Best way to defeat a charger (question) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best way to defeat a charger (question) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
VanRiper
06-12-06, 09:04 AM What is the most effective (either amount of damage dealt or some other incapacitating technique) way to defeat a mounted charger coming right at you?
Father Dale
06-12-06, 09:37 AM 1. Destroy the Mount

2. Hinder movement so that they can't charge. Spells like Solid Fog or Wall of Stone. Even obscuring mist will work since they can't see well enough to charge through the mist.

3. Make them fatigued or exhastued so that they can't charge or run. Waves of Fatigue works good since there is no save. But even touch of fatigue or ray of exhaustion can work, although they both have fort saves.

4. Remove the rider from the mount. You can use a trip check to remove a rider from the mount, although its difficult since the rider can make a Ride check instead of a trip check to stay in his saddle. And most mounted combatants have a much better ride check then their Str/Dex check.
CryoSilver
06-12-06, 09:42 AM Reach weapon + set against charge + Hold the Line = double damage AoO at reach; you can probably drop the mount in one hit.
OravennasBrother
06-12-06, 10:04 AM Broken terrain - you can't hcarge through terrain which hinders movement, so any uneven surface will do. Even if you have to dig a few 1' deep holes to break the legs of the mount, yuo can generally find broken terrain. FWIW - solid rock surfaces are seldom flat and even enough for a charge, so that should not be a major issue.
Sunrider
06-12-06, 10:04 AM Hold the Line + Improved Disarm + two-handed reach weapon with Disarm bonus + Deft Opportunist + Combat Reflexes + Stand Still

Assuming you're Medium, facing a Medium lancer mounted on a Large mount:

AoO from Hold the Line - use it to Disarm the lance. You have a +14 bonus on the check on top of your regular attack bonus (+4 for two-handed, +2 for special Disarm weapon, +4 from Deft Opportunist, +4 from Improved Disarm). Your opponent has +2 (if using the lance one-handed in a charge) or +6 (if using it two-handed in a charge).

If your opponent is using Power Attack, it gets even easier.

Without the lance, your opponent now only has 5' reach (as does the mount, since it's a large (long) creature). Use your next AoO (from your opponent leaving the threatened square) for Stand Still. Chances are, it won't make the reflex save. Now it's your turn. Full attack (make sure you use Power Attack - your opponent just sacrificed AC by charging, and possibly by using Heedless Charge). Opponent dies. Next...
thepsionicbard
06-12-06, 01:44 PM take away his/her credit card (sorry couldn’t resist :embarrass )
tarkin
06-12-06, 02:07 PM I personally like to screw with the mount. Usually (not all the time), they are easier to defeat than the rider.

A simple way to do it is

"Illusion of a wall"

Sure the rider makes his save, but does the mount? No mount will charge into a solid wall, I don't care HOW good your rider is. That mount stops before he hits the wall. Maybe if they were of at least standard human intelligence (10 or +) they might trust the rider and run through it. Otherwise, if it failed it's will save, no way does it run into a wall.
kjenks
06-12-06, 03:12 PM Smokestick. Almost foolproof and it keeps working for quite a while.

Delay until one of the charger's allies have acted then move so that the charger's ally interrupts the charger's charge path.
DarknessEternal
06-12-06, 03:59 PM Ready a move action.
Erak
06-12-06, 04:19 PM Caltrops.
DarknessEternal
06-13-06, 12:49 AM Caltrops have a pretty terrible chance of successfully attacking someone. For example, you'd need to roll a 16+ on a D20 to stop a heavy warhorse from charging.
GhostStepper
06-13-06, 12:56 AM Fly away
BW0222
06-13-06, 11:09 AM Spike stones, wall of thorns, wall of stone, wall of ice, web, entangle, slow, etc.

Without spells, just ready an action move out of the way or move behind any type of rough terrain/squares.
Shaggy_Shaggs
06-13-06, 11:18 AM I happen to like Combat Reflexes, Hold The Line, Improved Grapple, and reach equal to or better than the charger's.

He charges, you grab him, he can't complete the charge because his lance isn't a light weapon, you squeeze his head until it pops. :devil:
Turin71
06-13-06, 11:31 AM My personal favorite...sleep on horse. :D
VanRiper
06-13-06, 01:22 PM Thanks for the advice everyone. In this case, the arena the fight is in precludes moving since the charger's speed can cover the whole arena :) Also there is no obstacle I can hide behind - I bought a longspear to hit for double damage when I think he's going to charge (ready the action). Also, I might do my improved sunder with my spiked chain. Thanks again.
Erak
06-13-06, 01:36 PM You cannot Sunder with a piercing weapon.
Tony Vargas
06-13-06, 01:37 PM Thanks for the advice everyone. In this case, the arena the fight is in precludes moving since the charger's speed can cover the whole arena :) Since a charge must be in a straight line, all you have to do is move a few squares once he's moved at least two, his straight-line path is no longer pointed at you, and you're no longer a valid target of the charge. He can probably just change it to movement, and move up to you, but not attack, unless it's a single-move and, even then, it won't be a charge.

If it comes down to it, if you win initiative, and are willing not to attack, just keep readying moves, you pretty nearly /can't/ be charged. Of course, he can always do something else, and then your Ready is wasted.

There's an even nastier ready trick vs a normal-sized lance charge, though many DMs may rule against it. Ready a 5' step & attack vs the charger. When he gets within 10', you step in and attack him. The 5' step doesn't provoke, and it takes you /inside/ his threatened area, there's no way for him to fulfill the requirements of the charge at this point, so it's lost.

Like I said, though, your DM might rule against this. Since the charge is supposed to stop as soon as the target's within striking range, a target moving towards the charger would just cause the charge to go off an instant sooner.

And, it doesn't work vs a charger with any threatened area other than the 5' donut of a conventional medium reach weapon.

Also, I might do my improved sunder with my spiked chain. Not an option. Spiked chains only do piercing damage, and piercing weapons can't sunder. Disarm, of course, is an option, and you do get a +6 with the chain, since it two-handed and has the disarm special.
kjenks
06-13-06, 03:02 PM Let's assume that you start out with your spiked chain wielded in two hands and your opponent starts out mounted, wielding a lance.

If your opponent wins initiative, he'll likely do a Ride-by Attack on you, hurting you tremendously, but ending up relatively far away from you (so he can line up for another charge). If you survive, or if you win initiative, do this:

Take one hand off your chain (free action), get out a smokestick (move action), fire it up (standard action), put your hand back on your chain (free action) and take a step back (not an action). There is now a two-square-by-two-square smoky area that blocks line of sight between you and the charger. This blocks the mount's charge path. (Plot it out on a battlemat and look at the PH rules and diagrams showing how charge paths work.)

The mounted guy can't charge you this round unless his mount has the Fleet of Foot feat (with its prerequisites) or unless he can somehow dissipate that smoke as a free action. All he can do is move around the smoke and poke you with his lance -- or he can choose not to attack your that round and do something to buff up (cast a spell, use a potion, apply an oil, whatever).

If he does move up to you and attack, he's 10 feet from you, and now you have the advantage because a spiked chain is a close-up weapon, where a mounted lance charge only works if he has enough room to charge you.

Now, with your opponent and his mount standing 10 ft. away, you have two choices: step closer and attack or attack and step back.

On your turn, you can take a 5 ft step closer to him and make a full attack with your chain. This forces him and his mount to take a 5 ft step back if he wants to attack you with his lance, but it also brings you in range for a full attack from the mount (which might or might not matter; mounts don't typically do a lot of damage).

Or, on your turn, you can take a full attack with your chain then take a 5 ft. step back into the smoke. This means that your opponent will be able to take a 5 ft. step and get a full attack with his lance, or he might be able to make a mounted charge attack with a non-reach weapon (like unarmed strike or armor spikes), but all of these attacks would have a 20% miss chance because you're standing in concealment.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
VanRiper 06-12-06, 09:04 AM	What is the most effective (either amount of damage dealt or some other incapacitating technique) way to defeat a mounted charger coming right at you?
Father Dale 06-12-06, 09:37 AM	1. Destroy the Mount 2. Hinder movement so that they can't charge. Spells like Solid Fog or Wall of Stone. Even obscuring mist will work since they can't see well enough to charge through the mist. 3. Make them fatigued or exhastued so that they can't charge or run. Waves of Fatigue works good since there is no save. But even touch of fatigue or ray of exhaustion can work, although they both have fort saves. 4. Remove the rider from the mount. You can use a trip check to remove a rider from the mount, although its difficult since the rider can make a Ride check instead of a trip check to stay in his saddle. And most mounted combatants have a much better ride check then their Str/Dex check.
CryoSilver 06-12-06, 09:42 AM	Reach weapon + set against charge + Hold the Line = double damage AoO at reach; you can probably drop the mount in one hit.
OravennasBrother 06-12-06, 10:04 AM	Broken terrain - you can't hcarge through terrain which hinders movement, so any uneven surface will do. Even if you have to dig a few 1' deep holes to break the legs of the mount, yuo can generally find broken terrain. FWIW - solid rock surfaces are seldom flat and even enough for a charge, so that should not be a major issue.
Sunrider 06-12-06, 10:04 AM	Hold the Line + Improved Disarm + two-handed reach weapon with Disarm bonus + Deft Opportunist + Combat Reflexes + Stand Still Assuming you're Medium, facing a Medium lancer mounted on a Large mount: AoO from Hold the Line - use it to Disarm the lance. You have a +14 bonus on the check on top of your regular attack bonus (+4 for two-handed, +2 for special Disarm weapon, +4 from Deft Opportunist, +4 from Improved Disarm). Your opponent has +2 (if using the lance one-handed in a charge) or +6 (if using it two-handed in a charge). If your opponent is using Power Attack, it gets even easier. Without the lance, your opponent now only has 5' reach (as does the mount, since it's a large (long) creature). Use your next AoO (from your opponent leaving the threatened square) for Stand Still. Chances are, it won't make the reflex save. Now it's your turn. Full attack (make sure you use Power Attack - your opponent just sacrificed AC by charging, and possibly by using Heedless Charge). Opponent dies. Next...
thepsionicbard 06-12-06, 01:44 PM	take away his/her credit card (sorry couldn’t resist :embarrass )
tarkin 06-12-06, 02:07 PM	I personally like to screw with the mount. Usually (not all the time), they are easier to defeat than the rider. A simple way to do it is "Illusion of a wall" Sure the rider makes his save, but does the mount? No mount will charge into a solid wall, I don't care HOW good your rider is. That mount stops before he hits the wall. Maybe if they were of at least standard human intelligence (10 or +) they might trust the rider and run through it. Otherwise, if it failed it's will save, no way does it run into a wall.
kjenks 06-12-06, 03:12 PM	Smokestick. Almost foolproof and it keeps working for quite a while. Delay until one of the charger's allies have acted then move so that the charger's ally interrupts the charger's charge path.
DarknessEternal 06-12-06, 03:59 PM	Ready a move action.
Erak 06-12-06, 04:19 PM	Caltrops.
DarknessEternal 06-13-06, 12:49 AM	Caltrops have a pretty terrible chance of successfully attacking someone. For example, you'd need to roll a 16+ on a D20 to stop a heavy warhorse from charging.
GhostStepper 06-13-06, 12:56 AM	Fly away
BW0222 06-13-06, 11:09 AM	Spike stones, wall of thorns, wall of stone, wall of ice, web, entangle, slow, etc. Without spells, just ready an action move out of the way or move behind any type of rough terrain/squares.
Shaggy_Shaggs 06-13-06, 11:18 AM	I happen to like Combat Reflexes, Hold The Line, Improved Grapple, and reach equal to or better than the charger's. He charges, you grab him, he can't complete the charge because his lance isn't a light weapon, you squeeze his head until it pops. :devil:
Turin71 06-13-06, 11:31 AM	My personal favorite...sleep on horse. :D
VanRiper 06-13-06, 01:22 PM	Thanks for the advice everyone. In this case, the arena the fight is in precludes moving since the charger's speed can cover the whole arena :) Also there is no obstacle I can hide behind - I bought a longspear to hit for double damage when I think he's going to charge (ready the action). Also, I might do my improved sunder with my spiked chain. Thanks again.
Erak 06-13-06, 01:36 PM	You cannot Sunder with a piercing weapon.
Tony Vargas 06-13-06, 01:37 PM	Thanks for the advice everyone. In this case, the arena the fight is in precludes moving since the charger's speed can cover the whole arena :) Since a charge must be in a straight line, all you have to do is move a few squares once he's moved at least two, his straight-line path is no longer pointed at you, and you're no longer a valid target of the charge. He can probably just change it to movement, and move up to you, but not attack, unless it's a single-move and, even then, it won't be a charge. If it comes down to it, if you win initiative, and are willing not to attack, just keep readying moves, you pretty nearly /can't/ be charged. Of course, he can always do something else, and then your Ready is wasted. There's an even nastier ready trick vs a normal-sized lance charge, though many DMs may rule against it. Ready a 5' step & attack vs the charger. When he gets within 10', you step in and attack him. The 5' step doesn't provoke, and it takes you /inside/ his threatened area, there's no way for him to fulfill the requirements of the charge at this point, so it's lost. Like I said, though, your DM might rule against this. Since the charge is supposed to stop as soon as the target's within striking range, a target moving towards the charger would just cause the charge to go off an instant sooner. And, it doesn't work vs a charger with any threatened area other than the 5' donut of a conventional medium reach weapon. Also, I might do my improved sunder with my spiked chain. Not an option. Spiked chains only do piercing damage, and piercing weapons can't sunder. Disarm, of course, is an option, and you do get a +6 with the chain, since it two-handed and has the disarm special.
kjenks 06-13-06, 03:02 PM	Let's assume that you start out with your spiked chain wielded in two hands and your opponent starts out mounted, wielding a lance. If your opponent wins initiative, he'll likely do a Ride-by Attack on you, hurting you tremendously, but ending up relatively far away from you (so he can line up for another charge). If you survive, or if you win initiative, do this: Take one hand off your chain (free action), get out a smokestick (move action), fire it up (standard action), put your hand back on your chain (free action) and take a step back (not an action). There is now a two-square-by-two-square smoky area that blocks line of sight between you and the charger. This blocks the mount's charge path. (Plot it out on a battlemat and look at the PH rules and diagrams showing how charge paths work.) The mounted guy can't charge you this round unless his mount has the Fleet of Foot feat (with its prerequisites) or unless he can somehow dissipate that smoke as a free action. All he can do is move around the smoke and poke you with his lance -- or he can choose not to attack your that round and do something to buff up (cast a spell, use a potion, apply an oil, whatever). If he does move up to you and attack, he's 10 feet from you, and now you have the advantage because a spiked chain is a close-up weapon, where a mounted lance charge only works if he has enough room to charge you. Now, with your opponent and his mount standing 10 ft. away, you have two choices: step closer and attack or attack and step back. On your turn, you can take a 5 ft step closer to him and make a full attack with your chain. This forces him and his mount to take a 5 ft step back if he wants to attack you with his lance, but it also brings you in range for a full attack from the mount (which might or might not matter; mounts don't typically do a lot of damage). Or, on your turn, you can take a full attack with your chain then take a 5 ft. step back into the smoke. This means that your opponent will be able to take a 5 ft. step and get a full attack with his lance, or he might be able to make a mounted charge attack with a non-reach weapon (like unarmed strike or armor spikes), but all of these attacks would have a 20% miss chance because you're standing in concealment.