Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gamehag 04-27-05, 06:51 PM	Maybe this is already mentioned, but it seems to me that the best weapon out there is a spiked bashing shield. For half the price of enhancing a weapon, you get a one-handed martial weapon that does 2d6 damage (1d6 w/spikes increased two size categories). Just to get a comparable weapon to do 1d10 damage, you need exotic weapon (bastard sword) proficiency. And to add insult to injury, you can use the shield as a shield when not bashing, thus simulating the effects of a Defending weapon on full AC.
Centauri 04-27-05, 07:07 PM	And to add insult to injury, you can use the shield as a shield when not bashing, thus simulating the effects of a Defending weapon on full AC. And if you take Improved Shield Bash, you can use the shield as a shield while bashing. Still, much as I like the idea, I don't know if it's worth it for a character to make shield bashing a big part of his fighting style. I haven't crunched the numbers on bonuses and what not, but don't most people just go for an animated shield as soon as they can afford one?
Bantam 04-27-05, 07:08 PM	Umm upping the size category twice is like a -4 penalty to the attack roll. Plus a shield bash is an off-hand attack so only apply half your strength bonus. I think there's a LOT of weapons better than that.
Nuntius128 04-27-05, 07:12 PM	Umm upping the size category twice is like a -4 penalty to the attack roll. Plus a shield bash is an off-hand attack so only apply half your strength bonus. I think there's a LOT of weapons better than that. Its not making it larger. Its increasing damage.
ShiverTheBard 04-27-05, 07:21 PM	Bashing is a +1 Enhancment that makes any shield enchanted a +1 weapon as well as increasing the shield's damage by two steps. Therefore, it grants no penalty on attacks. No, a shield bash is not an off-hand attack unless you choose for it to be. If I wanted, I could wield a shield in my primary and a shortsword in my off. (Not a bad combo with a defending shortsword.)
mvincent 04-27-05, 07:28 PM	Edit: Removed. We are specifically refering only to a shield with Bashing enhancement
tarkin 04-27-05, 07:36 PM	The cost for a +1 Spiked Bashing Shield is 4,000 This is 1/2 the cost of a +1 flaming weapon, so that is a closer thing to price it to then a non-magical weapon. More importantly, it is arguable about if it is even possible. Bashing says Shield, not Spiked Shield. Spiked Shield is a different weapon. It is sort of like saying that an enchantment that says "only on a long sword" also works on a Double sword.
gamehag 04-27-05, 08:28 PM	Quote: "Bashing says Shield, not Spiked Shield. Spiked Shield is a different weapon. It is sort of like saying that an enchantment that says "only on a long sword" also works on a Double sword." Actually, Bashing is a general ability added to shields. Analogous to Flaming being added to a weapon. According to the DMG, you can add such a "special ability" to any object that fits it. So I can add Flaming to a sword, mace, double-sword, whatever. Similarly, I can add Bashing to small shield, buckler, spiked large shield, whatever shield (except tower). Quote: "A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC." True. I should've clarified my point. Yes enhancement bonuses must be added separately, but not special abilities. Special abilities can be added along the shield scale or weapon scale For example: a +1 bashing flaming frost shield is a total shield cost of +4 or 16000gp Or even cheaper, go +1 AC and bashing as shield (total +2 = 4000gp) go flaming/frost as weapon (total +2 = 4000) so 2X4000=8000gp! Or you could enhance the spikes themselves and change the numbers again. A +1 flaming frost sword is +3 or 18000gp, over double the cost.
Bantam 04-27-05, 08:35 PM	Bashing is a +1 Enhancment that makes any shield enchanted a +1 weapon as well as increasing the shield's damage by two steps. Therefore, it grants no penalty on attacks. No, a shield bash is not an off-hand attack unless you choose for it to be. If I wanted, I could wield a shield in my primary and a shortsword in my off. (Not a bad combo with a defending shortsword.) From the SRD: Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy/light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. SO even if it's 2d6 damage (which is debatable) it'll still have 1/2 the Str bonus.
gamehag 04-27-05, 08:45 PM	From the SRD: SO even if it's 2d6 damage (which is debatable) it'll still have 1/2 the Str bonus. First, it's 2d6 because bashing ability increases the damage of a shield by two size categories. Spiked shield (M) does 1d6, increased two size categories, it does 2d6 (according to SRD). Second, 1/2 strength is only if it's used in TWF. That's the context in which the quote you wrote was used. Consider the section on using improvised weapons in the PHB: If you pick up a clunky, glass flower vase, and hit it over someone's head (w/ -4 attack), but damage is using full strength (if not using TWF). Now, you're telling me that using a solid, martial weapon such as a shield get's you a 1/2 strength if it's your only attack? Hard to believe.
DarknessEternal 04-27-05, 11:30 PM	A shield can only ever be used as an off-hand weapon, even if it's the only thing you're holding. Read the section "Shield Bash Attacks" under the description of shields.
GouSan 04-28-05, 08:46 AM	They wrote that on the rule book because (I think) no body never had thinked in a such stupid thing of using the shield as your only weapon! Stupid, but the most powergaming idea... I really liked it! So, if you are using a longsword on primary hand and a shortsword on the off-hand and you are attacking only with the longsword you must get the penalties for two weapon fighting? Grab the shield with two hand and blam it in the orc's face, do you still apply only your strengh or 1.5? It is common sense not rules that should prevail! See ya! Gou-San
DarknessEternal 04-28-05, 10:05 AM	Incorrect. Common sense doesn't win out over rules in D&D. 1. It's a game. 2. Games have rules for a reason. 3. Games do not simulate reality.
TheDarklion 04-28-05, 11:26 AM	I'm pretty sure if you have the shield charge feat. And you make a shield charge its considered your primary weapon during the charge. Dunno thats just my take on it.
tarkin 04-28-05, 11:40 AM	The Bashing enchantment SPECIFIES the types of shields it can work on. For example it can not work on the Tower Shield. No they did not say "no spiked shields", they did not think of it - they left out a lot things because they did not think of it.. It is up to the DM to deal with the things they left out. It is perfectly reasonable for a DM to read the Bashing enchantment as not working on the Spiked Shield. The shield is being enchanted, But the spike is doing the damage You are allowed to enchant your spike seperately from your shield. I.E. You can pay 1,150 gp to get a +1 shield, and another 2,300 gp to get a +1 Spike on the shield. Such an item is +1 to hit and also +1 to attack. So, if the spike is doing the damage, not the shield, HOW does the shield's bashing property ever come into play? I am not going to claim this is common sense. OBVIOUSLY, the person that is arguing you is disagreeing with your interpretation - so the sense is not "common" among the relevant people. Claiming something is common sense is a back handed insult, stating that "everyone else agrees with me, you are wrong.", and that claim should be ignored. I am going to claim it is logical It is logical that the spike is a seperate weapon and that it hits, not the shield, so the shield's magic never activates. Yes, it could be argued the other way. But the only reason to do that is to allow a spiked shield to be a better weapon for it's price than anyother weapon. So the question you have to ask yourself is this: Do you really want to play in a game where the best weapon under 5,000 gp is a shield that makes use of an obvious oversight by the game designers? There are people out there that DO want to play in that game. I could even see it possible that some of the people are Power Gamers, not Munchkins. Possible. But not likely.
Nephlite 04-28-05, 12:01 PM	So the question you have to ask yourself is this: Do you really want to play in a game where the best weapon under 5,000 gp is a shield that makes use of an obvious oversight by the game designers? There are people out there that DO want to play in that game. I could even see it possible that some of the people are Power Gamers, not Munchkins. Possible. But not likely. Yeah, I'd play in a game where spiked shields with badhing do 2d6. I mean you still only get 1/2 str bonus. Spiked Chain exists if you want power. :P Yes, very likely they see shields should have some good. Bashing spiked sghields is only viaable attacking shield. You still lose 1/2 str so it isn't all peaches and cream.
Ged Coldplain 04-28-05, 12:27 PM	The pure cheesiness of the concept, using a shield as a primary weapon, getting shield bonus to armourclass and dealing damage similar to a greatsword (inferior crit) is rather bad, but still… its not that bad… you need a feat; improved shield bash to use this to its fullest, and if you use it with a weapon you get two-weapon penalties, have to burn another feat there… still the overall concept can be used for role-playing purposes, a fighter running around smacking people with his enchanted two-hand wielded shield would be rather amusing… :)
carnivore 04-28-05, 12:30 PM	whats more fun..............add the Ranged shield enhancement from XPH Ranged: The wielder of a ranged shield can throw it in combat, with a range increment of 30 feet. While in the air, the shield is treated in all ways as a ranged weapon and cannot be blocked or grabbed except by those with appropriate feats. No matter the size of the wielder, a buckler or light shield deals 1d6 points of damage and a heavy one 1d8 points. (A tower shield cannot be created with this special ability.) The wielder’s Strength modifier and the shield’s enhancement bonus add to the base damage. A ranged shield flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the wielder just before the creature’s next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). Catching a ranged shield when it comes back is a free action. If the wielder can’t catch it, or if the wielder has moved since throwing it, the shield drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown. Faint psychokinesis; ML 5th; Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, far hand; Price +1 bonus. :D
gamehag 04-28-05, 02:27 PM	[QUOTE=carnivore]whats more fun..............add the Ranged shield enhancement from XPH You read my mind! When I first started this thread, I was thinking of a paladin character I created called Commander NewFoundland. His only weapon is an adamantine shield emblazoned with a star that he routinely throws at enemies. Commander NewFoundland was a skinny child living on the streets of Waterdeep until he volunteered for a magical experiment to created a super-knight. I'm sure many of you can guess who the character is based on. The point is that the concept is not a powergaming device. Historically, there have been many characters of mythology that only had a shield and no other regularly used weapon. It's a fresh look at weapons-use. The shield is neither a reach weapon, nor able to trip nor a two-handed weapon (but can arguably be used two-handed), so it lacks some assets. And as for the argument of shields always giving 1/2 str or that spikes cannot be included in the bashing ability, let's say the arguments hold true. The shield can still be a great weapon for any character. The fact that adding a special ability costs significantly less than that of a weapon is plenty good. Example 1: +1 Heavy Bashing Flaming Shield, cost= 9000gp wielded by 18 str fighter w/ imp shield bash feat using shield with two hands Damage= 1d8+1(bashing)+3(1/2strX1.5)+1d6(flaming)-->average=11 hp damage Advantage: +3 AC bonus while attacking Example 2: +1 Flaming Bastard Sword that must give +3 AC bonus, so add defending ability and another +2 enhancement bonus. Same fighter with 18 str w/ exotic weapon:bastard sword feat. Final: +3 Flaming Defending Bastard Sword, w/ +3 bonus switched to AC cost= 50000gp Damage= 1d10+0(bonus in AC)+6(strX1.5)+1d6(flaming)-->average=14hp So for an extra 41000gp, you get to do 3 extra hp damage/attack. Not a good investment. However, spiked chain or two-handed sword are still superior in some cases. But that doesn't rule out the shield as an interesting and excellent primary weapon And guess what, if your a cleric or wizard/fighter, there are times when you're going to cast a spell in melee rather than attack. At that point, you just keep you shield up and cast away with your free hand. No need to spend money on an animated shield or use precious time on the shield spell or even drop your weapon.
DarknessEternal 04-28-05, 03:44 PM	You're also forgetting the -10 penalty to hit with that shield. Using a heavy weapon with an off-handed attack with a one-handed weapon carries a -10 penalty to attack rolls.. The fact that you have nothing in your other hand is irrelevant. Using a shield to attack is always an off-hand attack. Read the Shield Bash Attacks sections of the SRD. Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. You could pick up Two Weapon Fighting and Oversized Two Weapon Fighting to get that to a -2 penalty.
chocobochicken 04-28-05, 04:00 PM	From the 3.5 FAQ: The description of the magical bashing property for shields says it can be added only to light or heavy shields. Does this exclude shields with shield spikes? That is, can you have a +2 spiked light shield of bashing? You can add the bashing property to a spiked shield. If you do, you use the bashing damage or the spike damage, as you prefer. The example +1 spiked light shield of bashing, if made for a Medium character, would deal 1d4 points of damage from the spike or from a bash. (Normally a light shield bash deals 1d3 points of damage, but the bashing enhancement increases that to 1d4.) If you use the spike damage, you’re using a piercing weapon, and the spike has no enhancement bonus (but you could enhance the spike separately). If you use the bash, you’re using a bludgeoning weapon that has a +1 enhancement. So the damage is definately not 2d6.
gamehag 04-28-05, 05:26 PM	You're also forgetting the -10 penalty to hit with that shield. Using a heavy weapon with an off-handed attack with a one-handed weapon carries a -10 penalty to attack rolls.. The fact that you have nothing in your other hand is irrelevant. Using a shield to attack is always an off-hand attack. Read the Shield Bash Attacks sections of the SRD. You could pick up Two Weapon Fighting and Oversized Two Weapon Fighting to get that to a -2 penalty. Your mixing apples and oranges. The section you're referring to with the -10 penalty comes straight out of the TWF rules in the SRD. Therefore, you can't say having nothing in your other hand is irrelevent. In that case, the same text says I should get an extra attack with the off-hand weapon. Does not make sense to me. In the PHB, an off-hand is defined as the "..weaker hand (usually the left for most characters).." Again, I give the example of the improvised weapon, a big, stone flower pot. According to SRD, swing it two-handed and you do 1.5Xstr with non-prof penalty. Pick up a shield and you do 1/2str with -4 off-hand penalty? So instead of a shield (martial wpn), I could pick up a shield-shaped cookie tray in my primary hand, take a proficiency in it, and swing it for full damage/no attack penalty. Do you see how your argument breaks down here? To chocobochicken: Accepted, glad there was a faq that addressed that issue. I still like the 1d8 (and not 2d6) flaming range bashing shield o' mine. Again, not an uberweapon, othewise it would be unbalanced, but still can compete with many other martial weapons. And adding special abilities is still cheaper.
DarknessEternal 04-28-05, 05:44 PM	In the PHB, an off-hand is defined as the "..weaker hand (usually the left for most characters).." Again, I give the example of the improvised weapon, a big, stone flower pot. According to SRD, swing it two-handed and you do 1.5Xstr with non-prof penalty. Pick up a shield and you do 1/2str with -4 off-hand penalty? So instead of a shield (martial wpn), I could pick up a shield-shaped cookie tray in my primary hand, take a proficiency in it, and swing it for full damage/no attack penalty. Do you see how your argument breaks down here? No, my argument doesn't break down. A cookie tray doesn't provide an AC bonus, nor does it do 1d8 damage. You also can't take a weapon proficiency in a cookie tray, as it it is not a weapon.
gamehag 04-28-05, 06:04 PM	No, my argument doesn't break down. A cookie tray doesn't provide an AC bonus, nor does it do 1d8 damage. You also can't take a weapon proficiency in a cookie tray, as it it is not a weapon. Your argument breaks down because it pits the improvised weapon rules against the shield bash rules with no logical resolution. Cookie tray example is meant to illustrate that something wielded (with straps) exactly like a shield is not an off-hand weapon. And who says you can't get proficiency in a cookie tray? Oh..I'm sure there's a feat somewhere out there.
lovehater 04-28-05, 06:43 PM	Maybe this is already mentioned, but it seems to me that the best weapon out there is a spiked bashing shield. For half the price of enhancing a weapon, you get a one-handed martial weapon that does 2d6 damage (1d6 w/spikes increased two size categories). Just to get a comparable weapon to do 1d10 damage, you need exotic weapon (bastard sword) proficiency. And to add insult to injury, you can use the shield as a shield when not bashing, thus simulating the effects of a Defending weapon on full AC. 4 words my friend. flaming keene great sword. done. 3d6. 15-20 crit (w/ improved crit). what more would someone ask for.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 04-28-05, 06:58 PM	4 words my friend. flaming keene great sword. done. 3d6. 15-20 crit (w/ improved crit). what more would someone ask for. Keen and Improved Crit to stack? Flaming and critical hits to stack?
gamehag 04-28-05, 07:19 PM	Keen and Improved Crit to stack? Flaming and critical hits to stack? Exactly. Well..good try lovehater. But keen greatsword is pretty awesome anyway. I like my +1 flaming bashing shield because I play fighting spellcaster a lot. a +3 AC while your casting in melee is nice. Also, you can add lots of goodies to my shield +1 bashing flaming acidic holy shield = 36000gp +1 flaming acidic holy greatsword= 50000gp I could almost buy gauntlets of ogre power (+4 str) with the saved gp.
FabulousRex 04-28-05, 07:40 PM	To all those people that want to nit-pick about shield bashes being only off-hand, allow me to counter-nitpick. First off, it's not exactly game-breaking. To use a heavy spiked shield primarily along with a short sword off-hand is basically d6 damage on both attacks, not allowing bashing on a spiked shield (which makes sense to me). If you have a heavy bashing shield, it's only d8/d6, no better than a longsword/shortsword, along with armor check penalties. This also takes 2 feats at least, Imp.Shield Bash and TWF. Note also that TW Defense provides better bonuses to defense and doesn't stack, as it adds a shield bonus. Imp.Buckler Defense will do much better as well, with no check penalty, and you can focus on defensive enhancements for that buckler anyhow. Second, the rules only state the possibility of using a shield off-hand. The key word is can. As in, ' Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy/light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.' Nothing says that you must, or that it's the only way of using such a weapon. Heavy shields both spiked and normal are listed as one-handed martial weapons, what the hell would stop you from using it as your primary weapon? The fact that it can be used in your off-hand doesn't mean that you must.
DarknessEternal 04-28-05, 11:42 PM	The fact that it can be used in your off-hand doesn't mean that you must. On the contrary, given that there are no other rules in the game about using a shield as a weapon, you cannot use it as a main hand weapon.
carnivore 04-29-05, 07:48 AM	unless you use it as a thrown weapon.......ranged shield ;)
Nyferto 04-29-05, 08:52 AM	Right... So you can only attack with a shield at all - with a shield bash attack. That means it's going to be offhand no matter what. This means you need TWF to make it effective because you will only ever get offhand attacks. If it's 3 steps bigger, then it's at 2d6. It goes from 1d4 to 1d8 with bashing and to 2d6 with spikes, this turns it into a martial piercing weapon. You enchance the shield independantly as a weapon, spiked or otherwise. However you want to rule is upto you, but RAW - it's offhand only at -4
FabulousRex 04-29-05, 09:57 AM	There is one big rule for using a shield as a weapon: it's listing as a one-handed melee weapon. Trying to apply the option to use it as an off-hand attack to all attacks made with it is needlessly rules-lawyerish. As I said before, it's not like it's overpowered or anything, as Bashing doesn't (or shouldn't) apply to spiked shields. It's like saying a Club, Dagger, or Sai can't be thrown because it doesn't specifically mention that it can be thrown in the weapon's description.
chocobochicken 04-29-05, 10:24 AM	And adding special abilities is still cheaper. Adding shield/armor-specific special abilities to a shield is still cheaper, but if you want flaming burst or other weapon-based properties on your shield, you have to enchant it separately as a weapon. You can't simply have a +5 bashing flaming burst spiked heavy shield for the price of a +8 shield, but you can have a +5 bashing shield that acts as a +5 flaming burst weapon for the combined price of a +6 shield and a +7 weapon.
Deviston 04-29-05, 11:22 AM	On the contrary, given that there are no other rules in the game about using a shield as a weapon, you cannot use it as a main hand weapon. Hmm . . . that's odd! I thought the DM could do whatever he wanted!!! Wow, man i hate being wrong . . . oh well, on to my little story. A few campaigns ago, I enjoyed the Dwarven Shield Master build. I created it with alittle help from my DM on Shield fighting. I wielded a Spiked Shield as my primary weapon and therefore got full STR damage on it. That was a lgiht shield. Later on I grew stronger and decided to pick up a medium one haded shield. This let me two hand it (( gripping the sides )) and bash the brains out of people's noses for STR X 1.5 in damage. I later picked up the tower shield. This was hard to deal with. I had to have a STR of 18 (( which I DID have )) to wield it. and as I had to two hand it to wield it, i got STR X 1.5 with it. I enchanted the spikes as per a weapon, same pricing and everything. If it was a +5 "greatsword" then thats how much i payed for the shield. I had fun. The subject came later on when, by the evil mechinations of the local BBEG, I had my STR and DEX switched!! Pooh for me . . . lost my ability to wield the Tower, so I traded it out for two light shields. i got normal TWF penalties and only 1XSTR on my primary hand shield and .5 on my off hand shield. and i had to take that one feat, improved shield bash twice, once for each shield. all in all, never once was it considered over powered. i kept up with the party, i didnt excell, but i did keep up. There's my little story kids, enjoy, and may the bones you pick from your teeth be nice and shiny (( orcish proverb meaning i hope your battles go quick and painless . . . for you! ))
mvincent 04-29-05, 12:37 PM	On the contrary, given that there are no other rules in the game about using a shield as a weapon, you cannot use it as a main hand weapon.By RAW, I believe you can, but it would be considered an improvised club or somesuch. This means you could also use it two-handed if desired, or even take a feat to become proficient with using it that way... but it's just not the way it was intended to be used. This also passes the reality check: historical cultures did not use (or train to use) shields as a primary weapon, or in their primary hand, and using them that way would be awkward (but possible). But that's not a regular "shield bash"... it's something else.
gamehag 04-29-05, 01:19 PM	Adding shield/armor-specific special abilities to a shield is still cheaper, but if you want flaming burst or other weapon-based properties on your shield, you have to enchant it separately as a weapon. You can't simply have a +5 bashing flaming burst spiked heavy shield for the price of a +8 shield, but you can have a +5 bashing shield that acts as a +5 flaming burst weapon for the combined price of a +6 shield and a +7 weapon. I'm not talking about enhancement bonuses, only special abilities. from what I read, you can go along shield/armor scale. Section on magic shields in the SRD says: "As with armor, special abilities built into the shield add to the market value in the form of additions to the bonus of the shield, although they do not improve AC." What I'm saying is that bashing special ability already makes the shield a +1 weapon, so you can right away add special abilities. In any case, if the shield is +2 or above, it's probably better to go along weapon scale anyway. So shield costs: +2 bashing heavy shield = 9000 gp weapon costs: flaming frost= 8000gp total costs: 17000gp Just going along shield scale with all that would be 25000gp
carnivore 04-29-05, 01:22 PM	i find it interesting that the New WotC Book.."Sandstorm" has a Deity that has a Spiked shield as his favored weapon...hmmmmm :D
chocobochicken 04-29-05, 02:11 PM	I'm not talking about enhancement bonuses, only special abilities. from what I read, you can go along shield/armor scale. Section on magic shields in the SRD says: "As with armor, special abilities built into the shield add to the market value in the form of additions to the bonus of the shield, although they do not improve AC." They're talking about shield-specific special abilities, listed in the Armor/Shield section of magical items. Weapon-specific special abilities are under a completely separate category with their own pricing. That's why there's a table labled "Shield Special Abilities." That's what they have access to. The ruling that shields can be separately enchanted as magic weapons is what allows them to have weapon-specific special abilities -- it's not an inherent right they already had. What I'm saying is that bashing special ability already makes the shield a +1 weapon, so you can right away add special abilities. Nope. The shield acts as a +1 weapon when making a shield bash, but it is not an actual +1 weapon, so it does not meet the requirements for adding special abilities until you have it enchanted normally.
gamehag 04-29-05, 06:33 PM	Nope. The shield acts as a +1 weapon when making a shield bash, but it is not an actual +1 weapon, so it does not meet the requirements for adding special abilities until you have it enchanted normally.[/QUOTE] Most of your arguments are sound and I'm taking them into the shield-as-weapon calculus, but the bashing thing is debatable. I can't place them, put a number of references treat bashing as enhancement +1, including to bypass DR, attack/damage bonus, etc. I choose to see it as a +1 enhancement bonus, but your point has validity. According to the FAQ, the spike on a spiked shield can be enchanted separately. That opens up some amazing possibilities. One can build a weapon along shield, shield-as-weapon, and spike scales, keeping costs down. I should say, I think anyone who says a shield bash is an off-hand attack when it is used as a primary weapon is dead wrong.
Deviston 04-29-05, 07:06 PM	They may be wrong, but is it unbalanced . . . excuse me , i have a cough . . . *cough* *cough* DMisGod *cough* candowhateverhewants *cough* *cough* ugh . . i hate being sick, well those were my :2cents:
Nephlite 04-29-05, 07:10 PM	Most of your arguments are sound and I'm taking them into the shield-as-weapon calculus, but the bashing thing is debatable. I can't place them, put a number of references treat bashing as enhancement +1, including to bypass DR, attack/damage bonus, etc. I choose to see it as a +1 enhancement bonus, but your point has validity. According to the FAQ, the spike on a spiked shield can be enchanted separately. That opens up some amazing possibilities. One can build a weapon along shield, shield-as-weapon, and spike scales, keeping costs down. I should say, I think anyone who says a shield bash is an off-hand attack when it is used as a primary weapon is dead wrong. The Designers made it an off hand attack. So the designers are wrong? I agree, but the Raw disagrees.
gamehag 04-29-05, 07:32 PM	We just went through all this. Debate is on, don't invoke name of designers when it's your own interpretation. By making attack with shield off-hand, your conflicting with improvised and martial weapon rules. Where else does a proficient character picking up a martial weapon with primary hand and attacking result in 1/2str and -4 attack?
mvincent 04-29-05, 08:53 PM	The Designers made it an off hand attack. So the designers are wrong? I agree, but the Raw disagrees.Anyone could be justified in interpretting this anyway that makes them happy (citing intent of the rules and other examples as support). For me: I thought awhile about this, and I feel that using a shield in your primary hand goes against regular martial training, and I don't know of any culture that did so. It's not that you couldn't, it just wouldn't be very practical (especially once an opponent noticed what you were doing... a normal shield bash can be sneaky... but not if it's your main weapon). I would definitely treat a shield in your main hand as something other than a standard shield bash. Mechanics-wise, I can see why others believe it should be treated like any other weapon, but realism-wise, it's different. I don't know whether the rules were intended to support this conclusion, but they do, so I'll keep it for my games.
gamehag 04-30-05, 01:14 AM	There's a lot of weapons that DnD uses in a way that they were never, ever historically used, however you're entitled to your opinion. You know, your opponent could have the shield pin feat, and then you're in trouble. On the other hand, since the weapon is strapped to your arm, being disarmed is less likely (-4 or so penalty, or perhaps cannot be disarmed).
Deviston 05-01-05, 09:54 PM	:: End Subscription ::
moby 05-01-05, 11:26 PM	On the issue of pricing/enhancing a shield for attacking, what about the _Shield of Vigilance_ from MoF? +1 Bashing Shock Large Steel Shield, 9,170gp. So... Large Steel Shield (masterwork) = 170 +1 Bashing = +2 = 4000gp .... and right there's my question. How the heck do you explain the price? And to bring this to point on topic, is this shield evidence that Bashing serves to give enough "magical foundation" (i.e., the minimum necessary enhancement bonus) to the shield to enable Shock to be placed on it without also enhancing the shield to a +1 weapon? moby
Nephlite 05-01-05, 11:51 PM	On the issue of pricing/enhancing a shield for attacking, what about the _Shield of Vigilance_ from MoF? +1 Bashing Shock Large Steel Shield, 9,170gp. So... Large Steel Shield (masterwork) = 170 +1 Bashing = +2 = 4000gp .... and right there's my question. How the heck do you explain the price? And to bring this to point on topic, is this shield evidence that Bashing serves to give enough "magical foundation" (i.e., the minimum necessary enhancement bonus) to the shield to enable Shock to be placed on it without also enhancing the shield to a +1 weapon? moby Shield abilities +1 (AC)= 1000 Bashing 3000? Weapon abilities +1 weapon=2000 Shock =4000? =9170 Isn't that it?
gamehag 05-02-05, 02:08 AM	No, the only way for it work out would be: +1 for AC +1 for bashing +1 for shock Total +3 enhancement bonus as shield=9000 + 170 (base shield cost). So it seems bashing counts as +1 enhancement in that example. Your numbers on the shield are wrong because a +1 weapon with shock ability doesn't come out to 6000. It's 2 X bonus squared X 1000 = 8000gp
Blindberzerker 05-02-05, 07:17 AM	sorry for interrupting the flow of events but I've been reading along and I personally don't see why someone wouldn't want to create a character who's specialised in using a shield as both weapon/protection ? The idea is fun and quite original :D Why don't you all share your thoughts and propose something ? What would you suggest regarding the creation of such a strange weapon wielder ? Would be quite interesting in fact :P Just imagine, a warrior/mage with two enhanced shields; one floating around independently, granting cover and AC bonus, while the other enhanced one could be thrown at opponents, leaving our character with free hands to cast spells ;) Or a young cleric, of a "non-violent" order or an Hospitaler, wielding a heavy holy shield...or even the above example with the Paladin :P And what about those savage species ? A lizardfolk fighter (or other creature) with a primitive heavy shield (a big tortoise shell for example) Would bring a little change from the ever boring unoriginal "heavy keen greatsword of blablablabla" well you see what I mean, and PLEASE PLEASE this isn't neither a nasty comment or an insult to players out there, it was just a personal reflexion. No offense boys and girls ;) Many thanks and I'm sure everyone has one or two good thoughts and ideas :D B.B PLEASE REMEMBER THE KEY WORDS : IT'S JUST FOR FUN !
moby 05-02-05, 08:47 AM	I can take this to another thread if it blows the flow of the general conversation. No, the only way for it work out would be: *snip* Total +3 enhancement bonus as shield=9000 + 170 (base shield cost). So it seems bashing counts as +1 enhancement in that example. Your numbers on the shield are wrong because a +1 weapon with shock ability doesn't come out to 6000. It's 2 X bonus squared X 1000 = 8000gp Exactly. If we take it that Shock requires the shield to be enhanced to a +1 weapon aside from everything else, the price (ignore the 170gp base shield cost) should be +1 for AC +1 for bashing +1 for weapon +1 for shock, for a total of +2 armour + +2 weapon = 4000 + 8000 = 12,000 Given that example, I'm thinking that the Bashing shield enhancement allows a shield to be enhanced as a weapon without further modification. from Weapon Descriptions Shield, Heavy or Light: You can bash with a shield instead of using it for defense. See Armor for details. from Armour Descriptions Shield, Heavy, Wooden or Steel: *snip* Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Shield, Light, Wooden or Steel: *snip* Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Note that NONE of the entries in Table:Weapons shows anything about the various +2 to trip, +2 to disarm, or Set Against Charge abilities. Just because something is listed in the table doesn't mean you can use it exactly as it shows in the table with no other modifications to the mechanics. Sometimes, you need to read the rest of the rules. In case it isn't obvious, my interpretation/view of the RAW is that all shield bash attacks are as off-hand attacks. Hope that helps. moby
gamehag 05-02-05, 01:30 PM	Well, you can interpret it how you want. But following your advice that one should read further and not just focus on the immediate rules, by treating shields as ONLY off-hand weapons, you're creating a paradox in the rules. First off, the off-hand is the weaker hand (usually the left) as defined in the back of the PHB. So using your primary hand exclusively to strike with a shield should not garner a -4 and 1/2 str penalty. Second, there is not a single mention of a martial weapon being considered an off-hand attack. Remember, a rule needs to apply uniformally, otherwise it's only an example. I have yet to see WOTC create such types of "rules".
Santini 05-04-05, 04:29 PM	Add the Throwing/Returning enchantment to it and you too could be Captain America!!
TheMagister 05-04-05, 06:50 PM	I had a character concept like this I tried to build once. Riddle me this: could a mithral heavy shield (5 lbs, no armor check penalty) be considered a light weapon for the purposes of two weapon fighting? Should it? I rather like the idea of a TWF fighter wielding a longsword in his primary hand and a spiked mithral heavy shield in his off hand. With improved shield bash and both sides of the TWF and TWDefense feat trees, you could make a helluva good defensive fighter. TM