Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thoom 04-06-07, 10:09 PM	Feats are two weapon fighting, imp two wep, greater two wep, and oversized two wep. What do you recomend?
Ozzymandias 04-06-07, 10:17 PM	Nunchuks, so that when you get polymorphed into a dragon turtle, you can put on an orange headband and call yourself Michelangelo. Or scythes, so you can become a whirling tornado of death (requires Monkey Grip and a pair of keen scythes). There's also the standard long sword or scimitar sets. Or daggers or katar. How about whip-daggers?
Tommyboy 04-06-07, 11:02 PM	If you're a Dwarf; Dwarven Waraxes. If not any martial one handed weapon would work.
Masterfulks 04-06-07, 11:08 PM	I was considering going with kukri's for my next character. Two light weapons that would benefit from weapon finesse, and the extended crit range would get me using the crit chart more often. Oh I see the oversized thing now...which book is that from?
RLRapp 04-06-07, 11:19 PM	I was considering going with kukri's for my next character. Two light weapons that would benefit from weapon finesse, and the extended crit range would get me using the crit chart more often. Oh I see the oversized thing now...which book is that from? Complete Adventurer.
RavenDrake 04-06-07, 11:23 PM	Oversized Two Weapon Fighting is in Complete Adventurer. With that setup, you can use pretty much any two martial or exotic one-handed weapons.... but your choices will vary depending on whether you focused on physical power or finesse... also on your class(es). If you're finesse focuse, a Pair of Rapiers is a good choice... If you're just going melee then two longswords or Two warhammers would be good standbys. If you want exotic... well... again it depends on your build and class. I wouldn't waste an exotic feat on any weapon that's just a one die increase over another (ie Bastard Sword instead of Longsword, thinblade instead of rapier, etc) especially since you you benefit from power attack on both hands. Look for exotic weapons with unique qualities. Whip Dagger is good for ranged tripping/disarming... another good disarmer is the Flindbar(MM III) which does good damage, has a bonus to disarms, and allows a free disarm attempt on a critical threat without provoking an AOO. There's also the oppotunity to go Sword and Board using a heavy shield (I'd recomend a heavy spiked shield with the Bashing property) and another weapon.. though you'd need to add Improved Shield Bash to retain the AC bonus.
Empiro 04-07-07, 12:34 AM	Greatsword + Armor Spikes. Can't be beat.
Jaxgaret 04-07-07, 02:20 AM	Greatsword + Armor Spikes. Can't be beat. Munchkin! That's so unrealistic. Besides, it's Greatsword + Boot Blades :D
j3st3r 04-07-07, 02:55 AM	Tigerskull Club from Frostburn is a good exotic weapon. Same dam. & crit. as dire pick (1d8 20/x4) and the damage type is both piercing and bludgeoning. You also get +2 to disarm and trip attempts.
T_K 04-07-07, 04:10 AM	Don't laugh, but I have a similar character with two Bastard Swords. I know it might look a bit unfeasible, but this is high fantasy and it's not against the rules.
Khadmus 04-07-07, 07:13 AM	The most damaging finesse weapon (without using monkey grip) is the Elven Thinblade or the Ribbonweave. The Thinblade has a higher critical rating (18-20) than the Ribbonweave (19-20). They are in Races of the Wild and Races of Eberron, respectively. The elven courtblade is also in RotW, and is 2-handed. Finesse, 1d10, 18-20.
sineous blackspell 04-07-07, 09:37 AM	FALCHION in 2 sizes
Goreg Skullcrusher 04-07-07, 10:37 AM	Play a Dwarf, grab Monkey Grip, and wield a Large Dwarven Waraxe in your forehand, and a medium one in your offhand. 2d8/1d10 damage, plus your Dwarf is wielding weapons easily 2-3 times his size :D
Maraxus 04-07-07, 12:41 PM	Primary hand: Longsword Second Hand: Flail in spiked gauntlet (or spiked armor) Trip your opponent with the half-strength Off-hand and then strike him with your longsword (or battle-axe) while he is prone. Also note, that the Dire Flail is a (totally unrealistic but) very useful exotic weapon, for the 2-weapon fighting penalties it's a light and a one-handed weapon but actually, you are holding it still in two hands, what counts for disarm and trip modifiers...
dengarbountyhunter 04-07-07, 05:33 PM	Katanas. Just kidding. Do you want only one type of weapon so you can apply Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, etc. to both? Or the best combination? I find that a heavy spiked shield and another one-handed weapon (heavy flail maybe) would be a great idea. You only need Shield Bash to get a shield bonus, while you would require Two-Weapon Defence, Improved TWD, etc. to get the same AC boost with another weapon.
Palomides 04-07-07, 05:50 PM	I would focus on the same weapon in each hand and get weapon focus, improved critical, weapon specialisation etc., or 2 different weapon like sword/battle axe + warhammer to get slashing and bludgeonning type of damage. If one type of damage is not good switch to the other type weapon wielding it two-handed.
boatmanj 04-07-07, 06:04 PM	To keep it simple, I'm a big fan of twin shortswords, that way you can still get focus and other weapon specific feats for both without an additional feat like Oversized Two Weapon fighting or Monkey Grip. Other than that maybe a double weapon.
JhyarelleNightwind 04-07-07, 06:12 PM	Can't go wrong with a pair of war claws. If you dip a level or two in monk you can flurry with them and go Wolverine on some poor shmuck.
Dalmaris_cerebromancer 04-07-07, 06:47 PM	My favorite: 2 rapiers, and imp critical (rapier) This is great if you are a rogue. Nothing's better than a sneak attack with 2 weapons with a 17-20 crit range. If you are a fighter go for the biggest most damaging weapons you can posibly weild. Mix this with power attack. If you are a barbarian same as fighter but I would suggest around level 11 take some ranks in Tempest (comp warrior).
Khadmus 04-08-07, 07:04 AM	Look at the feats he has. We've all forgotten to do this recently i think. He has oversized two-weapon fighting. He does not have any exotic weapon proficiencies (and I can assume that he would have told us about any open feat slots). He does not have weapon finesse. He has the fully developed "basic" feat tree.
DarkflameX 04-08-07, 11:13 AM	my character with two weapon fighting isnt proficient with martial weapons so im using 2 sickles, and they havent failed me yet. i also like two bastard swords
draconic_swine 04-08-07, 01:30 PM	Greatsword + Armor Spikes. Can't be beat. Seconded. Although two kukris are also pretty good, especially at higher levels when base damage matters less and criticals matter more.
Teabeeyea 04-08-07, 09:10 PM	All most no one ever thinks to do this... but... Most TWF PC builds depend on high dex and thus light armor. So, why give up a shield if you don't have too? Any One Handed weapon plus a Light Spiked Shield. And take Improved Shield Bash. Yes, your off hand attack is only 1d4. But you STILL HAVE A SHIELD. Then Enchant your shield for a higher Shield Bonas. Much more cost effective way to increase the AC of your Two-Weapon Fighting PC. You can seperately enchant the shield spikes as a wepon.
Whisper_Swiftblade 04-08-07, 09:20 PM	quarter staff.
Grey_Herald 04-08-07, 10:00 PM	I'm surprised that no one caught this. Ozzymandias, you can't use a two-handed weapon in one hand with monkeygrip; it just doesn't work that way. Monkeygrip allows you to use a two-hander 1 size larger than you in two hands or a one-hander 1 size larger in one hand; however, it never lets you use a two-hander sized for you in one hand. I believe the wording on the feat says "Monkeygrip allows you to change the size of the weapon that you are wielding, but not the amount of effort required to wield it." Or something very similar to that. As for the two weapon fighting, I have always been a fan of either a sickle and a warhammer, or a sickle and a flail (sickle for tripping, flail for disarming) if you have the feats to spend on Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, and Improved Trip. Also, a warhammer and a dwarven waraxe tend to be rather deadly in the hands of a dwarf with the Anvil of Thunder weapon style feat out of the Complete Warrior.
Riplox 04-08-07, 10:20 PM	Grey_Herald, you're close, but not quite right. It says you can use a weapon one size larger than you in one hand, but with the coming of 3.5, the way weapons were sized changed. In S&F they use an example of a halfling using a longsword in one hand which is normally a two-handed weapon for a halfling in 3.0, and thus they weild a shortsword as their longsword. So a human with TWF, Oversized TWF, and Monkey Grip in 3.5 can wield two medium-sized greatswords.
G_Mancer 04-08-07, 10:42 PM	lol if you want bonuses to AC.... go twin shields! two heavy sheild with spikes. take the shield spec, and shield ward and active shield defence and shield bash and all that goodness. you can dual wield 1d6 weps, with a +6 to AC (2x2 for heavy shield, and shield spec increases each by 1).
Riplox 04-08-07, 10:46 PM	Sorry, but shield bonuses don't stack G_Mancer. Other than that, it's a good idea.
Grey_Herald 04-08-07, 10:49 PM	I assume S&F is in reference to Sword and Fist, which was 3.0, not 3.5, so therefore using examples out of it pertaining to the Monkeygrip feat in Complete Warrior tends to invalidates your point. But according to the rules as stated for Monkeygrip, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, the weapon sizing charts, etc. in 3.5, a human wielding a medium sized two-handed sword in one hand is impossible.
Airos 04-09-07, 12:08 AM	I assume S&F is in reference to Sword and Fist, which was 3.0, not 3.5, so therefore using examples out of it pertaining to the Monkeygrip feat in Complete Warrior tends to invalidates your point. But according to the rules as stated for Monkeygrip, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, the weapon sizing charts, etc. in 3.5, a human wielding a medium sized two-handed sword in one hand is impossible. ...pre-epic. Wield Over-Sized Weapon, [epic] feat found in Complete Warrior. As for the OP, I tend to go with long swords myself. Given the feats you have chosen, it would make very little sense to suggest a double weapon, (two-bladed sword, quarterstaff, etc...), or a light weapon, (short sword, shield, kukri, etc...). I think there's a feat in Forgotten Realms, Twin Sword Style if I'm not mistaken, that grants some bonus or another for wielding two of the same weapon. If you are playing a Drow, dual-wielding Scimitars is against the law. We know where you live, and the FBI are on their way. :P
Riplox 04-09-07, 12:08 AM	Well, shoot. Didn't know they had Monkey Grip in Complete Warrior. Well I read it and it is just about the same as the old one but with adjustments for the new sizing rules (which I think totally suck and complicate things far more than need be). What it says is that you can wield a large version of a one-handed weapon in one hand rather than two. So a large longsword does 2d6 damage which is EXACTLY the same as a greatsword. So why are you saying you can't use a two-handed sword the same size as you in one hand when they are mechanically the same? This makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Frugal 04-09-07, 12:09 AM	Grey_Herald, you're close, but not quite right. It says you can use a weapon one size larger than you in one hand, but with the coming of 3.5, the way weapons were sized changed. In S&F they use an example of a halfling using a longsword in one hand which is normally a two-handed weapon for a halfling in 3.0, and thus they weild a shortsword as their longsword. So a human with TWF, Oversized TWF, and Monkey Grip in 3.5 can wield two medium-sized greatswords. As has already been stated, Monkey Grip was reworked in 3.5 in Complete Warrior, the S&F fist is not valid for 3.5. The 3.5 version does not allow you to wield a 2-handed weapon in 1 hand. It was completely reworked because of the fact that weapon sizing was reworked. The way it worked in 3.0 doesn't make sense in 3.5.
Demon_Paladin 04-09-07, 12:27 AM	Play a Dwarf, grab Monkey Grip, and wield a Large Dwarven Waraxe in your forehand, and a medium one in your offhand. 2d8/1d10 damage, plus your Dwarf is wielding weapons easily 2-3 times his size :D I'll one up you on that. Take five levels in tempest (CA) take monkey grip and exotic weapon( Warmace). At a -2 on your primary attack, you're doing 3d6 primary/ 1d12 offhand. The only other cost is a -2 penalty to ac.
Frugal 04-09-07, 12:55 AM	Well, shoot. Didn't know they had Monkey Grip in Complete Warrior. Well I read it and it is just about the same as the old one but with adjustments for the new sizing rules (which I think totally suck and complicate things far more than need be). What it says is that you can wield a large version of a one-handed weapon in one hand rather than two. So a large longsword does 2d6 damage which is EXACTLY the same as a greatsword. So why are you saying you can't use a two-handed sword the same size as you in one hand when they are mechanically the same? This makes no sense to me whatsoever. Because a large longsword is not the same thing as a medium greatsword. You have to find that large longsword for starters. Plus it's mechanically different in terms of its use as an appropriately (or inappropriately) sized weapon if you don't have monkey grip. Plus it matters because there are situations where not being able to wield a 2 hander in 1 hand comes up. For instance, you can't use monkey grip to wield a spiked chain in 1 hand (this would be obscenely unbalancing) or a scythe for that matter. It may not matter for a greatsword (in terms of damage) but it does have wider implications.
Terjon of the Blue Rose 04-09-07, 01:09 AM	Dire Flail. Size large weapon with bonus to trip and disarm. Enchant one end for combat and the other with sweeping and disarming.
mvincent 04-09-07, 01:29 PM	Sunblade and a bastard sword.
Frugal 04-09-07, 01:57 PM	Sunblade and a bastard sword. Forget that, monkey grip a large sunblade for primary and a medium one for off-hand. Actually, depending on how you rule the whole effort thing, you might just treat it as a large shortsword for effort which would mean you could 1 hand it as a medium creature without monkey grip (although still with a -2 for inappropriately sized weapon).
T_K 04-09-07, 02:31 PM	Feats are two weapon fighting, imp two wep, greater two wep, and oversized teo wep. What do you recomend? Scimitars. I guess at your level, the base weapon damage isn't too crucial and the scimitar's crit range is especially useful when you get to make more attack rolls. Keen and haste effects, of course, help you take maximum advantage of this. Magical scimitars turn up fairly frequently, too, at least compared to some of the previous suggestions. I won't suggest more feats, since you obviously don't want to wait three levels to get the combination to work. Monkey gripping is a bit iffy from a "reality check" point of view, especially once you try to deal with oddities like a large longsword or shortsword... Also, some DMs don't like to see the silly weapons like spiked chains, Dwarven waraxes or double axes. No DM will object to two scimitars. Of course, I'm assuming a fairly strict gaming style, where the rules are interpreted to model reality to some extent and the DM won't go out of his way to place Large kamas in the treasure trove just when you need them. Your DM might be more accommodating and optimization-friendly. :)
Defensor_Vindex 04-09-07, 02:35 PM	IDK how, but two spiked chains are just awesome, it reminds me of a kyton, or Liu Kang if anybody's seen the newer mortal kombat games. Man tht guy gives me a woody.
RavenDrake 04-09-07, 03:40 PM	Forget that, monkey grip a large sunblade for primary and a medium one for off-hand. Actually, depending on how you rule the whole effort thing, you might just treat it as a large shortsword for effort which would mean you could 1 hand it as a medium creature without monkey grip (although still with a -2 for inappropriately sized weapon). Actually you wouldn't need Monkey Grip. Sunblade can be weilded as a shortsword(a light weapon for a medium character) for all purposes so you can wield a Large Sunblade one handed with no feat. That means, that you can weild a pair of large Sunblades for a total -4 penalty on each attack(-2 for two-weapon fighting and -2 for inappropriately sized weapon).
mvincent 04-09-07, 03:47 PM	Actually you wouldn't need Monkey Grip. Sunblade can be weilded as a shortsword(a light weapon for a medium character) for all purposes so you can wield a Large Sunblade one handed with no feat. That means, that you can weild a pair of large Sunblades for a total -4 penalty on each attack(-2 for two-weapon fighting and -2 for inappropriately sized weapon).See, that's just incentive to use monkey grip to wield two huge sunblades. And then get enlarged. ... and then maybe take viagra while driving a sportscar
Frugal 04-09-07, 05:19 PM	See, that's just incentive to use monkey grip to wield two huge sunblades. And then get enlarged. ... and then maybe take viagra while driving a sportscar Except that monkey grip only works on weapons 1 size category larger than you are, you can't wield a huge weapon with monkey grip if you're medium, period.
Frugal 04-09-07, 05:20 PM	IDK how, but two spiked chains are just awesome, it reminds me of a kyton, or Liu Kang if anybody's seen the newer mortal kombat games. Man tht guy gives me a woody. Except unless you're wielding a small spiked chain (assuming a medium creature) 1 handed and taking the -2 due to inappropriately sized weapons (and losing reach, btw) there's no way to dual wield spiked chains in 3.5 that I know of.
Tenadros 04-09-07, 05:48 PM	Uzis If you're feeling really munchkiny, uranium uzis. Then take a few levels of ninja to to make people mad.
mvincent 04-09-07, 06:01 PM	Except that monkey grip only works on weapons 1 size category larger than you are, you can't wield a huge weapon with monkey grip if you're medium, period.Heh, I figured someone might mention that (so take no offense here: you were basically set up): A strict reading of RAW might give that interpretation, however, RAI (rules as intended) is subject to interpretation here, and the 3.5 FAQ appears to have a different one from yours. It says: "A Medium creature with the powerful build racial trait, such as a goliath or halfgiant, with the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (fullblade) feat could also wield a Huge fullblade." (Powerful build has similar wording to monkey grip) Also note: I'm not saying which interpretation to use, merely that such an interpretation is both possible and reasonable. So, the combo I suggested (in jest) is certainly possible (even if not evey DM would allow it)... period.
Frugal 04-09-07, 06:22 PM	Heh, I figured someone might mention that (so take no offense here: you were basically set up): A strict reading of RAW might give that interpretation, however, RAI (rules as intended) is subject to interpretation here, and the 3.5 FAQ appears to have a different one from yours. It says: "A Medium creature with the powerful build racial trait, such as a goliath or halfgiant, with the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (fullblade) feat could also wield a Huge fullblade." (Powerful build has similar wording to monkey grip) Also note: I'm not saying which interpretation to use, merely that such an interpretation is both possible and reasonable. So, the combo I suggested (in jest) is certainly possible (even if not evey DM would allow it)... period. Note that I said using monkey grip. Yes, with powerful build and EWP (Fullblade) you can wield a huge fullblade. Not sure about the rules as intended argument given that monkey grip is explicit in its wording that it's 1 size category larger than you are, I'd say it's pretty clear that the intention is to limit you to weapons 1 size larger and no larger under any circumstances.
mvincent 04-09-07, 07:02 PM	Note that I said using monkey grip. Yes, with powerful build and EWP (Fullblade) you can wield a huge fullblade.Powerful Build (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) says "can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty."... much like the wording for monkey grip.
DM_V2 04-09-07, 07:33 PM	hmmmm... I GOT IT...scimitars...Yep definetly scimitars. and while you're at it make sure your a drow ranger with a tragic past.:D
Frugal 04-09-07, 10:48 PM	Powerful Build (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) says "can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty."... much like the wording for monkey grip. Nope, Monkey Grip says, "You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are...." Note that it's the weapon's size relative to your size, not what size the weapon is designed for. So a huge fullblade might very well be wieldable by a large creature with EWP (fullblade) but that still doesn't change the fact that it's a huge sized weapon and thus not able to be used with monkey grip by a medium creature as it's 2 size categories bigger.
sigea 04-09-07, 11:36 PM	If we are talking exotic weapons, why don't people think of the Kusami Gama (or something like that) that is found in the DMG. It's a one handed light weapon with 10ft reach but also allows you to attack opponents adjacent to you.
mvincent 04-09-07, 11:57 PM	Nope, Monkey Grip says, "You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are...." Note that it's the weapon's size relative to your size, not what size the weapon is designed for.Er... are you by chance referencing 3.0 terminology that has been removed from 3.5? It seems that you are. Weapons no longer have their own size in 3.5, they are now instead referenced as by light/1-handed/2-handed, and by the size of the intended wielder. Can anyone here give the applicable text for the 3.5 version of monkey grip?
T_K 04-10-07, 12:18 AM	hmmmm... I GOT IT...scimitars...Yep definetly scimitars. and while you're at it make sure your a drow ranger with a tragic past.:D I thought them was falchions. Scimitars are thinner and not heavy at the tip. I don't read fantasy novels, so I don't know what they're called in the books, thoough. On the cover, they're clearly falchions.
TheOinodaemon 04-10-07, 12:20 AM	I would say flails (been reading The Promise of the Witchking), it makes a cool visual.
Optimator 04-10-07, 12:28 AM	Power Attack > Monkey Grip. Wounding > All.
Pezix 04-10-07, 12:37 AM	I think I would go with depending more on your other feats and abilities, either two quickblade rapiers, two broadblade short swords, or a pair of wakizashis, or any combo of the two. A combo of a broadblade short sword (+2 AC when using total defense maneuver in addition to the already +4) and a quickblade rapier (+2 to disarm or avoid being disarmed, and when feinting +2 to bluff checks) thats a pretty good combo and with any of the critical booster feats or maybe having the weapons Keen makes for at least a 15% of getting a critical strike each attack. So I know the D6 damage for each of the weapons is alright and having no reach is a set back but it was just my opinion.:D
j3st3r 04-10-07, 04:23 AM	I thought them was falchions. Scimitars are thinner and not heavy at the tip. I don't read fantasy novels, so I don't know what they're called in the books, thoough. On the cover, they're clearly falchions. Icingdeath and Twinkle are scimitars, signature weapons of Drizzt Do'Urden. They have been wielded by Drizzt since The Icewind Dale Trilogy.
T_K 04-10-07, 06:26 AM	Icingdeath and Twinkle are scimitars, signature weapons of Drizzt Do'Urden. They have been wielded by Drizzt since The Icewind Dale Trilogy. So now I know. Do I have to be careful with the dual scimitar build in the future? I'd like to avoid the snickers of fantasy-literate DMs. (although, TBH, it's a good deal less ridiculous than some of the other weapon combos ITT. At least the dual scimitar style has examples in the real world)
Frugal 04-10-07, 08:51 AM	Er... are you by chance referencing 3.0 terminology that has been removed from 3.5? It seems that you are. Weapons no longer have their own size in 3.5, they are now instead referenced as by light/1-handed/2-handed, and by the size of the intended wielder. Can anyone here give the applicable text for the 3.5 version of monkey grip? That was a direct quote from CW, the 3.5 source for Monkey Grip. Weapons do still have sizes, they just don't work the way they did in 3.0; they are, as you said, the indication of what size category creature the weapon is designed for.
Spikes01k 04-10-07, 09:01 AM	The most damaging finesse weapon (without using monkey grip) is the Elven Thinblade or the Ribbonweave. The Thinblade has a higher critical rating (18-20) than the Ribbonweave (19-20). They are in Races of the Wild and Races of Eberron, respectively. The elven courtblade is also in RotW, and is 2-handed. Finesse, 1d10, 18-20. Second, this, maybe alternatively Elven Court Blade with Armor spikes?? J/K But the Elven Thinblade is probably the best bet.
WhylniaPendragon 04-10-07, 01:22 PM	Second, this, maybe alternatively Elven Court Blade with Armor spikes?? J/K But the Elven Thinblade is probably the best bet. I agree with this, also. Make both of them Large (they'll each do 2d6) and make them keen (15-20/x2).
Terjon of the Blue Rose 04-12-07, 12:13 AM	So now I know. Do I have to be careful with the dual scimitar build in the future? I'd like to avoid the snickers of fantasy-literate DMs. (although, TBH, it's a good deal less ridiculous than some of the other weapon combos ITT. At least the dual scimitar style has examples in the real world) As long as yer not a dark elf ranger and are going for the dervish prestige class you should be ok. If you are then yeah yer gonna get snickers (and I don't mean the candy). Of course if yer in the realms there is a good chance your character is simply trying to emulate a personal hero.
rbingham2000 04-13-07, 12:46 PM	Twin Sunblades. Usable with shortsword focus and proficiencies, finessable, light enough to be dual-wielded, and absolute hell on evil guys and the living dead in particular. I'm thinking either the Fighter, the Barbarian (for the battlerage), the Paladin (for the Smite Evil opportunities when using such weapons and the awesome image in general), or the Ranger (who would have Undead as his favored enemy) for their general wielder.
Frugal 04-13-07, 12:51 PM	Twin Sunblades. Usable with shortsword focus and proficiencies, finessable, light enough to be dual-wielded, and absolute hell on evil guys and the living dead in particular. I'm thinking either the Fighter, the Barbarian (for the battlerage), the Paladin (for the Smite Evil opportunities when using such weapons and the awesome image in general), or the Ranger (who would have Undead as his favored enemy) for their general wielder. I'm not clear on whether it's a finesseable weapon, it says it's treated as one for amount of effort and that focus and specialization for shortsword work with it but it doesn't say anything about finesse.
rbingham2000 04-13-07, 12:53 PM	I'm not clear on whether it's a finesseable weapon, it says it's treated as one for amount of effort and that focus and specialization for shortsword work with it but it doesn't say anything about finesse. Probably a good point.
Spikes01k 04-13-07, 01:15 PM	I agree with this, also. Make both of them Large (they'll each do 2d6) and make them keen (15-20/x2). Yeah, and that is even easier with the strong are bracers!
RavenDrake 04-13-07, 02:20 PM	I'm not clear on whether it's a finesseable weapon, it says it's treated as one for amount of effort and that focus and specialization for shortsword work with it but it doesn't say anything about finesse. That dosen't make any sense. If it's treated as a Shortsword for the ammount of effort it takes to weild it, then it's light. And all light weapon's are finessable. Unless you're interpretation of "ammount of effort" is something else... I'm curious to know exactly what you regard that as, as it would help understand how you treat sunblades.
Frugal 04-13-07, 02:40 PM	That dosen't make any sense. If it's treated as a Shortsword for the ammount of effort it takes to weild it, then it's light. And all light weapon's are finessable. Unless you're interpretation of "ammount of effort" is something else... I'm curious to know exactly what you regard that as, as it would help understand how you treat sunblades. No I'm on crack and thinking of 1 handed weapons that are finesseable.
Azire 04-22-07, 08:58 PM	If you dont mind picking up another feat and spending some big gold, take a peek at the mercurial greatsword. Its an exotic weapon but for 2d6 with a x4 multiplier on a critical hit its one of my favorites. Pick up a set of Strong Arm Bracers to make you be considered 1 size category larger for purposes of wielding weapons. You can now wield a large weapon in each hand and have them considered light weapons. Now get yourself 2 mercurial greatswords one size larger than normal, so they're considered huge weapons. Put keen on each one, then give them balanced. Balanced being a +1 enchantment that makes the weapon be considered 1 size category smaller than it really is, bringing it down to a (large) weapon, which is considered one handed because of the Strong Arm Bracers. Put this all together and you have a weapon in each hand dealing 3d6 on a normal hit, with a 19-20 crit range to deal 4 times as much damage.
Frugal 04-23-07, 08:57 AM	If you dont mind picking up another feat and spending some big gold, take a peek at the mercurial greatsword. Its an exotic weapon but for 2d6 with a x4 multiplier on a critical hit its one of my favorites. Pick up a set of Strong Arm Bracers to make you be considered 1 size category larger for purposes of wielding weapons. You can now wield a large weapon in each hand and have them considered light weapons. Now get yourself 2 mercurial greatswords one size larger than normal, so they're considered huge weapons. Put keen on each one, then give them balanced. Balanced being a +1 enchantment that makes the weapon be considered 1 size category smaller than it really is, bringing it down to a (large) weapon, which is considered one handed because of the Strong Arm Bracers. Put this all together and you have a weapon in each hand dealing 3d6 on a normal hit, with a 19-20 crit range to deal 4 times as much damage. Wow, um, where do you start with this? The mixing of 3.0 and 3.5 weapon sizing would be a good start. Not to mention the use of dubious 3.0 material that's never been updated (balanced works on 3.0 weapon sizes, it's fairly easy to guess how it would work in 3.5 sizes but there's never been an update that I know of). I think what you're saying is to wear strong-arm braces to treat yourself as large, then wield a medium mercurial greatsword in each hand, with the -2 penalty for inappropriate size (remember, you're treated as large), then apply the balanced enhancement to make them a medium one-handed weapon, which you can then treat as a light weapon. I don't know the rules on strong-arm bracers so I can't comment on that part of the build.
Rulebook 04-23-07, 11:10 AM	warmaces. gotta love that whole unamed from the same bonus not stacking thing.
Prak, the Mad 04-23-07, 01:07 PM	if you can get balanced proficient ones, fullblades.
Gavinfoxx 04-25-07, 01:55 PM	...wow, you all are sure choosing some sub-optimal choices. Oversized two weapon fighting? Monkey grip? Wow, worst feats ever! Monkey grip only averages ONE POINT OF DAMAGE. ONE. ugh. thats pitiful. Don't you all know anything about optimization? I know this isnt the optimization forum, but STILL... No one has said anything about the fighter2/swashbuckler3/dervish10/tempest5 build that uses twin scimitars, finessable? How about the fighter2/swashbuckler3/rogue15 build that uses telling blow and a rapier and a kukri, for the crit capacity (more crits = more sneak attacks!)? And if you all want shields with those builds, get improved buckler defense and use a buckler. Don't even think of getting improved two weapon defense. Really, if you want to fight with two weapons, have an alternative way of doing extra damage, like the swashbuckler's int to damage, or sneak attack, or the dervish dance... With two weapon fighting, it isnt the damage of the actual WEAPON that gets you the damage, its your class abilities that gets you the damage...
TeenageHeat 04-25-07, 02:08 PM	axe and sword and go into High Sword, Low Axe, you'll be tripping things like a monster and getting free attacks. taking Double Hit and Combat Reflexes means you'll be tripping them and free attacking them with your AoO. axe and hammer is pretty ill too, hitting with both would net you getting them dazed 1 round with Anvil Of Thunder.
Devlonir 04-25-07, 04:33 PM	I see a lot of people saying that you get two weapons of one size larger in your hands thanks to monkey grip.. IIRC (and the poster with the dwarven waraxes actually got it right) Monkey grip does not allow you to wield one size category larger in your off hand. And oversized two weapon fighting allows you to use a 1-hander for your size in your off hand as if it were a light weapon. So, being a dwarf and using the large dwarven waraxe/medium dwarven waraxe build is probably the best way to go without breaking rules.
Gavinfoxx 04-25-07, 07:05 PM	Guyysss... you keep on forgetting that MONKEY GRIP SUCKS! It is a terrible, terrible feat, just like weapon focus!
Pezix 04-26-07, 04:12 AM	I think you should just time travel to like the future then just get yourself a pair of megaman hands........ Im pretty sure those are like equal to a maximized 10D6 fireball.........YEP!.... and since there are rules for half golems its completely realistic... use your imaginations guys!:D
Airos 04-27-07, 01:34 AM	...wow, you all are sure choosing some sub-optimal choices. Oversized two weapon fighting? Monkey grip? Wow, worst feats ever! Monkey grip only averages ONE POINT OF DAMAGE. ONE. ugh. thats pitiful. Don't you all know anything about optimization? I know this isnt the optimization forum, but STILL... No one has said anything about the fighter2/swashbuckler3/dervish10/tempest5 build that uses twin scimitars, finessable? How about the fighter2/swashbuckler3/rogue15 build that uses telling blow and a rapier and a kukri, for the crit capacity (more crits = more sneak attacks!)? And if you all want shields with those builds, get improved buckler defense and use a buckler. Don't even think of getting improved two weapon defense. Really, if you want to fight with two weapons, have an alternative way of doing extra damage, like the swashbuckler's int to damage, or sneak attack, or the dervish dance... With two weapon fighting, it isnt the damage of the actual WEAPON that gets you the damage, its your class abilities that gets you the damage... Guyysss... you keep on forgetting that MONKEY GRIP SUCKS! It is a terrible, terrible feat, just like weapon focus! Yes, because everyone wants to play the most tricked out, optimized, uber-character in the world. :rolleyes: If it isn't the best ability, then it has no place on anyone's character sheet. Hell, we should all just play hulking hurlers and pun puns, since they win at D&D.
Devlonir 04-27-07, 02:53 AM	Guyysss... you keep on forgetting that MONKEY GRIP SUCKS! It is a terrible, terrible feat, just like weapon focus! Ehm.. weapon focus is one feat, that combined with leap attack and power attack can increase your damage by 4! I wouldnt put down weapon focus that much. Also it is a prereq for many good, weapon oriented prestige classes. Oversized two weapon fighting is worth the feat because you get to use two one handers and can take all the weapon feats just once. The only other way to get that is by using two light weapons, so that means both weapon dice go down by an average 1 for your off hand attacks, which goes up to 7attacks with a few more feats, assuming only half hit, that is still 3.5 more damage with 1 feat (assuming you are going for two weapon fighting style anyway)! Now, monkey grip.. that only increase base damage by 1 and, unlike many others assume here, cannot be used for your off hand. So for a two handed warrior type, oversized two weapon fighting, combined with two identical weapons and weapon focus, weapon spec and their improved versions are worth it's buck easilly.
Frugal 04-27-07, 07:55 AM	Yes, because everyone wants to play the most tricked out, optimized, uber-character in the world. :rolleyes: If it isn't the best ability, then it has no place on anyone's character sheet. Hell, we should all just play hulking hurlers and pun puns, since they win at D&D. Um, we're in a thread discussing what the best weapons are for a dual wielding build, I'd say it's a pretty save bet that the goal is to play the most tricked out, optimized, uber-character in the world. Yes, monkey grip can be cool for style points but it is perfectly valid to say that it's not worth the feat in the context of this thread, which is clearly an optimisation exercise.
Harbin_Dunewalker 04-27-07, 11:12 AM	It's also fun to go Thri-Kreen with the Multiweapon Fighting feats all the way up to Greater Multiweapon Fighting. I managed to make a character progression that could get to Dervish 10/Tempest 4. He had so many attacks, if he Dervish Danced, he wouldn't have been able to get them all in due to the 5' step before each attack requirement. One Thousand Cuts + MWF = For one turn, you become a BLENDER. 26 attacks for that one turn. Oh, and he had Improved Crit: Scimitar, so they all had a threat range of 15-20. You can do it without the Dervish if you just take Oversized Multiweapon Fighting (A reasonable houserule from TWF, IMO), but you lose One Thousand Cuts.
mtrpcic 04-27-07, 05:04 PM	Go with two Falchions, and take Improved Critical(Falchion) as a feat. That gives 2d4 per Falchion damage, with a 15-20 crit range. I'll just use a fighter as an example, and say at level 20 you'd have 4 primary hand attacks, and 3 off hand attacks. That's 7 attacks, each with a 25% chance of critting. Pretty good.
Frugal 04-27-07, 05:08 PM	Go with two Falchions, and take Improved Critical(Falchion) as a feat. That gives 2d4 per Falchion damage, with a 15-20 crit range. I'll just use a fighter as an example, and say at level 20 you'd have 4 primary hand attacks, and 3 off hand attacks. That's 7 attacks, each with a 25% chance of critting. Pretty good. That's only valid if a 15 is a hit.
mtrpcic 04-27-07, 05:21 PM	That's only valid if a 15 is a hit. It doesn't matter what is a hit or not. If you roll a 15 or above, it's a critical, which is a hit no matter what. Thus, there is a 25% chance that you will critical (but not as high for confirming). There is a 25% chance to critical, and another 25% chance to confirm the critical with another critical.
Frugal 04-27-07, 05:28 PM	It doesn't matter what is a hit or not. If you roll a 15 or above, it's a critical, which is a hit no matter what. Thus, there is a 25% chance that you will critical (but not as high for confirming). There is a 25% chance to critical, and another 25% chance to confirm the critical with another critical. No it isn't: Increased Threat Range Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat. (emphasis mine)
mtrpcic 04-27-07, 05:30 PM	Wow, I did not know that. I shall inform my DM. Or...maybe not..We'll see. Thanks.
Johannixx 04-29-07, 04:29 AM	Elven Courtblade + armor spikes + Deadly Defense (from Complete Scoundrel)+ Combat Expertise. Sure, you take a -4 to attacks to make it work, but you get +2 AC, and deal 1d10+1d6+(Str+1.5) with primary attacks, and 2d6+(Str/2) with off-hand attacks. Deadly defense only says you have to be wielding a finesseable or light weapon. It doesn't say you actually have to be using (or even have) the Weapon Finesse feat.
Threefists 04-29-07, 07:03 AM	A possible Two-Weapon/Monkey-Grip weapon would be the Khopesh. Admittedly it would require Exotic Weapon feat or the Skillful enhancement, but the ability to trip with either weapon is worth it, and you also retain the longsword damage and critical rate. If the rare, stunning critical is more your style, Dual-Wielding Heavy Picks (or Dire Picks if you feel like completely throwing any remaining sense of realism out on it's ass) or Mercurial Longswords does wonders. For the more common criticals, (And some of these have been mentioned before, I know) Kukris, Elven Lightblades, Scimitars ((if you play a Drow gesalt Ranger 20/Barbarian 14/Fighter 6 whose name even remotely sounds like Drizzit and pick these I will personally hunt you down and break both your knee-caps. Playing WoW with all those damn Drizzit clones has utterly ruined those novels for me. Here's hoping Obould finally stops getting backstabbed and bumps off Drizzit....PERMANENTLY dammit!)) Jambiya daggers or Quickblade Rapiers. Any other weapons out there with 18-20/x2 criticals we can slap down for the OP?
Draculator 04-29-07, 04:23 PM	Greetings! Pick up a set of Strong Arm Bracers to make you be considered 1 size category larger for purposes of wielding weapons. Where is this item from? Google didn't give me anything else but this thread which I had read already. Many thanks!!
Prak, the Mad 04-29-07, 04:39 PM	Ehm.. weapon focus is one feat, that combined with leap attack and power attack can increase your damage by 4! I wouldnt put down weapon focus that much. Also it is a prereq for many good, weapon oriented prestige classes. Oversized two weapon fighting is worth the feat because you get to use two one handers and can take all the weapon feats just once. The only other way to get that is by using two light weapons, so that means both weapon dice go down by an average 1 for your off hand attacks, which goes up to 7attacks with a few more feats, assuming only half hit, that is still 3.5 more damage with 1 feat (assuming you are going for two weapon fighting style anyway)! Now, monkey grip.. that only increase base damage by 1 and, unlike many others assume here, cannot be used for your off hand. So for a two handed warrior type, oversized two weapon fighting, combined with two identical weapons and weapon focus, weapon spec and their improved versions are worth it's buck easilly. speaking of overized two weapon fighting, bastard swords can be dual-weilded with it...
Gavinfoxx 04-29-07, 04:58 PM	Those monkey grip bracers are from magic item compendium. And why would any optimized build want to dual wield bastard swords?
Prak, the Mad 04-29-07, 10:22 PM	well, I don't study D&D books every second of every day(contrary to what some might think) so I hardly 'optimize'. I go with what sounds good, and I'd say a pair of bastard swords are pretty good... though I suppose you could use monkey grip(try not to faint, or explode, I like the feat...) and dual weild falchions, great axes, great swords, or perhaps, thanks to D&D's reletively loose weapon effort rules, scythes... They're all pretty good weapons, but I'd say bastard swords are nice because you just take EWP(bastard sword) and Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, and voila, you've got two 1d10 19-20/x2 weapons, great axe, greatsword, falchion or scythe require martial prof. and monkey grip, but there're reasons for those also. oh, and I'm sticking to core weapons here, because that's what I've easiest access to.
Gavinfoxx 04-29-07, 10:25 PM	Want me to run some numbers through with you sometime? Get on yahoo, maybe we can chat there... There are some major mechanical problems with dual wielding oversized bastard swords that make it a very, very, very suboptimal choice. If you want to know why, hop over to the character optimization board sometime, or just IM me so we can chat a little bit...
Optimator 04-29-07, 11:09 PM	For sure; you can't roleplay a dead character. Choices matter.
Airos 04-30-07, 06:28 AM	Um, we're in a thread discussing what the best weapons are for a dual wielding build, I'd say it's a pretty save bet that the goal is to play the most tricked out, optimized, uber-character in the world. Yes, monkey grip can be cool for style points but it is perfectly valid to say that it's not worth the feat in the context of this thread, which is clearly an optimisation exercise. Please excuse me while I disagree. ;) It's perfectly valid to say that it's not worth discussing feats in the context of this thread since, as you've pointed out, the OP's question was what weapon was the best choice given the feats he or she has already selected. It's also perfectly valid to say that optimizing a character to be totally tricked out and uber would best be done on the Char-Op board, since this board is for the discussion of equipment and combat, neither of which involve feats, classes or races, all of which have been discussed thus far. While all of the suggestions thus far have merits in their own right, it's irks me when someone throws out a statement trying to "remind" everyone that a particular choice "sucks". And, for what it's worth, the only "safe" bets are death and taxes. :P
Frugal 04-30-07, 07:53 AM	well, I don't study D&D books every second of every day(contrary to what some might think) so I hardly 'optimize'. I go with what sounds good, and I'd say a pair of bastard swords are pretty good... though I suppose you could use monkey grip(try not to faint, or explode, I like the feat...) and dual weild falchions, great axes, great swords, or perhaps, thanks to D&D's reletively loose weapon effort rules, scythes... They're all pretty good weapons, but I'd say bastard swords are nice because you just take EWP(bastard sword) and Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, and voila, you've got two 1d10 19-20/x2 weapons, great axe, greatsword, falchion or scythe require martial prof. and monkey grip, but there're reasons for those also. As has been pointed out several times on this thread, you can't use monkey grip to wield a 2-handed weapon in 1 hand. So you can't dual wield falchions, great axes, greatswords or scythes.
Johannixx 04-30-07, 11:42 AM	Even better than my last idea: Elven Thinblade (wielded in two hands) and armor spikes. Add Deadly Defense, Combat Expertise and a level of Exotic Weapon Master for the Uncanny Blow ability. 1d8+1d6+2xStr bonus for on-hand attacks, 2d6+Str/2 for off-hand attacks. -4 to hit, +2 AC. Boo-yah.
mercboy666 04-30-07, 11:44 AM	personally i suggest using light to mid size quick weapons for rogues (such as sais or rapiers and daggers) and for a fighter class powerful weapons that are one handed and have a good crit rate (long swords or scimitars).
snakeman830 04-30-07, 03:47 PM	Two sunblades. If you are proficient with the shortsword, you are proficient with them. They deal damage as a bastard sword, and it would open up your Oversized two-weapon fighting slot for another feat (Weapon Focus (shortsword) possibly?). Plus, you never need a torch so long as you have them. And undead fear you. Very, very much.