Best Piercing Weapon in the Game [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Piercing Weapon in the Game [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jadehawk
05-10-07, 04:28 PM Last time I gamed our group did a round table as to the best ____ weapon for several scenarios. While we had different ideas at first we for the most part agreed at the end what is the best slashing, bludgeoning, ranged, reach, etc. weapon, as well as some alternates for particular builds. To derive our decision we considered damage potential, critical hit/damage potential, reach, damage types, combat versatility (range, multiple attacks, etc.), special attack/opposed roll modifiers, proficiency accessibility, and yes even cost as a tie breaker.

For some reason we could not agree on piercing weapons and at the end of the argument we were more confused about our own positions then what we started. Instead of discussing what we said, I was wondering if you guys could lay down your impartial opinions.

So what is the best piercing weapon in the game overall, and of course, WHY?

P.S. I can just feel someone about to say, "it depends on the build". For the most part I am looking for a balanced approach; so consider that simple weapons are more accessible than exotic ones, that certain weapons are nicer for dexterity based PCs and others for strength, and all other similar discrepencies...
Sajek
05-10-07, 04:49 PM The harpoon is a very attractive weapon. 1d10 damage, nice crit, can be thrown, has a controlling rope, and to remove it, your victim must yank it out, dealing the samge damage as when it went in. The only real disadvantage is that it's two handed, but that's nothing a Monkey Grip can't take care of.
jaelis
05-10-07, 05:00 PM Spiked chain is the best piercing weapon I know of. (Well, assuming you mean melee.)
kjenks
05-10-07, 05:03 PM The harpoon can ONLY be thrown. The rules don't say that you can use it for melee combat.

The lance is the best piercing weapon for melee. Double damage when mounted and a mighty fine 20/x3 crit. Wield it two-handed for that juicy 2x Power Attack and 1.5x Str bonus on damage.

A wooden lance with the Spikes spell on it beats the pants off of most swords and axes.
ChubbyJerk
05-10-07, 05:29 PM I really don't know how you can truly answer a question like this without knowing what type of build it's for.

However, I'll try anyway...One of my favorites would be the spiked chain - decent damage at 2d4, can be used for both trip attacks and disarm attempts, has an extra 5ft of reach, and it's finessable. Downsides - exotic, not great damage for a 2-hander.

A scythe is fairly similar - 2d4 damage (again, good but not great), can be used to trip, and a nice x4 crit modifier. Plus, it can do slashing damage and is martial instead of exotic. Add on improved critical and/or improved trip, and I like this weapon a lot. Plus, from my experience, it's not a typical choice. Doing something out of the ordinary can be fun.

Depending on the encounter, being able to effectively trip or disarm your opponent can be even more effective than just finding the weapon that deals the most damage. Plus, add on Improved Trip and you can also attack on a successful trip...that gets more into build-specific stuff though, which you're trying to avoid. ;)

Ignoring your build and looking more at the campaign can change the answer too. Are you dealing with a lot of large creatures, creatures with 4+ legs, etc? Trip won't do you much good (although I'm sure they'll always be some decent trippable fodder in any campaign) in those scenarios. That Nightmare-riding devil charging you won't like the results when you meet his charge with a halberd, though. Alternatively, if you're the one charging then a lance is devastating.

That's just me arguing against myself. If I had to pick one it would probably be the spiked chain.
jadehawk
05-10-07, 06:31 PM As is it sounds like spiked chain is the leader despite its exotic requirement and low damage potential.

Also still in the running is the lance and scythe, though someone may still further support the harpoon.

I will now lend a little insight as to other contenders introduced in my group debate.

Spear - easy access, regular damage, melee/range versatility

Dagger - easiest access, melee/range versatility, considered ammunition for range attack ROF, also can slash, concealable, light weapon benefits/drawbacks, low damage potential
PhaedrusXY
05-10-07, 06:43 PM Spiked Chain, then Lance.
Sajek
05-10-07, 06:46 PM Really? Harpoons cant be thrown? I will have to check on that when I get the chance.
Vharuck
05-10-07, 06:51 PM Dagger.

Can stab a person just fine, be easily concealed, and easily used for more out of combat functions than in combat functions (gotta tell you, only used my knife once in Boyscouts for combat, and after that I was no longer allowed to have one).

I'm just kidding, by the way. About my stabbing, not the dagger's awesomeness. It's still awesome.
RavenDrake
05-10-07, 07:05 PM Really? Harpoons cant be thrown? I will have to check on that when I get the chance.

Actually I think that he meant Harpoons can ONLY be thrown(they're listed as Ranged Weapons, not melee weapons with a range increment) so they have to be thrown to be effective.
Knute
05-10-07, 07:35 PM I'm partial to the halberd:

Good historical bkground
1d10 dam
Trip attack
Slashes as well
Cheap - 10gp

Its not a reach weapon but it's very flexible.
j3st3r
05-10-07, 07:51 PM If it's a ranged piercing weapon, Great Crossbow (amazing damage, critical and range).

If it's a melee piercing weapon, Tigerskull Club (amazing critical, piercing AND bludgeoning, +2 to disarm & trip).
RancorClaw
05-10-07, 07:56 PM The rapier is a good non-exotic weapon for a character dependant upon dexterity, since it can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. On top of that, if you enchant it to make it Keen, it has a 15-20 threat range.

The downside is it doesn't do much damage at only 1d6 and even a critical hit won't do a whole lot at only x2. (And with a low-strength character, it's going to do even less damage.)
StevenO
05-10-07, 10:43 PM I'd go with Composite Longbow although a Crossbow can be as good in some situations.

In melee so much depends on what you are actually looking for.
Cala, Legend Reborn
05-11-07, 07:15 AM The rapier is a good non-exotic weapon for a character dependant upon dexterity, since it can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. On top of that, if you enchant it to make it Keen, it has a 15-20 threat range.

The downside is it doesn't do much damage at only 1d6 and even a critical hit won't do a whole lot at only x2. (And with a low-strength character, it's going to do even less damage.)
The line of Elven blades (lightblade, thinblade, courtblade) in Races of the Wild do a lot of the things that rapiers do, except a bit better in some cases. Exotic weapons though. (An elf with Improved Weapon Familiarity or something can use them as martial).
RobbyPants
05-11-07, 11:00 AM A lot of these are repeats, but I'll considate this into a single list of my favorite picks:

Spiked chain - Swiss army knife of all weapons. Two-handed (good for Str bonus and Power Attack). Special reach (can be used adjacent). If I havd to pick one, this would be it.
Composite Longbow - Good range and ROF. Can be made to add your Str damage (expensive, though).
Scythe - Powerful crit and two-handed. If you crit with a Power Attack, this will be devistating
Lance - another goody (but only useful in a few situations). Powerful damage on a mounted charge.
Dagger - About anyone can use it. It can be concealed. It can be thrown. It can be finnessed. It can be used while grappled. Aside from the low damage, this one has many used.
Rapier - Good threat range on a one-handed martial weapon. Can be finnessed.
Pick - Good crit multiplier on a one-handed martial weapon.

There are more, for certain situations, but these are some popular choices. Again, if I had to pick one for the most situations, I'd choose the spiked chain.
JellyPooga
05-11-07, 11:23 AM Dagger - About anyone can use it.

Is there anyone who can't?

My personal favourite Piercing weapon would probably be the dagger simply 'cos what other weapon can you conceivably carry more than a dozen of on your person without anyone else knowing?. There's also the 'throw-it, slash-it, everyone-can-use-it' aspect too.

I'd probably have to say that the BEST piercing weapon (not my favourite) is probably the Spiked Chain. O.k. so it requires Ex.Weap.Prof, but it does have just about everything you could want in a weapon except concealabilty - Trip, Disarm, bettter-than-average damage, 2-handed, reach and close-quarter combat and optional Weapon Finesse. About the only thing you can't do with it is throw it (unless you take Exotic Weapon Master or the Throw Anything feat of course). I doubt any other weapon has that many options.
RobbyPants
05-11-07, 11:44 AM Is there anyone who can't?
As far as I know, every base class (certainly every core base class) can use it. I put in the "about" just in case there was some wierd exception of which I was unaware:
"Hey! The Daggerless Fighter class from Dragon #253 can't use daggers, noob!" :P
Dark1ord
05-11-07, 01:13 PM The only real disadvantage is that it's two handed, but that's nothing a Monkey Grip can't take care of.*cough* monkey grip doesn't work that way. the "mode of wielding" is the same - the size of the weapon wielded is all that's changed.

(sorry, had to say it - seeing this once in a while, still.)
Zanove
05-11-07, 04:39 PM i'd say trident then punching dagger
solbergb
05-11-07, 06:31 PM So what is the best piercing weapon in the game overall, and of course, WHY?
.

I'd have to go with ranseur for the martial weapons.

2x damage when set for charge, and being a reach weapon means that the +2 to disarm is useful even without improved disarm (and you get +4 more for it being a 2h weapon). I also prefer 2d4 damage to 1d8 or even 1d10 because it is more reliable. the x3 crit multiple is icing on the cake.

For the exotics, I suppose spiked chain has to be on the list.

For light weapons - armor spikes, because they're always there when you need them (eg, in a grapple, hands full with your ranseur) and can't be disarmed.
jaelis
05-11-07, 09:23 PM Ranseurs don't get double damage vs a charge, I'm afraid.
Vrellum
05-12-07, 10:10 AM The short sword is a good choice for some builds. For twf it allows you to apply all your feats (weapon focus, specialization, etc.) to both of your weapons.

It can also be combined with phalanx fighter, which gives an additional +1 AC to anyone using a heavy shield and a light weapon and the bonus increases to +3 AC and +1 reflex saves if when adjacent to another person with a heavy shield and light weapon.

The damage and crit range are pretty good for a light, one-handed martial weapon as well.
Garonak
05-12-07, 02:23 PM Ripper from Planar Handbook is quite nice. Two-handed martial melee weapon: 2d6, 19-20/x2
Azog_the_Firvin
05-13-07, 06:26 PM The weapon I see absent from this debate is the trident.

One-handed, so you can get the benefits of a shield. It can be set to receive a charge, and it can be thrown. And you can stick it in a spear slot if you have an Efficient Quiver. My mounted lancer uses a trident when he's not mounted so he doesn't lose the AC of his cool shield

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jadehawk 05-10-07, 04:28 PM	Last time I gamed our group did a round table as to the best ____ weapon for several scenarios. While we had different ideas at first we for the most part agreed at the end what is the best slashing, bludgeoning, ranged, reach, etc. weapon, as well as some alternates for particular builds. To derive our decision we considered damage potential, critical hit/damage potential, reach, damage types, combat versatility (range, multiple attacks, etc.), special attack/opposed roll modifiers, proficiency accessibility, and yes even cost as a tie breaker. For some reason we could not agree on piercing weapons and at the end of the argument we were more confused about our own positions then what we started. Instead of discussing what we said, I was wondering if you guys could lay down your impartial opinions. So what is the best piercing weapon in the game overall, and of course, WHY? P.S. I can just feel someone about to say, "it depends on the build". For the most part I am looking for a balanced approach; so consider that simple weapons are more accessible than exotic ones, that certain weapons are nicer for dexterity based PCs and others for strength, and all other similar discrepencies...
Sajek 05-10-07, 04:49 PM	The harpoon is a very attractive weapon. 1d10 damage, nice crit, can be thrown, has a controlling rope, and to remove it, your victim must yank it out, dealing the samge damage as when it went in. The only real disadvantage is that it's two handed, but that's nothing a Monkey Grip can't take care of.
jaelis 05-10-07, 05:00 PM	Spiked chain is the best piercing weapon I know of. (Well, assuming you mean melee.)
kjenks 05-10-07, 05:03 PM	The harpoon can ONLY be thrown. The rules don't say that you can use it for melee combat. The lance is the best piercing weapon for melee. Double damage when mounted and a mighty fine 20/x3 crit. Wield it two-handed for that juicy 2x Power Attack and 1.5x Str bonus on damage. A wooden lance with the Spikes spell on it beats the pants off of most swords and axes.
ChubbyJerk 05-10-07, 05:29 PM	I really don't know how you can truly answer a question like this without knowing what type of build it's for. However, I'll try anyway...One of my favorites would be the spiked chain - decent damage at 2d4, can be used for both trip attacks and disarm attempts, has an extra 5ft of reach, and it's finessable. Downsides - exotic, not great damage for a 2-hander. A scythe is fairly similar - 2d4 damage (again, good but not great), can be used to trip, and a nice x4 crit modifier. Plus, it can do slashing damage and is martial instead of exotic. Add on improved critical and/or improved trip, and I like this weapon a lot. Plus, from my experience, it's not a typical choice. Doing something out of the ordinary can be fun. Depending on the encounter, being able to effectively trip or disarm your opponent can be even more effective than just finding the weapon that deals the most damage. Plus, add on Improved Trip and you can also attack on a successful trip...that gets more into build-specific stuff though, which you're trying to avoid. ;) Ignoring your build and looking more at the campaign can change the answer too. Are you dealing with a lot of large creatures, creatures with 4+ legs, etc? Trip won't do you much good (although I'm sure they'll always be some decent trippable fodder in any campaign) in those scenarios. That Nightmare-riding devil charging you won't like the results when you meet his charge with a halberd, though. Alternatively, if you're the one charging then a lance is devastating. That's just me arguing against myself. If I had to pick one it would probably be the spiked chain.
jadehawk 05-10-07, 06:31 PM	As is it sounds like spiked chain is the leader despite its exotic requirement and low damage potential. Also still in the running is the lance and scythe, though someone may still further support the harpoon. I will now lend a little insight as to other contenders introduced in my group debate. Spear - easy access, regular damage, melee/range versatility Dagger - easiest access, melee/range versatility, considered ammunition for range attack ROF, also can slash, concealable, light weapon benefits/drawbacks, low damage potential
PhaedrusXY 05-10-07, 06:43 PM	Spiked Chain, then Lance.
Sajek 05-10-07, 06:46 PM	Really? Harpoons cant be thrown? I will have to check on that when I get the chance.
Vharuck 05-10-07, 06:51 PM	Dagger. Can stab a person just fine, be easily concealed, and easily used for more out of combat functions than in combat functions (gotta tell you, only used my knife once in Boyscouts for combat, and after that I was no longer allowed to have one). I'm just kidding, by the way. About my stabbing, not the dagger's awesomeness. It's still awesome.
RavenDrake 05-10-07, 07:05 PM	Really? Harpoons cant be thrown? I will have to check on that when I get the chance. Actually I think that he meant Harpoons can ONLY be thrown(they're listed as Ranged Weapons, not melee weapons with a range increment) so they have to be thrown to be effective.
Knute 05-10-07, 07:35 PM	I'm partial to the halberd: Good historical bkground 1d10 dam Trip attack Slashes as well Cheap - 10gp Its not a reach weapon but it's very flexible.
j3st3r 05-10-07, 07:51 PM	If it's a ranged piercing weapon, Great Crossbow (amazing damage, critical and range). If it's a melee piercing weapon, Tigerskull Club (amazing critical, piercing AND bludgeoning, +2 to disarm & trip).
RancorClaw 05-10-07, 07:56 PM	The rapier is a good non-exotic weapon for a character dependant upon dexterity, since it can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. On top of that, if you enchant it to make it Keen, it has a 15-20 threat range. The downside is it doesn't do much damage at only 1d6 and even a critical hit won't do a whole lot at only x2. (And with a low-strength character, it's going to do even less damage.)
StevenO 05-10-07, 10:43 PM	I'd go with Composite Longbow although a Crossbow can be as good in some situations. In melee so much depends on what you are actually looking for.
Cala, Legend Reborn 05-11-07, 07:15 AM	The rapier is a good non-exotic weapon for a character dependant upon dexterity, since it can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. On top of that, if you enchant it to make it Keen, it has a 15-20 threat range. The downside is it doesn't do much damage at only 1d6 and even a critical hit won't do a whole lot at only x2. (And with a low-strength character, it's going to do even less damage.) The line of Elven blades (lightblade, thinblade, courtblade) in Races of the Wild do a lot of the things that rapiers do, except a bit better in some cases. Exotic weapons though. (An elf with Improved Weapon Familiarity or something can use them as martial).
RobbyPants 05-11-07, 11:00 AM	A lot of these are repeats, but I'll considate this into a single list of my favorite picks: Spiked chain - Swiss army knife of all weapons. Two-handed (good for Str bonus and Power Attack). Special reach (can be used adjacent). If I havd to pick one, this would be it. Composite Longbow - Good range and ROF. Can be made to add your Str damage (expensive, though). Scythe - Powerful crit and two-handed. If you crit with a Power Attack, this will be devistating Lance - another goody (but only useful in a few situations). Powerful damage on a mounted charge. Dagger - About anyone can use it. It can be concealed. It can be thrown. It can be finnessed. It can be used while grappled. Aside from the low damage, this one has many used. Rapier - Good threat range on a one-handed martial weapon. Can be finnessed. Pick - Good crit multiplier on a one-handed martial weapon. There are more, for certain situations, but these are some popular choices. Again, if I had to pick one for the most situations, I'd choose the spiked chain.
JellyPooga 05-11-07, 11:23 AM	Dagger - About anyone can use it. Is there anyone who can't? My personal favourite Piercing weapon would probably be the dagger simply 'cos what other weapon can you conceivably carry more than a dozen of on your person without anyone else knowing?. There's also the 'throw-it, slash-it, everyone-can-use-it' aspect too. I'd probably have to say that the BEST piercing weapon (not my favourite) is probably the Spiked Chain. O.k. so it requires Ex.Weap.Prof, but it does have just about everything you could want in a weapon except concealabilty - Trip, Disarm, bettter-than-average damage, 2-handed, reach and close-quarter combat and optional Weapon Finesse. About the only thing you can't do with it is throw it (unless you take Exotic Weapon Master or the Throw Anything feat of course). I doubt any other weapon has that many options.
RobbyPants 05-11-07, 11:44 AM	Is there anyone who can't? As far as I know, every base class (certainly every core base class) can use it. I put in the "about" just in case there was some wierd exception of which I was unaware: "Hey! The Daggerless Fighter class from Dragon #253 can't use daggers, noob!" :P
Dark1ord 05-11-07, 01:13 PM	The only real disadvantage is that it's two handed, but that's nothing a Monkey Grip can't take care of.cough monkey grip doesn't work that way. the "mode of wielding" is the same - the size of the weapon wielded is all that's changed. (sorry, had to say it - seeing this once in a while, still.)
Zanove 05-11-07, 04:39 PM	i'd say trident then punching dagger
solbergb 05-11-07, 06:31 PM	So what is the best piercing weapon in the game overall, and of course, WHY? . I'd have to go with ranseur for the martial weapons. 2x damage when set for charge, and being a reach weapon means that the +2 to disarm is useful even without improved disarm (and you get +4 more for it being a 2h weapon). I also prefer 2d4 damage to 1d8 or even 1d10 because it is more reliable. the x3 crit multiple is icing on the cake. For the exotics, I suppose spiked chain has to be on the list. For light weapons - armor spikes, because they're always there when you need them (eg, in a grapple, hands full with your ranseur) and can't be disarmed.
jaelis 05-11-07, 09:23 PM	Ranseurs don't get double damage vs a charge, I'm afraid.
Vrellum 05-12-07, 10:10 AM	The short sword is a good choice for some builds. For twf it allows you to apply all your feats (weapon focus, specialization, etc.) to both of your weapons. It can also be combined with phalanx fighter, which gives an additional +1 AC to anyone using a heavy shield and a light weapon and the bonus increases to +3 AC and +1 reflex saves if when adjacent to another person with a heavy shield and light weapon. The damage and crit range are pretty good for a light, one-handed martial weapon as well.
Garonak 05-12-07, 02:23 PM	Ripper from Planar Handbook is quite nice. Two-handed martial melee weapon: 2d6, 19-20/x2
Azog_the_Firvin 05-13-07, 06:26 PM	The weapon I see absent from this debate is the trident. One-handed, so you can get the benefits of a shield. It can be set to receive a charge, and it can be thrown. And you can stick it in a spear slot if you have an Efficient Quiver. My mounted lancer uses a trident when he's not mounted so he doesn't lose the AC of his cool shield