better alternative to a double weapon??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

better alternative to a double weapon??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Longarms
10-03-06, 10:48 AM I've read, and I think I understand, is that one of the main advantages to a double weapon is that you are always holding a two-handed weapon. Thus, if you only have a standard action you can get all the two-handed weapon bonuses for the purpose of disarm, sunder, STR bonus, etc.

Well, in the official FAQ I read that a person can combine the use of armor spikes with a two-hander. Thus, you can fight with two weapons even when you are holding a twohanded sword or a spiked chain, etc. When using this style of two-weapon fighting, you get the main advantage of a double weapon. :P

Are there any other big advantages to double weapons? Like, applying weapon mastery to both ends. Anything else? Otherwise I would say that a combo of say greatsword+armor spikes pretty much owns all of the double weapon choices.
RobbyPants
10-03-06, 11:48 AM One of my favs takes 3 feats:

EXP(Bastard sword)
TWF
Oversized TWF

This gives you 1d10 damage with each of your attacks (better than the 1d8 for the double weapon), and keeps them both the same weapon, so feats like Weapon Focus will work for each hand.
Longarms
10-03-06, 12:10 PM Okay, two bastard swords really isn't a double weapon. I was wondering if there was an advantage to double weapons over a two-handed sword + armor spikes that I overlooked.

Mike

PS - The combo you describe takes three feats and only averages 11 (2d10) damage per turn, plus 1.5x (1+.5) STR bonus assuming both swords hit.

The combo I describe takes no feats and averages 10.5 (3d6) damage per turn, plus 2.0X (1.5 + 0.5) STR bonus assuming the two-handed sword and the armor spikes hit. Plus, the combo I describe gives better disarm and sunder bonuses and improves defense to those attacks.
Longarms
10-03-06, 12:12 PM for some reason my edit caused a double post
tarkin
10-03-06, 12:24 PM Reasons to take a Double weapon over armor spikes + THW.

1) Feat/ability combination. I get Weapon Focus Quarterstaff and have the feat for BOTH my 2 handed attacks, not just one. Same for Greater Weapon Focus, Specialization, etc. etc.

2) You want a weapon that is better than spikes for your off hand. If your off hand weapon sucks, it makes no sense to use it. It pretty much has to approach the damage of your main hand to make it worth while. For example, if you are tripping god, you want a weapon that you can trip with.

3) Prestige class abilities etc.

4) Armor Spikes are EXTRA smelly cheese. These things let you hit someone that is as far away as 5ft from you? Just exactly how BIG are these spikes? At least shield spikes are at the end of your arm, not on your shoulder. Usually I house rule that Armor Spikes need to be of Large size before they can attack someone 5ft away. Otherwise, they have 0 reach and can only be used in a grapple.
Longarms
10-03-06, 12:30 PM Thanks Tarkin. I ecpsecially like reason 4.

Actually, due to reason 4, I have considering offering an alternative to armor spikes that seems slightly less extra smelling cheese. I have considered letting the players have a spiked/sturdy boot, which they can make armed attacks with. Boot has the same stats as the spiked guantlet.
RobbyPants
10-03-06, 01:46 PM Okay, two bastard swords really isn't a double weapon. I was wondering if there was an advantage to double weapons over a two-handed sword + armor spikes that I overlooked.
Oops. I misread your intent. I thought you were looking for an alternative to a double weapon. Well, it looks like tarkin has you covered.
Baron Rod
10-03-06, 01:48 PM 4) Armor Spikes are EXTRA smelly cheese. These things let you hit someone that is as far away as 5ft from you? Just exactly how BIG are these spikes? At least shield spikes are at the end of your arm, not on your shoulder. Usually I house rule that Armor Spikes need to be of Large size before they can attack someone 5ft away. Otherwise, they have 0 reach and can only be used in a grapple.
When you attack someone with your fist (with or without Imp. Unarmed Strike) you are hitting at someone as far away as 5ft from you. What is the Difference?

Baron Rod
Ira_Dei
10-03-06, 01:55 PM The combo I describe takes no feats and averages 10.5 (3d6) damage per turn, plus 2.0X (1.5 + 0.5) STR bonus assuming the two-handed sword and the armor spikes hit. Plus, the combo I describe gives better disarm and sunder bonuses and improves defense to those attacks.

Actually, this combo needs the twf tree to work properly. Greatsword (and I'm assuming Power Attack) doesn't leave a whole lot of room for a high Dex (Min Dex 15 or Ranger 2).

But for real cheese - combine above with improved buckler for a two handed weapon, off hand attack, and shield bonus.
Longarms
10-03-06, 02:53 PM "When you attack someone with your fist (with or without Imp. Unarmed Strike) you are hitting at someone as far away as 5ft from you. What is the Difference?

Baron Rod"

Hitting with a fist requires unused hand, I think. Kicking is an offhand attack that does not require an unused hand.

In other words, I think you can kick, but not punch, in the same turn you swing a greatsword.
Eikre
10-03-06, 09:19 PM When you attack someone with your fist (with or without Imp. Unarmed Strike) you are hitting at someone as far away as 5ft from you. What is the Difference?

Your hand is at the end of your arm, which, on most humans, is a few feet long.

Spikes on your body, though, are on your body. To attack with them, you'd need to slam yourself into your opponant. It doesn't take much thinking to realize that in combat such a manuver is somewhat moronic.
Baron Rod
10-03-06, 10:11 PM Your hand is at the end of your arm, which, on most humans, is a few feet long.

Stand 5 ft away from somebody or even a wall. Can you reach that with your hand. I don't think so. In combat you move around in your 5ft space and so does your opponent. I don't have to enter my opponents square just reach it. I can just as easily slam my shoulder into the wall example above as I can punch it with my fist. And lastly just remember it is a game not real-life. Yes I like realism in my game also, but the game is based in fantasy. Go for it, have fun while you play.

Good gaming
Baron Rod
Eikre
10-04-06, 03:44 AM I can just as easily slam my shoulder into the wall example above as I can punch it with my fist.

This particular wall is moving around, and has a long peice of pointed metal with which it's trying to stab you.

Do what you want. I've expressed my opinions.
RobbyPants
10-04-06, 09:50 AM This particular wall is moving around, and has a long peice of pointed metal with which it's trying to stab you.
I'd have to agree.

I'm surprised that using spiked armor at a melee attack wouldn't provoke an AoO. This isn't that far away from grappling...
tarkin
10-04-06, 11:28 AM When you attack someone with your fist (with or without Imp. Unarmed Strike) you are hitting at someone as far away as 5ft from you. What is the Difference?

Baron Rod

The length of your arm.

If you are going to stand there and tell me you are wearing spikes on your armor that are as LONG AS YOUR ARM, then I might accept it.

I would also ask:

1) How do you fit through doors?
2) How do you swing your arms weapon - there are these 3 ft long spikes in the way.

And a lot of other questions about normal physics.
RobbyPants
10-04-06, 12:17 PM And a lot of other questions about normal physics.
Yeah... I agree.

I know this is a fantasy game and all, but there's a reason that historically, armies weren't all equipped with spiked armor. Aside from places like the gladitorial arena, or just plain fluff, armor spikes tend to cause more problems then they solve.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
10-04-06, 12:27 PM Stand 5 ft away from somebody or even a wall. Can you reach that with your hand.
Yes. Easily. Pivot on one foot, and lean foward.
Longarms
10-04-06, 01:54 PM The official FAQ says that you can have armor spikes on your knee or boot. So, the FAQ describes the use of armor spikes with a twohander as kneeing or kicking your opponent with an armor spike.

Besides, if the use of armor spikes were to draw an AoO, then the use of shield spikes probably should too. They just don't seem that much different to me. I mean, you can have an armor spike on a heavily armored shoulder and then just drop your heavily armored shoulder into your opponnent, how different is that than dropping your shoulder to bash with a shield.

Ohh, and in response to the historical perspective on armor spikes, did armies ever use shield spikes?
RobbyPants
10-04-06, 03:28 PM Ohh, and in response to the historical perspective on armor spikes, did armies ever use shield spikes?
Never said they did... in fact, I never said anything about shield spikes on this thread. :nonono:
Longarms
10-04-06, 04:05 PM "Never said they did... in fact, I never said anything about shield spikes on this thread."

It wasn't meant to be a rehetorical question, but your answer seems to indicate that spiked shields weren't used either.
MagnaSecuris
10-04-06, 05:59 PM People in armies tended to not like the guy standing behind them to be covered in spikey bits. Armor spikes were very rare. So rare that when the do occur in story and legend, it's a big deal. A knight had to be told by the local wise-man to weld spearpoints to his armor so the giant snake wouldn't crush him. It wasn't something people thought about doing.
RobbyPants
10-05-06, 10:20 AM "Never said they did... in fact, I never said anything about shield spikes on this thread."

It wasn't meant to be a rehetorical question, but your answer seems to indicate that spiked shields weren't used either.

Well, I don't know how often spiked shields were used in the past (and I doubt it was that often), but they would seem a more viable option in combat than spiked armor. I'm not saying armor spikes are useless... just that they'd see less practical use in combat, as you'd have to be very close to your opponent.

I think they make better fluff than tactical options. They certainly look cool. And in a fantasy campaign, I have no problem with them. I guess my only complaint is trying to think of the logistics of going from the range you'd need to swing a greatsword (a 4 -5 foot blade easy, at the end of your arms) to using armor spikes on the same opponent in the same round. You'd have to close a 7 to 8 foot gap, and then re-open it to use the sword next round.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Longarms 10-03-06, 10:48 AM	I've read, and I think I understand, is that one of the main advantages to a double weapon is that you are always holding a two-handed weapon. Thus, if you only have a standard action you can get all the two-handed weapon bonuses for the purpose of disarm, sunder, STR bonus, etc. Well, in the official FAQ I read that a person can combine the use of armor spikes with a two-hander. Thus, you can fight with two weapons even when you are holding a twohanded sword or a spiked chain, etc. When using this style of two-weapon fighting, you get the main advantage of a double weapon. :P Are there any other big advantages to double weapons? Like, applying weapon mastery to both ends. Anything else? Otherwise I would say that a combo of say greatsword+armor spikes pretty much owns all of the double weapon choices.
RobbyPants 10-03-06, 11:48 AM	One of my favs takes 3 feats: EXP(Bastard sword) TWF Oversized TWF This gives you 1d10 damage with each of your attacks (better than the 1d8 for the double weapon), and keeps them both the same weapon, so feats like Weapon Focus will work for each hand.
Longarms 10-03-06, 12:10 PM	Okay, two bastard swords really isn't a double weapon. I was wondering if there was an advantage to double weapons over a two-handed sword + armor spikes that I overlooked. Mike PS - The combo you describe takes three feats and only averages 11 (2d10) damage per turn, plus 1.5x (1+.5) STR bonus assuming both swords hit. The combo I describe takes no feats and averages 10.5 (3d6) damage per turn, plus 2.0X (1.5 + 0.5) STR bonus assuming the two-handed sword and the armor spikes hit. Plus, the combo I describe gives better disarm and sunder bonuses and improves defense to those attacks.
Longarms 10-03-06, 12:12 PM	for some reason my edit caused a double post
tarkin 10-03-06, 12:24 PM	Reasons to take a Double weapon over armor spikes + THW. 1) Feat/ability combination. I get Weapon Focus Quarterstaff and have the feat for BOTH my 2 handed attacks, not just one. Same for Greater Weapon Focus, Specialization, etc. etc. 2) You want a weapon that is better than spikes for your off hand. If your off hand weapon sucks, it makes no sense to use it. It pretty much has to approach the damage of your main hand to make it worth while. For example, if you are tripping god, you want a weapon that you can trip with. 3) Prestige class abilities etc. 4) Armor Spikes are EXTRA smelly cheese. These things let you hit someone that is as far away as 5ft from you? Just exactly how BIG are these spikes? At least shield spikes are at the end of your arm, not on your shoulder. Usually I house rule that Armor Spikes need to be of Large size before they can attack someone 5ft away. Otherwise, they have 0 reach and can only be used in a grapple.
Longarms 10-03-06, 12:30 PM	Thanks Tarkin. I ecpsecially like reason 4. Actually, due to reason 4, I have considering offering an alternative to armor spikes that seems slightly less extra smelling cheese. I have considered letting the players have a spiked/sturdy boot, which they can make armed attacks with. Boot has the same stats as the spiked guantlet.
RobbyPants 10-03-06, 01:46 PM	Okay, two bastard swords really isn't a double weapon. I was wondering if there was an advantage to double weapons over a two-handed sword + armor spikes that I overlooked. Oops. I misread your intent. I thought you were looking for an alternative to a double weapon. Well, it looks like tarkin has you covered.
Baron Rod 10-03-06, 01:48 PM	4) Armor Spikes are EXTRA smelly cheese. These things let you hit someone that is as far away as 5ft from you? Just exactly how BIG are these spikes? At least shield spikes are at the end of your arm, not on your shoulder. Usually I house rule that Armor Spikes need to be of Large size before they can attack someone 5ft away. Otherwise, they have 0 reach and can only be used in a grapple. When you attack someone with your fist (with or without Imp. Unarmed Strike) you are hitting at someone as far away as 5ft from you. What is the Difference? Baron Rod
Ira_Dei 10-03-06, 01:55 PM	The combo I describe takes no feats and averages 10.5 (3d6) damage per turn, plus 2.0X (1.5 + 0.5) STR bonus assuming the two-handed sword and the armor spikes hit. Plus, the combo I describe gives better disarm and sunder bonuses and improves defense to those attacks. Actually, this combo needs the twf tree to work properly. Greatsword (and I'm assuming Power Attack) doesn't leave a whole lot of room for a high Dex (Min Dex 15 or Ranger 2). But for real cheese - combine above with improved buckler for a two handed weapon, off hand attack, and shield bonus.
Longarms 10-03-06, 02:53 PM	"When you attack someone with your fist (with or without Imp. Unarmed Strike) you are hitting at someone as far away as 5ft from you. What is the Difference? Baron Rod" Hitting with a fist requires unused hand, I think. Kicking is an offhand attack that does not require an unused hand. In other words, I think you can kick, but not punch, in the same turn you swing a greatsword.
Eikre 10-03-06, 09:19 PM	When you attack someone with your fist (with or without Imp. Unarmed Strike) you are hitting at someone as far away as 5ft from you. What is the Difference? Your hand is at the end of your arm, which, on most humans, is a few feet long. Spikes on your body, though, are on your body. To attack with them, you'd need to slam yourself into your opponant. It doesn't take much thinking to realize that in combat such a manuver is somewhat moronic.
Baron Rod 10-03-06, 10:11 PM	Your hand is at the end of your arm, which, on most humans, is a few feet long. Stand 5 ft away from somebody or even a wall. Can you reach that with your hand. I don't think so. In combat you move around in your 5ft space and so does your opponent. I don't have to enter my opponents square just reach it. I can just as easily slam my shoulder into the wall example above as I can punch it with my fist. And lastly just remember it is a game not real-life. Yes I like realism in my game also, but the game is based in fantasy. Go for it, have fun while you play. Good gaming Baron Rod
Eikre 10-04-06, 03:44 AM	I can just as easily slam my shoulder into the wall example above as I can punch it with my fist. This particular wall is moving around, and has a long peice of pointed metal with which it's trying to stab you. Do what you want. I've expressed my opinions.
RobbyPants 10-04-06, 09:50 AM	This particular wall is moving around, and has a long peice of pointed metal with which it's trying to stab you. I'd have to agree. I'm surprised that using spiked armor at a melee attack wouldn't provoke an AoO. This isn't that far away from grappling...
tarkin 10-04-06, 11:28 AM	When you attack someone with your fist (with or without Imp. Unarmed Strike) you are hitting at someone as far away as 5ft from you. What is the Difference? Baron Rod The length of your arm. If you are going to stand there and tell me you are wearing spikes on your armor that are as LONG AS YOUR ARM, then I might accept it. I would also ask: 1) How do you fit through doors? 2) How do you swing your arms weapon - there are these 3 ft long spikes in the way. And a lot of other questions about normal physics.
RobbyPants 10-04-06, 12:17 PM	And a lot of other questions about normal physics. Yeah... I agree. I know this is a fantasy game and all, but there's a reason that historically, armies weren't all equipped with spiked armor. Aside from places like the gladitorial arena, or just plain fluff, armor spikes tend to cause more problems then they solve.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-04-06, 12:27 PM	Stand 5 ft away from somebody or even a wall. Can you reach that with your hand. Yes. Easily. Pivot on one foot, and lean foward.
Longarms 10-04-06, 01:54 PM	The official FAQ says that you can have armor spikes on your knee or boot. So, the FAQ describes the use of armor spikes with a twohander as kneeing or kicking your opponent with an armor spike. Besides, if the use of armor spikes were to draw an AoO, then the use of shield spikes probably should too. They just don't seem that much different to me. I mean, you can have an armor spike on a heavily armored shoulder and then just drop your heavily armored shoulder into your opponnent, how different is that than dropping your shoulder to bash with a shield. Ohh, and in response to the historical perspective on armor spikes, did armies ever use shield spikes?
RobbyPants 10-04-06, 03:28 PM	Ohh, and in response to the historical perspective on armor spikes, did armies ever use shield spikes? Never said they did... in fact, I never said anything about shield spikes on this thread. :nonono:
Longarms 10-04-06, 04:05 PM	"Never said they did... in fact, I never said anything about shield spikes on this thread." It wasn't meant to be a rehetorical question, but your answer seems to indicate that spiked shields weren't used either.
MagnaSecuris 10-04-06, 05:59 PM	People in armies tended to not like the guy standing behind them to be covered in spikey bits. Armor spikes were very rare. So rare that when the do occur in story and legend, it's a big deal. A knight had to be told by the local wise-man to weld spearpoints to his armor so the giant snake wouldn't crush him. It wasn't something people thought about doing.
RobbyPants 10-05-06, 10:20 AM	"Never said they did... in fact, I never said anything about shield spikes on this thread." It wasn't meant to be a rehetorical question, but your answer seems to indicate that spiked shields weren't used either. Well, I don't know how often spiked shields were used in the past (and I doubt it was that often), but they would seem a more viable option in combat than spiked armor. I'm not saying armor spikes are useless... just that they'd see less practical use in combat, as you'd have to be very close to your opponent. I think they make better fluff than tactical options. They certainly look cool. And in a fantasy campaign, I have no problem with them. I guess my only complaint is trying to think of the logistics of going from the range you'd need to swing a greatsword (a 4 -5 foot blade easy, at the end of your arms) to using armor spikes on the same opponent in the same round. You'd have to close a 7 to 8 foot gap, and then re-open it to use the sword next round.