Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tenguroEd 03-18-08, 06:33 PM	As the title suggest, what do you think is the best weapons for TWF? Me personally would have to say scimitars, but Drizzt had to ruin TWF with them, so I never been able to try it out. Also dual wielding shortswords, is nice also, and, from reading some threads on here, bastard swords.
StevenO 03-18-08, 07:09 PM	Mechanically, scimitars are HORRIBLE for wielding in pairs as both are one-handed weapons and thus suffer added penalties. Level in Dervish can get Scimitars treated as light weapons but the Oversized TWF feat also reduces the penalties. OTWF is also part of what makes dual-wielding Bastard Swords possible. Mechanically it is often good to wield the same weapon type in both hands to benefit from specific feats like Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization. If you aren't getting those it really doesn't matter and I'd strongly suggest using the one-handed/light weapon combo. I'd often like to mix up the damage types a little but the choice is really the same as if using a single weapon. With a few modifications I'd actually like trying Double-Weapons. The modification I'm talking about is making the "off-handed" end funtion as a light weapon ONLY when figuring the TWF penalties instead of all the time as it may officially be.
Thief_of_Hope 03-18-08, 07:20 PM	With a few modifications I'd actually like trying Double-Weapons. The modification I'm talking about is making the "off-handed" end funtion as a light weapon ONLY when figuring the TWF penalties instead of all the time as it may officially be. From what I recall, I think that double weapons, when you are wielding it so as to use both parts of it, are treated as wielding a one-handed weapon in your main hand and a light weapon in your off hand. When you wield it so as to only use one part of it, you're still wielding it in two hands, and it's a two-handed weapon. One side or the other isn't built to be "off handed", and isn't treated as light when you aren't two-weapon fighting.
StevenO 03-18-08, 07:55 PM	The thing about using double weapons with the RAW is what you lose out of for the "off-hand" and how things work. Power Attack using a Double-Weapon and you get to add that damage to one end if used TWF style because "light" weapons can't benefit from PA. At the same time Weapon Finesse suddenly can apply to the "off-hand end" of a Double Weapon. When using two one-handed weapons with the OTWF feat you suffer the same TWF penalties but at least things are consistent. Most of what I'd like to see is Double Weapons get the better TWF "penalties" but left as a two-hander or at least two one-handers for everything else. You already spend a feat to get most double weapons so they should get something.
Firaeki 03-18-08, 09:39 PM	I actually use two punching daggers a lot. I know most people shun them for being inferior to daggers since dags can do slashing as well as peircing, are more common, and can be thrown, but they seem like more intimidating weapons and the style of combat surrounding their use is more interesting to me. Plus, think of the *3 crit.
BugHunter 03-18-08, 10:04 PM	Weapons that can take advantage of weapon finesse are also good to use.
jaelis 03-19-08, 12:22 AM	My opinion: - For the finesse fighter, a pair of shortswords. - If you want to go double weapon, I think the quarterstaff wins out. Save your feats for something better than EWP. - If you are a rogue with the Telling Blow feat, then a pair of kukris (if you have a class granting proficiency) or elven thinblades (if not). - If you have a high Str and the Power Attack feat, a greatsword plus your unarmed strike (requires IUS or monk levels). - For anyone else, a spiked light shield.
blade265 03-19-08, 02:44 AM	Katana and Wakizashi. It would also depend on class, character size, etc.
Salla 03-19-08, 01:01 PM	A pair of short swords, definitely.
mvincent 03-19-08, 01:20 PM	what do you think is the best weapons for TWF?Sun Blade + Bastard sword (or for a monk: unarmed strikes)
Nathreet 03-19-08, 03:28 PM	Doesn't matter very much since a good TWFer better be getting his damage from something else. Maybe daggers for versatility. Melee, range, tool, easy to conceal, 2 damage types, easy to find.
Vharuck 03-19-08, 03:32 PM	Combos I like (or really want to use one day, just to see how they'd perform): 1) A Dozen Daggers: You get the benefits of weapon-specific feats to both weapons, with Quick Draw you can use Two Weapon Fighting to make ranged attacks, they are concealable (many people seem to focus only on the short battles when making decisions, but a lot of the game's challenges occur outside of battle, like frisking guards), they're cheap (so a 1st level character can easily afford a dozen), and a dagger's utility can never be stressed enough (eating, carving messages in trees, cutting rope, escaping from the stomach of a horrible man-eating monstrosity, etc). 2) Longsword and Whip: Did I say whip? You bet I did! While very, very true that trying to damage anything other than poor defenseless peasants with a whip is grounds for admittance into a mental health clinic, the whip has so many benefits that people overlook when fixated on the negatives. True, a whip does only nonlethal damage to unarmored foes, but that's not it's function in this little combo. The longsword is the weapon of choice for straight one-handed damage; you'll be using this to put the hurt on your opponents. The whip is to give you the upper hand tactically. You don't charge; you ready an action to trip the opponent with your whip when he's 10 ft away. If he's not able to stand up during his turn, good. If he does, that was probably the last thing he can do this turn. Now on your turn, use the whip to first trip him if he got up and (if you have the BAB to attack with the whip again this turn or if he was already prone) follow up by disarming him with your whip (when prone, he suffers a -4 penalty to the opposed attack roll, then 5 ft step next to him and begin the longsword pummeling. In straight toe-to-toe melee, either position yourself to use the whip tactically or simply rely on normal full attacks with your longsword (once you get enough gold, enchanting your whip to have the defending property seems like a pretty good idea for when you're only attacking with the sword). Yes, I know it is likely extremely subpar to the classic spiked chain fighter, but I like it. 3) Dire Flail: The bane of historical weapon enthusiasts, the dire flail is actually pretty tempting as a weapon. Each end deals 1d8 damage, and it can be used to both trip and disarm. Also works well with power attack when wielded as a two-handed weapon. If you can't tell, I value versatility and keeping options open very highly. 4) Gnome Hooked Hammer: Like the dire flail, as a double-ended weapon it's pretty nice, and while it can't disarm it can still trip. And hey, trippable foes are far more common than disarmable. What makes this beauty nice is the crit modifiers. Make sure to use the 1d4/x4 head as your primary weapon, since then the crits will multiply a larger Strength bonus. While the base damages are pretty low (d6 and d4), remember this: as you level up the 1 or 2 damage difference between the hooked hammer's average and another weapon's becomes less of a factor, while the hooked hammer's crits wills always multiply by 3 or 4. 5) Greatsword and Armor Spikes: Is it a little cheesey? Maybe. But, as the bureaucrat from Futurama put it, "You are technically correct: the best kind of correct." You get the best of both worlds. You can swing for a lot of damage with your greatsword like all the other two-handed fighters (benefiting from the 1.5 x Strength bonus to damage), then drive your spiked kneeplate into your foe's gut as an extra attack. When you can only make one attack instead of a full attack, no worries. You're not like other two-weapon fighters, since your greatsword still does the damage that makes up for the lack of a shield. This can also be done with unarmed strikes instead of armor spikes, which opens up the Improved Unarmed Strike feat chain for the future. However, I don't like spending a feat to deal less damage simply for the prospect of spending more feats in the future (two of which, Deflect and Snatch Arrows, you can't use when fighting with a two-handed weapon, while Improved Grapple doesn't complement your tactics and Stunning Fist has the possibly problematic requirement of a 13 Wisdom). 6) Sword and Spiked Board: This is actually a good combination, especially made all the more tantalizing by the cool shield feats from the Player's Handbook II. With the simple feat Shield Bash, you can slam your opponent for 1d6 with your spiked heavy shield, stab him for 1d6 with your short sword, and still get that +2 to your AC. Once you enchant the shield with the bashing quality or its spikes with the defending quality, the pairing becomes even sweeter.
Fmu78 03-19-08, 04:05 PM	Light maces would be my choice. Take the lightning mace weapon style and have a blast.
jaelis 03-19-08, 04:14 PM	This can also be done with unarmed strikes instead of armor spikes, which opens up the Improved Unarmed Strike feat chain for the future. However, I don't like spending a feat to deal less damage simply for the prospect of spending more feats in the future (two of which, Deflect and Snatch Arrows, you can't use when fighting with a two-handed weapon, while Improved Grapple doesn't complement your tactics and Stunning Fist has the possibly problematic requirement of a 13 Wisdom). The reason to use unarmed strikes is because they can benefit from power attack.
ciaran 03-19-08, 07:16 PM	6) Sword and Spiked Board: This is actually a good combination, especially made all the more tantalizing by the cool shield feats from the Player's Handbook II. With the simple feat Shield Bash, you can slam your opponent for 1d6 with your spiked heavy shield, stab him for 1d6 with your short sword, and still get that +2 to your AC. Once you enchant the shield with the bashing quality or its spikes with the defending quality, the pairing becomes even sweeter. Why have I never seen the Bashing quality in the DMG until now? That is exactly what I've been wanting! So under the radar...
Belkar 03-20-08, 04:27 PM	There's a couple main "combat use" options to consider when TWF, that will lead you down a certain course - which will help determine your weapon(s) of choice. Much has been said. So - before we look at building the options, let's look at a few basic, but important, TWF precepts. 1) Any time you can apply one feat to both weapons (such as Weapon Focus, or Weapon Specialization), it's a very good thing. This lends you to either fight with identical weapons in each hand, or a double-weapon. 2) Is MAD a concern for you? If you're working with low to moderate ability buy points or crappy rolls, but your best into Dex, and take weapon finesse. If you can put your best into Str and still have high Dex to take the TWF feat chain, do that (you'll do more damage in the long run). If you're considering taking Weapon Finesse, consider a level dip into Swashbuckler. You'll gain it for free at first level, and gain proficiencies with a handful of exotic weapons, as well as some decent skill points - all without sacrificing your high BAB or d10 HD. 3) If you decide to weapon finesse it, you'll want a light weapon in your off hand (to minimize TWF penalties) - but by following precept #1, this necessitates identical light weapons in each hand. Choose one that does the most damage with the best crit range (shortsword usually the most common choice). The downside? One-handed, light weapon. Very easy to disarm. 4) If you don't have to Weapon Finesse it, then you can use a double weapon (since the off-hand end is considered "light", you'll minimize TWF penalties), and you'll be able to not only follow precept #1, but will be able to get 2-handed Str damage on a single attack (such as when you're forced to move, then attack, and can't get multiple attacks that round). The downside is that to get the best damage and crit from a double-weapon, you'll need to spend a feat on EWP. All metal double weapons are exotic, and you'll probably reach a point where you'll want silver/cold iron/adamantine. Double-weapons are two-handed, medium weapons. Very difficult to disarm. 5) Another option if you're not going Weapon Finesse, is to spend a feat on Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. This will let you wield d8 damage weapons in each hand. Spend another feat on EWP and using a bastard sword or dwarven waraxew will give you a d10 in each hand. But you won't get the 2-handed Str bonus to a single attack. A Couple Kooky TWF Builds I Like for 3rd level characters: Human Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2. Grab the Arms and Equipment Guide. If your DM will let you use it - grab a couple whip-daggers. These puppies do a 1d6 of lethal (armor or no), and are otherwise identical to whips. Whatever armor you're wearing, put armor spikes on it. Grab a level of Swashbuckler. This will give you proficiency in whips and Weapon Finesse at 1st level, along with decent skills, a d10 HD, and a Good BAB. Never return to Swashbuckler again. Pick up TWF as your level 1 feat, and Oversized TWF as your human feat. 2nd level (fighter 1), get Combat Expertise. 3rd level, grab Improved Trip or Improved Disarm (fighter 2), and Weapon Focus (whip) as your 3rd level feat. You now can wield two Finessable Whips that not only deal real damage, but can trip/disarm at 15'. Your TWF penalty is still only -1/-1. If someone gets adjacent to you - whack 'em with your armor spikes. Human Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2. Use either throwing axes or clubs (clubs are free). Both choices are 1d6 of damage, crit the same, and (most importantly) have a thrown range increment of 10'. At 1st level you'll get Weapon Finesse (swash 1), and pick up TWF, and Quick Draw as your other two feats. Grab Rapid Shot at 2nd (fighter 1). At 3rd, get Weapon Focus (fighter 2) and Far Shot. If you start the round with a weapon in each hand, you can throw them both 20', then draw another (Rapid Shot) and hurl it. If melee comes to town, you'll hold your own just as well (though you won't be able to take advantage of rapid shot). If you throw 2, your TWF penalty is only -1/-1, and only -3/-3/-3 to get a rapid shot in there. Dwarf Fighter 3. Automatic martial proficiency with dwarven waraxes. Level 1, get TWF and Oversized TWF. Level 2, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe). Level 3, Two Weapon Defense. 1d10 in each hand for only a -1/-1 penalty. (An identical build can be made with a human fighter 3, just take EWP (Bastard Sword) as your 1st level human feat.) Human Fighter 1/Spirit Shaman 2. This pseudo-gish turn a mediocre double-weapon into "uber-beat stick". Level 1; TWF, Weapon Focus (quarterstaff). Level 2, learn those lovely druid spells. Level 3, Combat Casting. This is how it goes: Round 1) Cast shillelagh, Round 2) Wade into combat with your (now) +1 quarterstaff that deals 2d6 of damage per side, Round 3) ????, Round 4) Profit!! With the magic on the weapon, you take an effective -0/-0 from TWF (though your BAB is -1 less than a pure fighter build). 2 Druid levels work here too, but Spirit Shaman gets more castings per day and doesn't have the silly "metal restriction" of a druid.
mvincent 03-20-08, 04:34 PM	Round 1) Cast shillelagh, Round 2) Wade into combat with your (now) +1 quarterstaff that deals 2d6 of damage per side, Round 3) ????, Round 4) Profit!!A monk with a bottle of shillelagh oil is a good option also (thanks to flurry). Even better if the monk is enlarged (and/or has monkey grip).
jaelis 03-20-08, 04:58 PM	Human Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2. Grab the Arms and Equipment Guide. If your DM will let you use it - grab a couple whip-daggers. Whip daggers were updated to 3.5 in Dragon magazine. Human Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2. Use either throwing axes or clubs (clubs are free). Clubs are not finessible or light, so they probably aren't as good an option.
Mercurius 03-20-08, 05:21 PM	I'm a big fan of the Kusari-gama from the DMG. 1d6, one handed, finessable mini-spiked chain with reach and adjacent. Slap a pair of those bad boys on a dervish, and the dance gets even more ridiculus. One of my favorite characters ever was a Swash3/Scout1/Fighter2/DervishX, since all the movement of the dance boosted my damage by 1d6 thanks to skirmish, and INT to damage isn't halved on the off-hand. Very handy character overall, and incredibly dangerous in the game I played her in.
Optimator 03-20-08, 11:02 PM	If ToB is available, use shortswords in conjunction with Shadow Blade. There is pretty much no better choice for the finesse TWFer. Throw in Swash3 and you have a nice thing going on, with the free weapon finesse at first level and Int->Damage with the third level.
Belkar 03-21-08, 10:08 AM	Clubs are not finessible or light, so they probably aren't as good an option.[slaps hand to forehead] Duh. I stand corrected. ;) But I went home last night and looked through Complete Adventurer... :devil: So I've got another 3 level build for ya! Human Barbarian 1/Fighter 2. Do whatever you can to max your Str, but still have the Dex prereq for TWF. This is a Str fighter that is a thrower. Level 1, grab TWF and Power Attack. Level 2, pick up Brutal Throw. Level 3, get Rapid Shot. Dual wield throwing axes, for their 1d6 of damage, but with Brutal Throw, Str becomes your ability modifier for thrown weapons, not Dex. Assume you have a 16 Str, at 3 level - while not raging, you can throw 2 axes at +4/+4, or 3 at +2/+2/+2. When raging, you're at +6/+6 or +4/+4/+4! Pick up Weapon Focus as soon as you can to get the penalties even lower.
jaelis 03-21-08, 10:29 AM	Human Barbarian 1/Fighter 2. Do whatever you can to max your Str, but still have the Dex prereq for TWF. This is a Str fighter that is a thrower. Level 1, grab TWF and Power Attack. Level 2, pick up Brutal Throw. Level 3, get Rapid Shot. Don't forget Quickdraw, Point Blank Bhot and Precise Shot. :)
Fenrir_Greyback 03-21-08, 01:24 PM	Personally, I like Bastard Swords. I know that you need OTWF, but man, it becomes awesome. Similarly, rapiers another cool double wield. If you don't want OTWF, then I'm going to go with a flail and short sword.
Jovknee 03-21-08, 04:32 PM	The thing about using double weapons with the RAW is what you lose out of for the "off-hand" and how things work. Power Attack using a Double-Weapon and you get to add that damage to one end if used TWF style because "light" weapons can't benefit from PA. At the same time Weapon Finesse suddenly can apply to the "off-hand end" of a Double Weapon. When using two one-handed weapons with the OTWF feat you suffer the same TWF penalties but at least things are consistent. Most of what I'd like to see is Double Weapons get the better TWF "penalties" but left as a two-hander or at least two one-handers for everything else. You already spend a feat to get most double weapons so they should get something. I think that with a double weapon you only occur the penalties to your attack rolls. The weapon itself is not a light weapon so PA should work on all attacks. Pg #160 of PHB says that you can attack with both ends of a double weapon as though you were attacking with two weapons, and the penalties for your attack are as if you were using a light weapon in your off-hand. It doesn't say that the off-hand is a light weapon.
Firaeki 03-21-08, 05:04 PM	I think that with a double weapon you only occur the penalties to your attack rolls. The weapon itself is not a light weapon so PA should work on all attacks. Pg #160 of PHB says that you can attack with both ends of a double weapon as though you were attacking with two weapons, and the penalties for your attack are as if you were using a light weapon in your off-hand. It doesn't say that the off-hand is a light weapon. That's how I rule it. PA works and still get the full 1x Str bonus to damage, just its the benefit of being treated as light as far as TWF penalties go.
jaelis 03-21-08, 09:23 PM	I think that with a double weapon you only occur the penalties to your attack rolls. The weapon itself is not a light weapon so PA should work on all attacks. Pg #160 of PHB says that you can attack with both ends of a double weapon as though you were attacking with two weapons, and the penalties for your attack are as if you were using a light weapon in your off-hand. It doesn't say that the off-hand is a light weapon. The power attack feat itself says how it works: (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)
Adonis1x23 03-21-08, 10:10 PM	Someone posted a really awesome TWF Bastard Sword build, it was actually really awesome...I can't find it though...
Optimator 03-22-08, 06:54 AM	Someone posted a really awesome TWF Bastard Sword build, it was actually really awesome...I can't find it though... Honestly, it seems like a bastard sword TWF build is like setting feats on fire.
Wheldrake 03-22-08, 07:34 AM	Honestly, it seems like a bastard sword TWF build is like setting feats on fire. Indeed, I've always felt that the whole TWF chain uses far too many feats for very limited benefits. The penalties to attack and damage (1/2 STR for off hand) and to AC (no shield) are hard to justify compared to two-handed weapons or one-handed weapon and shield. TWF seems most useful when you get added damage (say from sneak attacks) but even then it seems hard to justify blowing so many feats on it. Then again, the primary role of feats is to make characters unique, with their own flavor and tactics. So whatever floats your boat. Cheers, --- Wheldrake
Spikes01k 03-22-08, 08:57 AM	Seeing as most of your damage you are going to be dealing is with your bonus damage, like sneak attack, it is best just to chose a pair of the same weapon that is a light weapon, and finessable. You really don't need to spend the feats on oversized off hand weapon, or some exotic weapon.
Xavon 03-22-08, 12:18 PM	Twin Light Shields, or Twin Heavy Shields, if willing to take OTWF...
ImperialGolem 03-22-08, 08:11 PM	I can't believe someone has mentioned this one yet. Dual wielding spiked chains. I can't remember the name now, but there is a class in the drow sourcebook that lets you do this (it was intended, however, to be used to dual wield a spiked chain and a hand crossbow).
MorandirNailo 03-24-08, 02:27 AM	If you're playing in Eberron and you're a Valenar Elf (or if your DM allows stuff from other settings), the Valenar Double Scimitar coupled with the Bladebearer of the Valenar feat and the Revenant Blade PrC (for which BotV is a pre-req) is hard to beat. At 5th level, you can TWF with the Double Scimitar as if each end were being used THF-style (so you get 1.5xStr to both ends, and double damage from PA). The three floating feats (drawn from a limited list, but still good feats) don't hurt either. If I could ever get someone else to run an Eberron game, I'd probably go with one of these. Mor
TheGeek 03-27-08, 11:59 AM	I can't believe someone has mentioned this one yet. Dual wielding spiked chains. I can't remember the name now, but there is a class in the drow sourcebook that lets you do this (it was intended, however, to be used to dual wield a spiked chain and a hand crossbow). Drow sourcebook as in Drow of the Underdark?
MrWildman 03-28-08, 08:38 AM	I just wanted to chime in here regarding the popular "Swash 3 Dip" and the alternate class ability from Complete Mage, Arcane Stunt. I have a player who just started an elven Swashbuckler and chose this option. It must be chosen at first level and replaces the second level Grace ability with a small list of spell-like abilities usable several times, depending on Intelligence (which many a 3rd level Swashbuckler will want to have bonuses in). One of the things I like is that the benefit is delayed a level. That somehow sounds cruel, doesn't it? I'm a naujghty DM! :P No, really though. This means that he's been looking at his strong points and weaknesses and debating whether Jump or Expeditious Retreat or something else will fit his personality best and, yes, optimize his character. But still...a Two-Weapon-Fighter could choose to suddenly Blur as a swift action several times a day. I just thought it was cool, I'm on my second coffee. Peace.