Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xen_Quel 04-23-06, 12:33 PM	I think it is the great axe 1d12 x3crit. :banghead: :censored: :headexplo :censored: :banghead:
Novacat 04-23-06, 12:56 PM	Either that or the Greatsword: 2d6 damage, 19-20 (x2) crit The two weapons are equal in almost everything important, except that the Greatsword has a statistically average damage of 7, whilst the Greataxe has a statistically average damage of 6. For the same reason, the greataxe has a 1/12 chance to roll minimum/maximum damage, while the greatsword has a 1/36 chance of minimum/maximum damage. The difference in critical stats is an equal trade-off, so it's up to you.
Adam Smite 04-23-06, 01:10 PM	If you were to include Exotic weapons, there are any number of best two-handed weapons. I personally like the Goliath Greathammer and the Halberd. Halberds because they are still only martial, and they make it easier for you to perform many weapon tricks. The Greathammer because it is a 1d12 x4 crit with a bonus when sundering.
RaspK FOG 04-23-06, 01:18 PM	My personal favourite is the scythe, but I hate the whole concept; if it was a fauchard or glaive, sure, but as of know, I much prefer the greatsword, thanks.
Bulletproof_Condom 04-23-06, 02:15 PM	I think it is the great axe 1d12 x3crit. :banghead: :censored: :headexplo :censored: :banghead: What's with all the angry faces? Was someone hitting you with a greataxe while you typed that up?
supernerd8916 04-23-06, 02:26 PM	that would be interesting to see...
draconic_swine 04-23-06, 03:57 PM	Spiked chain. Decent damage, able to trip & bonus to disarm (with both being even more effective due to it being a two-handed weapon), finessable, and the ability to hit anything up to 10 feet away. What more could you ask for?
swindy 04-23-06, 04:03 PM	Its all a matter of opinion, greataxe, when it crits it is a nasty weapon, essentialy same goes for the scythe, but, the greatsword has abetter chance to crit. I have no favourite two handed weapon, but if i had to choosei would go for a scythe, its a x4 weapon, IF you crit with it its nasty combined with a high strength, but so are other weapons.
dengarbountyhunter 04-23-06, 04:15 PM	the double flail (what's it called? dire flail?) also offers you many options and decent damage for TWF...
StevenO 04-23-06, 04:45 PM	It depends on whay you want. From the PHB Standard: Greatsword, 2d6 19-20/x2 For Bigger Criticals and Coup-de-grace: Greataxe, 1d12 x3 If you Crit all the time with damage bonus: Scythe, 2d4 x4 For versatility and tricks: Spiked Chain
meatrace 04-23-06, 06:37 PM	for a basic weapon I like greatswords. especially large greatswords wielded by a half-giant (3d6 baby :)) for mechanics I like the spiked chain, very versatile, awesome whirlwind attacks since you threaten everyone within 10 feet hehe... for flavor I like the maul. d10 bludgeoning x3 crit, 1 handed with exotic weapon proficiency.
Gowron 04-23-06, 06:48 PM	I beleive the best basic weapon is Mercurial Greatsword it does 2d6 times 4 critical.
Tequila_Sunrise 04-23-06, 07:01 PM	I beleive the best basic weapon is Mercurial Greatsword it does 2d6 times 4 critical. I was going to bring up the Jovar from Planar Handbook (2d6, x3 crit) before I read this post. What book does the mercurial thing come from? As for greataxes, I've never understood why anyone would ever swing one in any situation period. 1d12 v. the greatsword's 2d6...there's no comparison!
Baron Rod 04-23-06, 07:04 PM	If you are going outside the PHB then from the CW is the Heavy Poleaxe. It takes a exotic weapon feat but it has 2d6 damage, x3 critical, 10 foot reach, slashing or piercing damage and can be set to receive a charge. If you want something for ease of play (what you will find in treasure piles I would go with the greatsword, it is classic) Baron Rod
Rulebook 04-23-06, 07:52 PM	anybody who says greatsword or greataxe dosent know math or high level games very well. the scythe, falchion, and spiked chain are the best 2h weapons in the PHB, and weapons like the Courtblade and any other x4 crit weapons are the best out of core. simply put: base weapon damage dosent matter past 10th level, but crit range and multiplier matter a lot. ergo, its much better to have a good crit weapon stacked out the yin-yang with magic, than anything else equally stacked. case in point, +1 keen Burst/burst/burst/burst weaponry... either unleash it all the time, or pound em into the dirt less often.
yourReality 04-23-06, 10:03 PM	greatsword.
Ashok_Lal 04-23-06, 10:25 PM	QUOTE:Tequila_Sunrise As for greataxes, I've never understood why anyone would ever swing one in any situation period. 1d12 v. the greatsword's 2d6...there's no comparison! Yea! You cant compair 1-12 to 2-12 god forbid! :confused: :rolleyes: Great axe has x3 crit. A keen axe and improved crit feat crits on 17-20 x3 Great sword has x2 crit. A keen sword & imp crit feat crits on 14-20 or 16-20 (im not sure which is right)but only x2 I personly like to have big multiplyers rather than large crit range. This is only a personal opinion. I have a rogue in our party with a keen rapeier and crits a lot but hte extra damage he gets is hardley worh it. When my figter (imp crit & keen) great axe) ooh the numbers that it spits out on a crit!
Sithraldor 04-24-06, 12:29 AM	QUOTE:Tequila_Sunrise As for greataxes, I've never understood why anyone would ever swing one in any situation period. 1d12 v. the greatsword's 2d6...there's no comparison! Yea! You cant compair 1-12 to 2-12 god forbid! :confused: :rolleyes: Great axe has x3 crit. A keen axe and improved crit feat crits on 17-20 x3 Great sword has x2 crit. A keen sword & imp crit feat crits on 14-20 or 16-20 (im not sure which is right)but only x2 I personly like to have big multiplyers rather than large crit range. This is only a personal opinion. I have a rogue in our party with a keen rapeier and crits a lot but hte extra damage he gets is hardley worh it. When my figter (imp crit & keen) great axe) ooh the numbers that it spits out on a crit! Ashok Lal unless you are using 3.0 I haven't read the 3.0 DMG and PHB so I not sure if it will work there either. But keen and Improved critical do not stack in 3.5.
Sithraldor 04-24-06, 01:04 AM	I once play a rogue/master thrower and had a +3 keen throwing returning acidic burst rapier and took deadeye shot as a trick with the DM promission, of course. So I had a weapon I could throw 20 feet (far shot) that deal 1d6+3/ +1d10 acid damage with a critical and had a 15-20/x3 critical ranged. You could adapt it to a greatsword and because your a probably a fighter you could take imp. crit and save money and space. [I]+3 throwing returning X burst greatsword[I]. 2d6+3 + burst 17-20/x3. Just a thought.
Mitchell 04-24-06, 03:38 AM	Using core only, non-exotic, two-handed weapons, then I would say either the greatsword, great axe, or halberd. The greatsword offers the best average damage, the largest crit range, the lowest weight, and the best hardness. The greataxe offers slightly less average damage than the greatsword and doesn't crit as often, but you are more likely to hit the high (and low) damage than you are with the greatsword, and it offers a higher crit multiplier. The halberd has the same crit range as the greataxe, and does less damage, but it can be used to trip, may be set against a charge, and can do either slashing or piercing damage. The only other weapons I would consider would be the guisarme or ranseur. Neither are spectacular, but they do have reach, and one may be used to trip, and the other provides a bonus to disarm attempts. But still, I don't feel that these abilities are enough. Now if you start dragging in exotics and weapons outside of the core rules, then you can find better and better stuff, but you have to draw a line somewhere, and I drew mine where I did.
mvincent 04-24-06, 03:48 PM	Not including the critical: the greatsword does a half a point damage (per hit) more than the great axe. As for the critical: two x2 criticals (sword) is better than one x3 critical (axe) because the x3 critical is more likely to be wasted on overkill. That said, a reach weapon presents more tactical opportunities, and the spiked chain presents even more. It is easily the best weapon available (assuming you have the feat/ability synergy to take advantage of its capabilities).
Rochlar 04-24-06, 05:14 PM	no one else has even brought it up, but I have just stopped playing a fighter with a dwarven warpike all the way up to lvl 23, and that weapon is great! 2d6, 20/x3, reach, can make trip attacks, deals slashing and piercing damage, and can be set against the charge! now all you have to do is get made large or larger, and you are the uber battlefield controller. btw, its in the races of stone.
Esponer 04-24-06, 06:09 PM	Spiked chain, and it's not even funny.
Hippokrene 04-24-06, 06:36 PM	Ashok_Lal: "QUOTE:Tequila_Sunrise As for greataxes, I've never understood why anyone would ever swing one in any situation period. 1d12 v. the greatsword's 2d6...there's no comparison! Yea! You cant compair 1-12 to 2-12 god forbid! :confused: :rolleyes: " A small math leason. With one d12, you have a one in twelve chance of rolling any number. With two d6, you have an array. ---01 02 03 04 05 06 --------------------- 1] 02 03 04 05 06 07 2] 03 04 05 06 07 08 3] 04 05 06 07 08 09 4] 05 06 07 08 09 10 5] 06 07 08 09 10 11 6] 07 08 09 10 11 12 It's a bell curve. That means that your damage is more consistent so you'll score a high number of 6s, 7s, and 8s. While you'll also have a lower chance of scoring a 12, you'll do more damage overall. As for two handed, I like the falchion or the elven courtblade.
Hippokrene 04-24-06, 08:26 PM	More mathematics. I decided to test the falchion (2d4 18-20/x2), against the greatsword (2d6 19-20/x2), and the greataxe (1d12 x3 crit.). I've added the Dwarven Warpike (2d6, 20 x3) First off, the average roll for a falchion would be: ---01 02 03 04 ----------------- 01]02 03 04 05 = 14 02]03 04 05 06 = 18 03]04 05 06 07 = 22 04]05 06 07 08 = 26 80/16 = 5 or 500 over 100 rolls. The average roll for a greatsword/drawven warpike would be: ---01 02 03 04 05 06 --------------------------- 01|02 03 04 05 06 07 = 27 02|03 04 05 06 07 08 = 33 03|04 05 06 07 08 09 = 39 04|05 06 07 08 09 10 = 45 05|06 07 08 09 10 11 = 51 06|07 08 09 10 11 12 = 57 27 + 33 +39 + 45 + 51 + 57 = 252/36 = 7 or 700 over 100 rolls The average roll for a greataxe would be: (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12)/12 = 6.5 or 650 over 100 rolls Without criticals, 100 rolls of damage would get you - Dwarven Warpike: 700 pts Greatsword: 700 pts Greataxe: 650 pts Falchion: 500 pts Now, let's do criticals. A falchion threatens a critical 3 out of 20 or 15% of the time, a greatsword threatens a critical 2 out of 20 or 10% of the time, a greataxe threatens a critical 1 out of 20 or 5% of the time. For the purpose of this next part, I'm going to assume that the character always rolls the second hit. F: 15% of 500 is 75 Gs: 10% of 700 is 70 Dwpk: 5% of 700 is 35 Ga: 5% of 650 is 32.5 For the greatsword and falchion, we'll minus the percentage from the base, times the percentage by two, and add it to the base. For the greataxe, we'll times do the same only we'll times it by 3. So… 500 - 75 = 425, 75 * 2 = 150, 425 + 150 = 575 700 - 70 = 630, 70 * 2 = 140, 630 + 140 = 770 700 - 35 = 665, 35 * 3 = 105, 665 + 105 = 770 650 - 32.5 = 617, 32.5 * 3 = 97.5, 617 + 97.5 = 714.5 With criticals, 100 rolls of damage would get you - Falchion: 575 Greatsword: 770 Dwarven Warpike: 770 Greataxe: 714.5 Improved critical for all three. Falchion (2d4 15-20/x2), against the greatsword (2d6 17-20/x2), the dwarven warpike (2d6, 19-20/x3), and the greataxe (1d12 19-20/x3) 500 * .30 = 150, 500-150 = 350, 150 * 2 = 300, 350 + 300 = 650 700 * .20 = 140, 700-140 = 560, 140 * 2 = 280, 560 + 280 = 840 700 * .10 = 070, 700-070 = 630, 070 * 3 = 210, 630 + 210 = 840 650 * .10 = 065, 650-065 = 585, 065 * 3 = 195, 585 + 195 = 780 With improved critical, 100 rolls of damage would get you - Greatsword and Dwarven Warpike: 840 Greataxe: 780 Falchion: 650 ----------------------------------------------------------------- Okay, now we will do with +5 str modifier and + 5 weapon enhancement. That means every +7 will be added to all damage for str and +5 for enhancement, meaning +12 to every roll. Greatsword/Dwarven Warpike -- ---01 02 03 04 05 06 --------------------------- 01|02 03 04 05 06 07 = 27 + 72 02|03 04 05 06 07 08 = 33 + 72 03|04 05 06 07 08 09 = 39 + 72 04|05 06 07 08 09 10 = 45 + 72 05|06 07 08 09 10 11 = 51 + 72 06|07 08 09 10 11 12 = 57 + 72 (252 + 576 = 828)/36 = 23 23 * 100 = 2,300 Greataxe --- (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12 + 144)/12 = 18.5 18.5 * 100 = 1850 Falchion --- ---01 02 03 04 ----------------- 01]02 03 04 05 = 14 + 48 02]03 04 05 06 = 18 + 48 03]04 05 06 07 = 22 + 48 04]05 06 07 08 = 26 + 48 272/16 = 17, 17*100 = 1,700 Without criticals, and with +5 str mod and +5 enhance, over 100 rolls: Greatsword/Dwarven Warpike: 2,300 Greataxe: 1,850 Falchion: 1,700 Now we'll add the criticals. F: 15% of 1,700 is 255 Gs: 10% of 2,300 is 230 Dwpk: 5% of 2,300 is 115 Ga: 5% of 1,850 is 92.5 1700-255 = 1445, 255*2 = 510, 1445 + 510 = 1955 2300-230 = 2070, 230*2 = 460, 2070 + 460 = 2530 2300-115 = 2185, 115*3 = 345, 2185+345 = 2530 1850-92.5= 1757.5, 92.5 * 3 = 277.5, 1757.5+277.5 = 2035 With criticals, and with +5 str mod and +5 enhance, over 100 rolls: Greatsword/Dwarven Warpike: 2530 Greataxe: 2035 Falchion: 1955 So, with or without crits, the greatsword and dwarven warpike is the best of the four weapons listed. If anyone sees a problem with the math, feel free to chime in. Thank you Dale!
Hippokrene 04-24-06, 08:43 PM	Dwarven Warpike (2d6, 20 x3) Same base damage as the greatsword: 7 or 700 over 100 rolls 5% of 700 is 35 700 - 35 = 665, 35 * 3 = 105, 665 + 105 = 770 Same damage as the greatsword either way.
Tordek 04-24-06, 09:09 PM	I like the mercurial greatsword, which is x4.
mvincent 04-24-06, 09:37 PM	So, with or without crits, the greatsword is the best of the three weapons listed. If anyone sees a problem with the math, feel free to chime in.Your calculations for the falchion to not take into account damage bonuses from strength, enhancements etc. (which are also multiplied with the critical). When comparing Great Axe/sword, it doesn't make a difference, but it makes a difference when comparing the falchion (unless you were comparing it to say, a scythe) Also, the addition of improved crit can certainly swing the balance in favor of the falchion for many fighters. Same damage as the greatsword either way.The warpike will still have a much greater chance of generating "wasted" damage than the greatsword (i.e. overkill damage)
Mass_Assassin 04-24-06, 10:30 PM	Fullblade, Arms and Equipment Guide. A full 18 inches longer than the greatsword, deals 2d8 damage with 19-20/x2 crit. It's a monster of a weapon. :smirk:
Hippokrene 04-25-06, 02:49 AM	mvincent: "Your calculations for the falchion to not take into account damage bonuses from strength, enhancements etc. (which are also multiplied with the critical). When comparing Great Axe/sword, it doesn't make a difference, but it makes a difference when comparing the falchion (unless you were comparing it to say, a scythe)" Good idea. I'll add in the stats for str of 20 (+5) wielding a +5 weapon. "Also, the addition of improved crit can certainly swing the balance in favor of the falchion for many fighters." Give me a moment and I'll add improved crit to the number.
eagleye 04-25-06, 03:54 AM	It all depends on how you difine "best" ofcourse. If you mean the most damage, you have your options from any of the weapons already mentioned. But you could also consider the less obvious spiked chain for instance. A fighter specialised in this tactical weapon has a plethora of wonderful tactics at his disposal.
babysamurai 04-25-06, 08:27 AM	I was going to bring up the Jovar from Planar Handbook (2d6, x3 crit) The Jovar is: (2d6/18-20). ...The ripper is pretty cool as well.
Ash the blackcowl 04-25-06, 11:47 AM	I love the heavy flail. Dont know the math but it's just cool, and that trumps math in RPG's any day of the week.
mvincent 04-25-06, 12:10 PM	it's just cool, and that trumps math in RPG's any day of the week.Especially on Lookcoolwhilelosingafightday.* *Not all campaign worlds have this weekday** **Sometimes known as Tyr's-day
Father Dale 04-25-06, 06:57 PM	How did you get average damage on a falchion as 6? Shouldn't it be 5? avg roll on d4 = 2.5 avg of 1d4 + 1d4 = ? (2.5 + 2.5) = 5 or with an array: -| 1 2 3 4 1| 2 3 4 5 = 14 2| 3 4 5 6 = 18 3| 4 5 6 7 = 22 4| 5 6 7 8 = 26 14 + 18 + 22 + 26 = 80 80/16=5
supernerd8916 04-25-06, 07:32 PM	dale is absolutely right. for any dice, take the number of dice, add one and divide by two and you get the average damage. Thus: 4+1=5, 5/2= 2.5
Hippokrene 04-25-06, 07:36 PM	Dale, This is why I always ask people to check my math... Supernerd, Err... No, 2.5 is not correct for the falchron. By your reasoning a 3d4 and 3d6s have the same average value.
mvincent 04-25-06, 07:55 PM	Ok, I have an average damage of: falchion=5 greatsword=7 With criticals falchion=5+(15%)=5.75 greatsword=7+(10%)=7.7 With improved crit (or keen): falchion=5+(30%)=6.5 greatsword=7+(20%)=8.4 With +10 points of damage from strength and or enhancements: falchion=15+(30%)=19.5 greatsword=17+(20%)=20.4 With +20 points of bonus damage from adders (strength, enhancement, weapon specialization, power-attack, buffs, etc.): falchion=25+(30%)=32.5 greatsword=27+(20%)=32.4 So, it seems that the falchion doesn't start to become useful until you start doing large amounts of damage (let's say +1 weapon, 22 strength and powerattack -5 for a total +20 bonus to damage). Note: this doesn't account for creatures that are immune to criticals, or for wasted damage from overkill, but it also doesn't account for overcoming DR. Also, it appears that the keen ability doesn't become more useful than an elemental enhancement (3.5 average damage) until you have +19 points of damage adders (with a falchion) or +28 extra damage (with a greatsword).
Rulebook 04-25-06, 08:09 PM	track it over 20 swings. the falchion will be a bit ahead because it'll crit a few times more.
mvincent 04-25-06, 08:28 PM	track it over 20 swings. the falchion will be a bit ahead because it'll crit a few times more.Er... I don't think you caught the math involved (assuming you were referring to the previous post).
supernerd8916 04-25-06, 08:35 PM	Supernerd, Err... No, 2.5 is not correct for the falchron. By your reasoning a 3d4 and 3d6s have the same average value. I'm not sure what you mean by 3d6 and 3d4 being the same, however, the damage I gave you is the average for one dice. for two (falchion) you would add both together. thus 5. which is the number dale suggested. 6+1=7, 7/2=3.5, 3.5x3=10.5 4+1=5, 5/2=2.5, 2.5x3=7.5 not the same. although if you still think it is, please elaborate.
Chikngizrd 04-25-06, 09:39 PM	Supernerd, this was your original quote. dale is absolutely right. for any dice, take the number of dice, add one and divide by two and you get the average damage. Thus: 4+1=5, 5/2= 2.5 emphasis mine. According to this 3d4 and 3d6 would, in fact, have the same average. However, I think most people that have played for a while realize you meant "take the die type and add 1". Hippokrene is simply responding to what was actually posted.
Thorak 04-26-06, 02:08 AM	A whole bunch of far too complicated math Y'know, there's a much easier way to calculate the average roll on a die (or any range of numbers, for that matter). Add the lowest value to the highest, and divide by 2. 2d6, for instance. A d6 is 1-6, so 1+6=7, 7/2=3.5. There're two of em, so 3.5*2=7. Or, 1d12. 1+12=13, 13/2=6.5 Note I reach the exact same numbers you do, and I save about three pages of room. Arrays only prove this general rule true the incredibly long way around. Oh, and for all those pushing Exotic weapons, remember you need proficiency. In most cases, you get more out of that feat elsewhere than you get out of the weapon. If I weren't a Fighter, I don't think I'd even consider taking an EWP, too many other better feats out there.
Father Dale 04-26-06, 02:53 AM	Yeah thats one way to do it. In DnD you've got your basic dice, all of which are even numbered. For an even numbered die, the average roll will be 1/2 the max plus .5. So a d8 does 4.5 (1/2 of 8, plus .5). So for your DnD dice: 1d4 = avg 2.5 1d6 = avg 3.5 1d8 = avg 4.5 1d10 = avg 5.5 1d12 = avg 6.5 1d20 = avg 10.5 1d100= avg 50.5 To get the average of multiple similiar dice, mulitply the average by the number of dice: 2d4 = 2 x 2.5 = 5 2d6 = 2 x 3.5 = 7 4d8 = 4 x 4.5 = 18 10d6 = 10 x 3.5 = 35 15d6 = 15 x 3.5 = 52.5 (easy way is avg of 10d6 which is 35 plus avg of 5d6 which is 17.5; those are good numbers to remember anyways) 40d6 = 40 x 3.5 =140 (equivalent of 20th CL disintigrate on failed save) And I agree with Thorak, theres more things to consider than avg damage for a weapon, and spending a feat on an exotic weapon usually isn't an optimal choice. Spiked Chain is about the only one realy worth while, due to its unique reach ability plus its benefits with certain combat maneuvers. (although some builds could get use out of an exotic double weapon.) Otherwise, the extra damage that you get from most exotic weapons could be achieved more efficiently through weapon spec, power attack, or even weapon focus (exchanging the att bonus for power attack damage). For instance, exotic weapon prof bastard sword is a horrible waste of a feat since it lets you use a one handed weapon that does 1d10 rather than 1d8 for a very similiar longsword. Thats an average of 1pt of damage, hardly worth a feat. You'd be better off taking WF longsword or Weapon Spec longsword.
Hippokrene 04-26-06, 03:11 AM	Chikngizrd: "According to this 3d4 and 3d6 would, in fact, have the same average. However, I think most people that have played for a while realize you meant "take the die type and add 1". Hippokrene is simply responding to what was actually posted." The nail has been firmly hit on the head. This actually reminds me of when D&D 3.0 first came out. It was touted as a streamlined, system based around d20. I picked it up and soon realized that what 'd20 system' really meant was that it was a system that required twenty types of die to play. Thorak: " Note I reach the exact same numbers you do, and I save about three pages of room." Nevertheless, I doubt that you had as much fun as I did.
Evil Wizard 04-26-06, 04:41 PM	Since someone is bound to ask, for my own amusement I added a few numbers onto Hippokrene's (adjusted) totals to calculate how much extra damage a burst enchantment would add for each weapon. The extra 1d6 for the elemental damage on normal strikes is omitted because it more or less improves each weapon equally, and needlessly complicates the math. Average roll of 1d10 is 5.5. Assuming Improved Critical, over 100 swings, we add: Greatsword (20%) = +110 Greataxe (10%) = +55 * 2 = +110 Falchion (30%) = +165 2280 + 110 = 2390 2220 + 110 = 2330 2210 + 165 = 2375 With Improved Critical, +5 strength, +5 enchantment, and burst enchantment: Greatsword: 2390 Greataxe: 2330 Falchion: 2375 The falchion actually comes out ahead of the greataxe. The greatsword is still slightly better, though. Just out of curiosity, I did it again, assuming +5 strength, a +1 enhancement, and four burst enchantments. So +8 to damage rolls: Greatsword: 7 + 8 = 15 * 100 = 1500 Greataxe: 6.5 + 8 = 14.5 * 100 = 1450 Falchion: 5 + 8 = 13 * 100 = 1300 1500 + 10% (150) = 1650 1450 + 5% (72.5) = 1595 1300 + 15% (195) = 1495 With all four bursts: 5.5 * 4 = 22 10 * 22 = 220, 1650 + 220 = 1870 5 * 22 = 110, 1595 + (110 *2) = 1815 15 * 22 = 330, 1495 + 330 = 1825 Greatsword: 1870 Greataxe: 1815 Falchion: 1825 And with Improved Critical: 150 + 220 = 370, 1870 + 370 = 2240 72.5 + 220 = 292.5, 1815 + 292.5 = 2107.5 195 + 330 = 525, 1825 + 330 = 2155 With +5 strength, +1 enchantment, four burst enchantments, and Improved Critical: Greatsword: 2240 Greataxe: 2107.5 Falchion: 2155 So it looks like for all intents and purposes, the three weapons stay about the same no matter what you do to them. The falchion's higher critical range doesn't really compensate for its lower average damage. Oddly, the greatsword seems to benefit more from lots of burst damage than the falchion, unless I screwed up the math somewhere. On the other hand, with the numbers adjusted, the greatsword isn't ahead by that significant a margin. At worst the falchion only does around 5% less damage than the greatsword. With just the one burst enchantment, the two are neck and neck. So, technically the greatsword is mechanically better, but in the long run it really doesn't seem to matter what you're swinging around. It all averages out to about the same. [EDIT: Used the correct damage numbers for the greatsword, and remembered to really account for Improved Critical this time. Commentary adjusted to reflect the new numbers.]
Thorak 04-26-06, 06:20 PM	With criticals, and with +5 str mod and +5 enhance, over 100 rolls: Greatsword/Dwarven Warpike: 2530 Greataxe: 2035 Falchion: 1955 So, with or without crits, the greatsword and dwarven warpike is the best of the four weapons listed. If anyone sees a problem with the math, feel free to chime in. Thank you Dale! While I don't disagree that the Greatsword is likely the best, it seems to have a bit too large a margin, here. So here's my breakdown, starting from scratch. Average damage for a greatsword's 2d6 is 7, 3.5 per d6. Average for a greataxe's; 6.5 And a Falchion; 5. So, we assume a +5 weapon and +5 Strength bonus, as well, for +12 damage per hit. Over 100 hits, that's +1200 independent of weapon each, on the bases of 700, 650, and 500, bringing our pre-critical totals to; Average damage, no crits: Greatsword; 1900 Greataxe; 1850 Falchion; 1700 Now, criticals. Here's where I disagree. The greatsword has a 10% chance of critting, and deals double damage on the crit. This means, assuming averages, out of 100 hits, you crit 10 times, and get an extra hit's worth of damage on each. So, since it deals 19 damage per hit, that's 190 extra damage. So, Greatsword, with crit, is 2090. A Falchion would get 15 crits, and an extra 17 damage a hit, for 255 extra damage. With crit, a Falchion averages 1955. And a greataxe crits 5% of the time, for two extra hits' worth of damage per crit; a x3 multiplier. So it deals 18.5 damage a hit, doubled for 37 extra damage a crit, and 5 crits, for 185 extra damage. Bringing the Greataxe, with crit, to 2035 Average damage, normal crits included Greatsword: 2090 Greataxe: 2035 Falchion; 1955. You got the same numbers for the greataxe and falchion, but I have no idea how you translated the 0.5 damage average advantage of the greatsword into almost 1/5th more damage. And, for clarity, with Improved Critical or Keen, you add the extra crit damage again, as far as the math goes. So the totals would be; Average damage, doubled crit range Greatsword; 2280 Greataxe; 2220 Falchion; 2210 You'll see the numbers get closer together; this shows that improving the critical range benefits an 18-20 and a x3 crit range more than it does a 19-20 crit range. In short, yes, the greatsword is statistically better, especially at lower damage outputs, but not by nearly the same margin you claimed.
supernerd8916 04-26-06, 09:00 PM	dale is absolutely right. for any dice, take the number of dice, add one and divide by two and you get the average damage. Thus: 4+1=5, 5/2= 2.5 sry, this was a typo. I meant the number of sides. :embarrass
Evil Wizard 04-26-06, 11:17 PM	Oops. I spy two really ugly math errors, on review. One mine, one Hippokreme's. Hippokreme gets such massively large numbers in his appraisal of the greatsword because he's getting a total of 23 for average dice roll plus damage mods, when it should be 7 + 12 = 19. Good catch, Thorak. My own results are off since I was using his numbers, but I also realized that I was using the base crit ranged instead of what you actually get with Improved Critical. I was totally not paying attention to anything this morning. :embarrass With the numbers a little more correct, I'll redo my earlier post and see what I get.
calvayne 04-28-06, 02:53 AM	There was some discussion about a mercurial greatsword. what book is this located in?
witheygull 04-28-06, 05:11 AM	Mercurial greatsword and fullblade are in the Arms and Equipment Guide.
SolkaTruesilver 04-28-06, 12:46 PM	No one ever talked about it, but I have a build-up for a Human Fighter.. and he's kinda a king with the Heavy Flail. Improved Disarm: You get a +10 bonus to your check, simply for the fact that you have 2 handed weapon, improved disarm and a 2-h weapon. then, when the guy tries to pick up the weapon.. AoO! AoO: Improved Trip: You get a +4 to hit, and you are not being tripped yourself if you fail your trip attempt. Off course, you get a free attack, you use PowerAttack, -4 attack (just to compensate for the +4 to attack you get from attacking a prone target) + 8 damages. when he tries to get up, Power attack AoO, and he is still disarmed! :D Never had the chance to use it, tho. I guess my DM would use a lot of 6-handed, 6-legged monster to prevent me from trips/disarm attempts. Heavy Flail, for the fun! :-) (Greatsword for the rest)
Mass_Assassin 04-28-06, 06:44 PM	I'm telling you, it's all about the fullblade!
forrestfire15 04-28-06, 07:08 PM	telenta sharrash: damage:1d10 critical:19-20/x4 10ft reach :cool:
Killion 04-28-06, 07:15 PM	There is no discussion here. It is clearly the fullblade.
Durath 04-29-06, 11:42 PM	The fullblade is a huge weapon and only usable by large characters (see errata). The merecutial longsword was nerfed also, I believe by damage die and critical modifier. But as for the Falchion, Great Axe and Greatsword, I think the Falchion is best. The example is best shown by looking at extremes. Assume +10 strength bonus (so +15 str damage), +5 enhancement, and power attacking for 5 (so +10 damage). Let's assume we are talking about a keen weapon. And since we have this massive strength score let's assume every possible critical is a critical (have you guys been factoring that in?) Average Damage: F (5), A(6.5), S (7) Over 20 swings: F(200), A(390), S(280) Bonus Damage: F(360), A(570), S(520) Totals: F(560), A(570), S(520) Results: Greatsword loses. Now look what happens if you oh.... I dunno use shock trooper and power attack for 20. Yea your ac is crap but who cares, you'll make em pay! Bonus Damage: F(720), A(360), S(480) Totals: F(920), A(750), S(760) The Falchion pulls WAY ahead. Ok so you're now saying you'll never get to do that to an enemy and live. Oh really? I think not, I'll just use it in one on one situations and the like with the elusive target feat. And how will I achieve +10 stength? At level 2 as a half-ogre with 18 strength you can have a +6 bonus. Ok so now look at what happens if you use shock trooper and leap attack: (60+15+5) F(1160), A(710), S(920) The Falchion is the clear winner and now the Great Axe is pulling up the rear. (Note to self: recalculate with 1 step larger weapons!)
Father Dale 04-30-06, 01:31 AM	Well I think we can compare the Falchion, Greatsword, and Greataxe without all the math. And lets keep up the assumption that every threaten is a critical. The Falchion does the least damage, with 5 on average, but has a crit range of 18-20. The Greatsword edges out the Greataxe only slightly at 7 vs 6.5. GS crits on 19-29 and GAxw only on 20 but does x3 damage. Now at higher levels, those are minor differences in damage, 0.5, 1.5, and 2.0 pts. The crit ranges on the GS and GA are basically similiar, since the extra criticals by the GS will match up with the extra critical damage of the GA. The GS will crit twice as often, but the GA will crit for twice as much damage, and this will balance out. Hypothetically, say each weapon does 20pts of damage exactly on each hit. Over 20 swings assumign each possible roll comes up, the GS will crit one additional time, doing 40pts of damage twice on the criticals on the rolls of 19 and 20, for a total of 80pts on 19 and 20 combined. The Greataxe will crit only once on a roll of 20, but will do 60pts. Add in the 20pts when the GA rolls a 19 and you get 80pts, same as the GA. So the GS should come out ahead only slightly due to the .5 damage difference. But the Falchion does x2 critical damage on rolls of 18, 19, and 20. That extra critical should far outweigh the additional 1.5 or 2.0 pts of damage that the other weapons will do, especially at higher levels where a critical can do an additional 40 or 50 pts of damage or more. Anything that increases damage that would be multiplied on a crit will push the Falchion ahead of the others. Same goes for the Scythe, which matches up with the Falchion crit wise. There are other factors to consider on these weapons. The Greataxe and Scythe have base 5 hardness vs the 10 of the Greatsword and Falchion. All have base 10 hitpionts. The Scythe does piercing or slashing damage while the others do only slashing. Also, the Scythe can be used as a trip weapon. But on the other hand, a Greatsword and a Greataxe are much more likely to come up as random treasure (see the random weapon chart in the DMG.) Whenever a random weapon is rolled up, there is a 7% chance each for the Greatsword and Greataxe to get rolled. (70% x 10%). There is only a 0.2% chance each for the Falchion and Scythe (10% x 2%). So the GA and GS are much easier to come by, which might make a difference if you are putting feats into things like Weapon Focus and Spec and Improved Critical.
BrowncoatF 04-30-06, 01:50 AM	Fools! clearly the greatest two handed weapon is CHUCK NORRIS! 'nuff said
mvincent 04-30-06, 01:56 AM	Sword-chucks!
dengarbountyhunter 04-30-06, 04:14 PM	I see you guys doing so much math and all that stuff, while DnD is a GAME (check what "game" means in the dictionary ;) ) and not a math test... I am not against the tactic of calculating damage so precisely, but I just prefer to use whatever weapon fits best the character's look and likes... But if you prefer it that way, it's up to you...
mvincent 04-30-06, 05:57 PM	DnD is a GAME (check what "game" means in the dictionary ;)Done (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=game). I'm unsure how it supports your supposition that calculating the odds in a game is a superfluous activity (or that participating in such activity is hurting wrong fun).
Durath 05-01-06, 01:54 AM	First, I confess, I happen to like math. Second, my calculations were extremely simple and took less than 5 minutes. I was just proving to you that my opinion is correct.
Vrellum 05-01-06, 07:37 AM	If you take levels in exotic weapons master then dwarven waraxe and bastard sword are very good. You can get X2 str bonus damage if you wield them two handed, you can trip with them, etc. All said though, the spiked chain is probably the best. The duom is also good.
Ramacass 05-02-06, 04:08 AM	My picks- Martial: Glaive (reach more than makes up for the 1.5 less average damage than the great sword) Exotic: Spiked Chain
The Crimson Dawn 05-02-06, 04:08 PM	I personally love the Talenta Sharesh, 1)reach weapon 2)trip weapon 3)1D10 dmg 4)19-20/X4 Crit! Sweet damage and tactical options plus it looks like a scythe and I LOVE the scariness of using a scythe with my characters!
Durath 05-02-06, 05:01 PM	What book is that from?
dokesa 05-02-06, 05:15 PM	What book is that from?It's from the Eberron Campaign Setting, but it's been errataed to 19-20/x2.
Elthbert 05-02-06, 05:39 PM	More mathematics. I decided to test the falchion (2d4 18-20/x2), against the greatsword (2d6 19-20/x2), and the greataxe (1d12 x3 crit.). I've added the Dwarven Warpike (2d6, 20 x3) First off, the average roll for a falchion would be: ---01 02 03 04 ----------------- 01]02 03 04 05 = 14 02]03 04 05 06 = 18 03]04 05 06 07 = 22 04]05 06 07 08 = 26 80/16 = 5 or 500 over 100 rolls. The average roll for a greatsword/drawven warpike would be: ---01 02 03 04 05 06 --------------------------- 01|02 03 04 05 06 07 = 27 02|03 04 05 06 07 08 = 33 03|04 05 06 07 08 09 = 39 04|05 06 07 08 09 10 = 45 05|06 07 08 09 10 11 = 51 06|07 08 09 10 11 12 = 57 27 + 33 +39 + 45 + 51 + 57 = 252/36 = 7 or 700 over 100 rolls The average roll for a greataxe would be: (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12)/12 = 6.5 or 650 over 100 rolls Without criticals, 100 rolls of damage would get you - Dwarven Warpike: 700 pts Greatsword: 700 pts Greataxe: 650 pts Falchion: 500 pts Now, let's do criticals. A falchion threatens a critical 3 out of 20 or 15% of the time, a greatsword threatens a critical 2 out of 20 or 10% of the time, a greataxe threatens a critical 1 out of 20 or 5% of the time. For the purpose of this next part, I'm going to assume that the character always rolls the second hit. F: 15% of 500 is 75 Gs: 10% of 700 is 70 Dwpk: 5% of 700 is 35 Ga: 5% of 650 is 32.5 For the greatsword and falchion, we'll minus the percentage from the base, times the percentage by two, and add it to the base. For the greataxe, we'll times do the same only we'll times it by 3. So… 500 - 75 = 425, 75 * 2 = 150, 425 + 150 = 575 700 - 70 = 630, 70 * 2 = 140, 630 + 140 = 770 700 - 35 = 665, 35 * 3 = 105, 665 + 105 = 770 650 - 32.5 = 617, 32.5 * 3 = 97.5, 617 + 97.5 = 714.5 With criticals, 100 rolls of damage would get you - Falchion: 575 Greatsword: 770 Dwarven Warpike: 770 Greataxe: 714.5 Improved critical for all three. Falchion (2d4 15-20/x2), against the greatsword (2d6 17-20/x2), the dwarven warpike (2d6, 19-20/x3), and the greataxe (1d12 19-20/x3) 500 * .30 = 150, 500-150 = 350, 150 * 2 = 300, 350 + 300 = 650 700 * .20 = 140, 700-140 = 560, 140 * 2 = 280, 560 + 280 = 840 700 * .10 = 070, 700-070 = 630, 070 * 3 = 210, 630 + 210 = 840 650 * .10 = 065, 650-065 = 585, 065 * 3 = 195, 585 + 195 = 780 With improved critical, 100 rolls of damage would get you - Greatsword and Dwarven Warpike: 840 Greataxe: 780 Falchion: 650 ----------------------------------------------------------------- Okay, now we will do with +5 str modifier and + 5 weapon enhancement. That means every +7 will be added to all damage for str and +5 for enhancement, meaning +12 to every roll. Greatsword/Dwarven Warpike -- ---01 02 03 04 05 06 --------------------------- 01|02 03 04 05 06 07 = 27 + 72 02|03 04 05 06 07 08 = 33 + 72 03|04 05 06 07 08 09 = 39 + 72 04|05 06 07 08 09 10 = 45 + 72 05|06 07 08 09 10 11 = 51 + 72 06|07 08 09 10 11 12 = 57 + 72 (252 + 576 = 828)/36 = 23 23 * 100 = 2,300 Greataxe --- (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12 + 144)/12 = 18.5 18.5 * 100 = 1850 Falchion --- ---01 02 03 04 ----------------- 01]02 03 04 05 = 14 + 48 02]03 04 05 06 = 18 + 48 03]04 05 06 07 = 22 + 48 04]05 06 07 08 = 26 + 48 272/16 = 17, 17*100 = 1,700 Without criticals, and with +5 str mod and +5 enhance, over 100 rolls: Greatsword/Dwarven Warpike: 2,300 Greataxe: 1,850 Falchion: 1,700 Now we'll add the criticals. F: 15% of 1,700 is 255 Gs: 10% of 2,300 is 230 Dwpk: 5% of 2,300 is 115 Ga: 5% of 1,850 is 92.5 1700-255 = 1445, 255*2 = 510, 1445 + 510 = 1955 2300-230 = 2070, 230*2 = 460, 2070 + 460 = 2530 2300-115 = 2185, 115*3 = 345, 2185+345 = 2530 1850-92.5= 1757.5, 92.5 * 3 = 277.5, 1757.5+277.5 = 2035 With criticals, and with +5 str mod and +5 enhance, over 100 rolls: Greatsword/Dwarven Warpike: 2530 Greataxe: 2035 Falchion: 1955 So, with or without crits, the greatsword and dwarven warpike is the best of the four weapons listed. If anyone sees a problem with the math, feel free to chime in. Thank you Dale! Yeah I see a problem. Your figures do not take into account the greater multiplier of a great axe a great axe does more damage on a crit on average than a greatsword which your math deos not account for. A Great axe does an average of 19.5 points of damage on a crit whereas the GS only does and average of 14 on a crit, Your calculations do not take this into account--- furthermore the +'s are even more infavor of a Great Axe with a +5 str and +5 enhancement a GA will do 49.5 points of damage on average whereas a GS will only do 34 Your calculations do not account for this in anyway.
Kelwyn 05-02-06, 05:59 PM	Imho the Gyrspike is a somewhat interesting weapon too, its effectively like wielding a hammer and a sword, pretty flexible
Lluks 05-02-06, 06:02 PM	It's from the Eberron Campaign Setting, but it's been errataed to 19-20/x2. Yeah, I was gonna say that weapon too. When I saw that I was blown away. Medium threat range, ultimate crit dam., strong base damage, reach weapon... I wouldn't let the players use it. Good lord, it just wouldn't be fair. Consider: A barbarian who always power attacks at full (and before you say he never hits, I've seen and played the build, and he hits quite regularly), has combat reflexes and a respectable dex, and pumps his strength up to Arnold Schwarzzenegger in his prime level with magic items and what have you? He would demolish enemies everytime he hits, Pwn much higher CRs if he crits, Anytime someone got close enough to hit him he would get an attack of opportunity on them... He's a veritable monster, even before he get imp. crit., and imagine... what if he was enlarged... the horror... the horror... the horror... PS: on top of everything else, the weapon costed as much as a regular scythe, and that weapon aside I like the scythe if I'm a barbarian, the spiked chain if a fighter, the falchion if a cleric (I'll spend a feat), Two bastard swords if a ranger, and a longspear if a sorcerer.
Thubby 05-02-06, 06:22 PM	full blade all the way, it is THE most damaging weapon you can wield without magic
TheGroke 05-02-06, 09:34 PM	This Weapon (exotic granted) in the hands of a 15th level Psychic Weapons Master can crit from 13-20 (Jovar 18-20, Improved Critical, +2 bonus from class) and has a X3 damage on sucess a number of times a day. Along with the ability to load it with burst abilities as a class feature. A specialised build is needed to be sure but very tasty none the less.
Durath 05-03-06, 01:09 AM	Psionics are only balanced around every critter in the campaign having psionics.