Better critical Bow/Crossbow? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Better critical Bow/Crossbow? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
satanicway
04-11-07, 07:07 AM I'm looking for a bow or crossbow with better critical threat range.
Something like 19-20x2 or 18-20x2, but that still allow me to full attack. (It need to be exotic, cause i plan to use it with exotic weapon master =/ )

Any idea?

All WoTC books are allowed.

Thanks.

(Since im already posting this, let me ask something for a friend: Whats the best critical threat melee weapon? I mean, the one that have the most chanse to critic. Im near sure the falchion 18-20x2 is the best, any better them this?) (can be dagger or 2h anything)
Davro
04-11-07, 07:49 AM Repeating (Heavy) Crossbow is 19-20/X2 and exotic. 5 shots, short of magic, should let a ranged fighter with rapid shot get a full attack off.
satanicway
04-11-07, 08:02 AM 5 shots = 1 full attack, and you loose hast attack.

And them you need a full round to recharge it.

Its like loosing 1/2+1 attacks/round.
From 12 each 2 rounds to 5 each 2 rounds.

Still its the only viable option till now. =/
I will stick with this if i cant find any better.

Any other idea?
Tamerlane
04-11-07, 08:03 AM I'm looking for a bow or crossbow with better critical threat range.
Something like 19-20x2 or 18-20x2, but that still allow me to full attack. (It need to be exotic, cause i plan to use it with exotic weapon master =/ )

Any idea?

All WoTC books are allowed.

Thanks.

(Since im already posting this, let me ask something for a friend: Whats the best critical threat melee weapon? I mean, the one that have the most chanse to critic. Im near sure the falchion 18-20x2 is the best, any better them this?) (can be dagger or 2h anything)

What you want is the Great Crossbow from Races of Stone. 18-20 CTR.

Edit: Although, you said you still want to make a full attack, so I don't know why you even included crossbows in this....

Edit #2: Aquatic Crossbow (Stormwrack) + Rapid Reload (19-20 CTR)
Davro
04-11-07, 08:04 AM That's a nice toy, but a full attack's not going to happen barring some act of DM
satanicway
04-11-07, 08:15 AM Just use Math:

A fighter with hast can do 6 attacks.

So thats 6 x Critical Chanse%

Its 19-20 (from keen greatbow) = 6x10%=60% /round

With a great crossbow its 15-20

But its only 1 attack/round so = 30% /round
And you lost alot of "normal attacks" that would not crit but still do some damage.

So by math you need to full attack to be as efficient as a normal bow.

Rapid Recharge feat can deal with crossbows, but they need to be exotic to exotic weapon master, so no simple Light Crossbow.
The Repetition one is weaker cause you cant use Rapid Recharge to full attack with it every round, instead you save the feat to full attack in each 2 rounds.

Edit:
Humm, aquatic Crossbow may be the best option, i will look in the book. Thanks.
If anyone have any other idea just post.

Thanks.
Tamerlane
04-11-07, 08:23 AM Just use Math:

Its 19-20 (from keen greatbow) = 6x10%=60% /round

Actually, iteratively the chance of getting 6 non-criticals in a row is 90%^6 = .9*.9*.9*.9*.9*.9, or 53%, meaning you have a 47% remaining chance to have struck a critical, not 60%.
1hitparry
04-11-07, 11:25 AM There an enchantment in the Magic Item Compendium that allows you to reload light and heavy cross bows as a free action. I think it acts like the Rapid Reload feat. If you plan to use a cross bow, I'd say it's worth the +1, assuming you have iterative attacks.
satanicway
04-11-07, 11:31 AM Tamerlane:

Thats right.

Im just too lazy in the morning to make any real math.

But your math isnt that perfect too:

The bonus damage delt by critics in 2 rounds by having a 19-20x2 weapon doing 12 attacks (2 rounds), is alot more them 72%. (thats the same calc you did, but for 2 rounds)

The bonus damage delt is exactly:
For 19-20x2 -> 10%*Number of Attacks*100% (more if the crit is x3 or better)
For 17-20x2 -> 20%*Number of Attacks*100% (same)

I sayd number of criticals, but i was meaning the damage result.

10%*12*100%= 120% of a hit of bonus damage to the full attack (2 rounds).

20%*1*100%= 20% of a hit of bonus damage to the full attack (2 rounds).

So with a full attacking longbow i do the damage of 12 attacks plus 120% of a HIT.
With the great crossbow its just 20% of a HIT.

This not counting that more attacks with criticals can make you hit more.
So in conclusion, a 19-20x3 doing 2 full attacks is BY FAR better them a 15-20x2 doing 1 attack each 2 rounds.
Frugal
04-11-07, 01:16 PM satanicway, your math on probabilities is way off. You need to look at the total number of possible outcomes and then the total number of outcomes you're interested in (a threat of crit). We're rolling a d20 so there's 20 possiblities, the weapon has a crit range of 19-20, so only 2 results give a threat of crit. So now let's take 2 attacks, 400 possible combinations of die rolls (20x20). Now if we're just interested in the number of possibilities that will result in a single crit then we take the 2 possiblities on the 1st roll times the number of possibilities on the 2nd roll (you threatened on the 1st roll so any result on the 2nd roll will still result in 1 threat), so that's 40 possibilities. Now, there are 18 possibilities left on the 1st roll that don't threaten, times the number of rolls on the 2nd roll that can threaten (2), or 36 possibilities. That leaves you with 76 possibilities out of 400, or 19%. Now sure, that's pretty close to the 20% you're talking about but as you add more die rolls that does increase.

And then there's all the, much more complicated, math on actually confirming that crit, which will depend on which iterative attack you threaten on.
Aggrenox
04-11-07, 01:53 PM You guys are using funny math.

with a 19-20 Crit threat, you have a flat 10% crit chance. No matter how many times you roll.

And you can't calculate confirmed criticals. Thats a situational veriable.

Full attack.
First attack. 10% crit chance.
Second attack. 10% crit chance.
Third attack. 10% crit chance.
Fouth attack. 10% crit chance.

40%/4=10%.
Aggrenox
04-11-07, 01:54 PM Oh, bonus damage! I missed a word. Sorry!
Frugal
04-11-07, 02:18 PM You guys are using funny math.

with a 19-20 Crit threat, you have a flat 10% crit chance. No matter how many times you roll.

And you can't calculate confirmed criticals. Thats a situational veriable.

Full attack.
First attack. 10% crit chance.
Second attack. 10% crit chance.
Third attack. 10% crit chance.
Fouth attack. 10% crit chance.

40%/4=10%.

No, that's some funny math you're using. You have a flat 10% chance with a single roll, yes. However, we're talking about what your chances of scoring at least 1 threat of a crit is during the full attack. I already explained in my earlier post what the way to work that out is; you figure out the total number of possible combinations and then figure out the number of combinations that have a crit in them and divide.
satanicway
04-11-07, 02:25 PM satanicway, your math on probabilities is way off. You need to look at the total number of possible outcomes and then the total number of outcomes you're interested in (a threat of crit). We're rolling a d20 so there's 20 possiblities, the weapon has a crit range of 19-20, so only 2 results give a threat of crit. So now let's take 2 attacks, 400 possible combinations of die rolls (20x20). Now if we're just interested in the number of possibilities that will result in a single crit then we take the 2 possiblities on the 1st roll times the number of possibilities on the 2nd roll (you threatened on the 1st roll so any result on the 2nd roll will still result in 1 threat), so that's 40 possibilities. Now, there are 18 possibilities left on the 1st roll that don't threaten, times the number of rolls on the 2nd roll that can threaten (2), or 36 possibilities. That leaves you with 76 possibilities out of 400, or 19%. Now sure, that's pretty close to the 20% you're talking about but as you add more die rolls that does increase.

And then there's all the, much more complicated, math on actually confirming that crit, which will depend on which iterative attack you threaten on.

As Aggrenox stated, i was talking about bonus damage compared to a normal full attack damage for that build, so my math was correct. (Not perfect, it didnt count confirmation on critics, cause its too situational and would take ALOT of time.)
Frugal
04-11-07, 02:44 PM As Aggrenox stated, i was talking about bonus damage compared to a normal full attack damage for that build, so my math was correct. (Not perfect, it didnt count confirmation on critics, cause its too situational and would take ALOT of time.)

Yes, but you're still incorrectly saying that 10% chance of crit * 6 attacks = 60% chance of a crit.
Aggrenox
04-11-07, 02:49 PM No, that's some funny math you're using. You have a flat 10% chance with a single roll, yes. However, we're talking about what your chances of scoring at least 1 threat of a crit is during the full attack. I already explained in my earlier post what the way to work that out is; you figure out the total number of possible combinations and then figure out the number of combinations that have a crit in them and divide.

With at crit range of 19-20, no matter what, you will always have a 10% chance of thretening a critical hit. No matter how many times you roll. If you attack 100 times, you will, on average crit threat 10 of those times.

Roll(100d20)+0:
5,9,17,13,16,7,5,4,18,9,8,12,20,9,13,5,6 ,13,10,1,1,8,
18,15,6,13,19,18,18,4,5,9,5,18,5,5,10,7, 20,15,9,8,17,
7,17,6,20,12,5,13,8,12,15,2,15,6,12,16,1 8,11,4,12,7,
8,18,1,5,8,8,9,5,9,4,7,18,10,2,8,9,14,20 ,17,10,19,6,
10,7,1,12,14,18,5,9,9,10,10,9,6,3,5,+0
Total:1014
6 Threats.

Roll(100d20)+0:
1,18,11,3,14,18,16,14,15,4,20,19,14,11,2 ,13,4,14,19,
18,12,10,4,2,12,3,18,6,14,1,1,8,6,6,6,15 ,15,5,2,15,1,
16,2,12,13,20,11,2,19,17,6,16,7,9,10,4,1 9,13,17,20,1
1,2,13,2,15,10,13,4,10,9,18,1,13,20,16,1 4,1,4,7,14,20,
13,13,18,3,10,19,3,10,17,2,15,13,9,7,15, 6,20,2,7,+0
Total:1062
11 Threats.

Roll(100d20)+0:
15,19,11,14,7,16,17,16,12,18,11,9,14,2,1 5,20,16,15,9,14,
3,3,16,15,14,6,18,20,11,12,17,17,1,4,2,7 ,18,17,19,17,14,
20,5,15,7,15,4,18,8,4,5,20,7,6,7,5,12,18 ,8,17,11,10,10,
11,6,10,7,6,14,16,8,20,5,11,9,11,7,11,5, 20,9,9,1,6,19,8,
14,3,10,12,2,10,15,16,1,15,13,7,6,7,+0
Total:1027
9 Threats.

Roll(100d20)+0:
6,9,8,20,18,18,3,6,9,8,8,19,16,15,8,14,1 3,6,11,4,20,11,
15,4,6,1,14,16,5,17,1,11,4,19,12,11,13,1 8,10,3,9,18,9,
14,20,1,19,19,19,17,17,15,3,5,9,16,17,2, 8,16,1,11,1,3,
2,9,16,3,19,9,2,13,20,7,4,18,13,19,7,4,1 8,7,2,7,7,17,14,
5,17,1,15,20,1,9,6,10,3,11,9,18,+0
Total:1061
12 Threats.

6+11+9+12=38/4=9.5 (damn close to 10%)
Frugal
04-11-07, 03:03 PM With at crit range of 19-20, no matter what, you will always have a 10% chance of thretening a critical hit. No matter how many times you roll. If you attack 100 times, you will, on average crit threat 10 of those times.

snip

6+11+9+12=38/4=9.5 (damn close to 10%)

Yes, but not 10%. Yes, over time you will get close to 10% but you'll never get exactly. Otherwise you'd always see heads come up within 2 coin flips (50% * 2 chances) or a 6 come up on a d6 after 6 rolls (1 in 6 chance, 6 chances) and so on. Probability doesn't work that way because each roll is a unique instance. Now over time those unique instances will work out to pretty close to the actual odds, and the odds of not rolling a 19 or 20 becoming remarkably small. But that doesn't mean that you simply take the odds of rolling it times the number of times you rolled. Notice how you had that 1 outcome with only 6 threats? That's a pretty low number of threats compared to the expected outcome of 10, that's my point, and even over 400 rolls you still only ended up with 38 threats, not the expected 40.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
satanicway 04-11-07, 07:07 AM	I'm looking for a bow or crossbow with better critical threat range. Something like 19-20x2 or 18-20x2, but that still allow me to full attack. (It need to be exotic, cause i plan to use it with exotic weapon master =/ ) Any idea? All WoTC books are allowed. Thanks. (Since im already posting this, let me ask something for a friend: Whats the best critical threat melee weapon? I mean, the one that have the most chanse to critic. Im near sure the falchion 18-20x2 is the best, any better them this?) (can be dagger or 2h anything)
Davro 04-11-07, 07:49 AM	Repeating (Heavy) Crossbow is 19-20/X2 and exotic. 5 shots, short of magic, should let a ranged fighter with rapid shot get a full attack off.
satanicway 04-11-07, 08:02 AM	5 shots = 1 full attack, and you loose hast attack. And them you need a full round to recharge it. Its like loosing 1/2+1 attacks/round. From 12 each 2 rounds to 5 each 2 rounds. Still its the only viable option till now. =/ I will stick with this if i cant find any better. Any other idea?
Tamerlane 04-11-07, 08:03 AM	I'm looking for a bow or crossbow with better critical threat range. Something like 19-20x2 or 18-20x2, but that still allow me to full attack. (It need to be exotic, cause i plan to use it with exotic weapon master =/ ) Any idea? All WoTC books are allowed. Thanks. (Since im already posting this, let me ask something for a friend: Whats the best critical threat melee weapon? I mean, the one that have the most chanse to critic. Im near sure the falchion 18-20x2 is the best, any better them this?) (can be dagger or 2h anything) What you want is the Great Crossbow from Races of Stone. 18-20 CTR. Edit: Although, you said you still want to make a full attack, so I don't know why you even included crossbows in this.... Edit #2: Aquatic Crossbow (Stormwrack) + Rapid Reload (19-20 CTR)
Davro 04-11-07, 08:04 AM	That's a nice toy, but a full attack's not going to happen barring some act of DM
satanicway 04-11-07, 08:15 AM	Just use Math: A fighter with hast can do 6 attacks. So thats 6 x Critical Chanse% Its 19-20 (from keen greatbow) = 6x10%=60% /round With a great crossbow its 15-20 But its only 1 attack/round so = 30% /round And you lost alot of "normal attacks" that would not crit but still do some damage. So by math you need to full attack to be as efficient as a normal bow. Rapid Recharge feat can deal with crossbows, but they need to be exotic to exotic weapon master, so no simple Light Crossbow. The Repetition one is weaker cause you cant use Rapid Recharge to full attack with it every round, instead you save the feat to full attack in each 2 rounds. Edit: Humm, aquatic Crossbow may be the best option, i will look in the book. Thanks. If anyone have any other idea just post. Thanks.
Tamerlane 04-11-07, 08:23 AM	Just use Math: Its 19-20 (from keen greatbow) = 6x10%=60% /round Actually, iteratively the chance of getting 6 non-criticals in a row is 90%^6 = .9.9.9.9.9*.9, or 53%, meaning you have a 47% remaining chance to have struck a critical, not 60%.
1hitparry 04-11-07, 11:25 AM	There an enchantment in the Magic Item Compendium that allows you to reload light and heavy cross bows as a free action. I think it acts like the Rapid Reload feat. If you plan to use a cross bow, I'd say it's worth the +1, assuming you have iterative attacks.
satanicway 04-11-07, 11:31 AM	Tamerlane: Thats right. Im just too lazy in the morning to make any real math. But your math isnt that perfect too: The bonus damage delt by critics in 2 rounds by having a 19-20x2 weapon doing 12 attacks (2 rounds), is alot more them 72%. (thats the same calc you did, but for 2 rounds) The bonus damage delt is exactly: For 19-20x2 -> 10%Number of Attacks100% (more if the crit is x3 or better) For 17-20x2 -> 20%Number of Attacks100% (same) I sayd number of criticals, but i was meaning the damage result. 10%12100%= 120% of a hit of bonus damage to the full attack (2 rounds). 20%1100%= 20% of a hit of bonus damage to the full attack (2 rounds). So with a full attacking longbow i do the damage of 12 attacks plus 120% of a HIT. With the great crossbow its just 20% of a HIT. This not counting that more attacks with criticals can make you hit more. So in conclusion, a 19-20x3 doing 2 full attacks is BY FAR better them a 15-20x2 doing 1 attack each 2 rounds.
Frugal 04-11-07, 01:16 PM	satanicway, your math on probabilities is way off. You need to look at the total number of possible outcomes and then the total number of outcomes you're interested in (a threat of crit). We're rolling a d20 so there's 20 possiblities, the weapon has a crit range of 19-20, so only 2 results give a threat of crit. So now let's take 2 attacks, 400 possible combinations of die rolls (20x20). Now if we're just interested in the number of possibilities that will result in a single crit then we take the 2 possiblities on the 1st roll times the number of possibilities on the 2nd roll (you threatened on the 1st roll so any result on the 2nd roll will still result in 1 threat), so that's 40 possibilities. Now, there are 18 possibilities left on the 1st roll that don't threaten, times the number of rolls on the 2nd roll that can threaten (2), or 36 possibilities. That leaves you with 76 possibilities out of 400, or 19%. Now sure, that's pretty close to the 20% you're talking about but as you add more die rolls that does increase. And then there's all the, much more complicated, math on actually confirming that crit, which will depend on which iterative attack you threaten on.
Aggrenox 04-11-07, 01:53 PM	You guys are using funny math. with a 19-20 Crit threat, you have a flat 10% crit chance. No matter how many times you roll. And you can't calculate confirmed criticals. Thats a situational veriable. Full attack. First attack. 10% crit chance. Second attack. 10% crit chance. Third attack. 10% crit chance. Fouth attack. 10% crit chance. 40%/4=10%.
Aggrenox 04-11-07, 01:54 PM	Oh, bonus damage! I missed a word. Sorry!
Frugal 04-11-07, 02:18 PM	You guys are using funny math. with a 19-20 Crit threat, you have a flat 10% crit chance. No matter how many times you roll. And you can't calculate confirmed criticals. Thats a situational veriable. Full attack. First attack. 10% crit chance. Second attack. 10% crit chance. Third attack. 10% crit chance. Fouth attack. 10% crit chance. 40%/4=10%. No, that's some funny math you're using. You have a flat 10% chance with a single roll, yes. However, we're talking about what your chances of scoring at least 1 threat of a crit is during the full attack. I already explained in my earlier post what the way to work that out is; you figure out the total number of possible combinations and then figure out the number of combinations that have a crit in them and divide.
satanicway 04-11-07, 02:25 PM	satanicway, your math on probabilities is way off. You need to look at the total number of possible outcomes and then the total number of outcomes you're interested in (a threat of crit). We're rolling a d20 so there's 20 possiblities, the weapon has a crit range of 19-20, so only 2 results give a threat of crit. So now let's take 2 attacks, 400 possible combinations of die rolls (20x20). Now if we're just interested in the number of possibilities that will result in a single crit then we take the 2 possiblities on the 1st roll times the number of possibilities on the 2nd roll (you threatened on the 1st roll so any result on the 2nd roll will still result in 1 threat), so that's 40 possibilities. Now, there are 18 possibilities left on the 1st roll that don't threaten, times the number of rolls on the 2nd roll that can threaten (2), or 36 possibilities. That leaves you with 76 possibilities out of 400, or 19%. Now sure, that's pretty close to the 20% you're talking about but as you add more die rolls that does increase. And then there's all the, much more complicated, math on actually confirming that crit, which will depend on which iterative attack you threaten on. As Aggrenox stated, i was talking about bonus damage compared to a normal full attack damage for that build, so my math was correct. (Not perfect, it didnt count confirmation on critics, cause its too situational and would take ALOT of time.)
Frugal 04-11-07, 02:44 PM	As Aggrenox stated, i was talking about bonus damage compared to a normal full attack damage for that build, so my math was correct. (Not perfect, it didnt count confirmation on critics, cause its too situational and would take ALOT of time.) Yes, but you're still incorrectly saying that 10% chance of crit * 6 attacks = 60% chance of a crit.
Aggrenox 04-11-07, 02:49 PM	No, that's some funny math you're using. You have a flat 10% chance with a single roll, yes. However, we're talking about what your chances of scoring at least 1 threat of a crit is during the full attack. I already explained in my earlier post what the way to work that out is; you figure out the total number of possible combinations and then figure out the number of combinations that have a crit in them and divide. With at crit range of 19-20, no matter what, you will always have a 10% chance of thretening a critical hit. No matter how many times you roll. If you attack 100 times, you will, on average crit threat 10 of those times. Roll(100d20)+0: 5,9,17,13,16,7,5,4,18,9,8,12,20,9,13,5,6 ,13,10,1,1,8, 18,15,6,13,19,18,18,4,5,9,5,18,5,5,10,7, 20,15,9,8,17, 7,17,6,20,12,5,13,8,12,15,2,15,6,12,16,1 8,11,4,12,7, 8,18,1,5,8,8,9,5,9,4,7,18,10,2,8,9,14,20 ,17,10,19,6, 10,7,1,12,14,18,5,9,9,10,10,9,6,3,5,+0 Total:1014 6 Threats. Roll(100d20)+0: 1,18,11,3,14,18,16,14,15,4,20,19,14,11,2 ,13,4,14,19, 18,12,10,4,2,12,3,18,6,14,1,1,8,6,6,6,15 ,15,5,2,15,1, 16,2,12,13,20,11,2,19,17,6,16,7,9,10,4,1 9,13,17,20,1 1,2,13,2,15,10,13,4,10,9,18,1,13,20,16,1 4,1,4,7,14,20, 13,13,18,3,10,19,3,10,17,2,15,13,9,7,15, 6,20,2,7,+0 Total:1062 11 Threats. Roll(100d20)+0: 15,19,11,14,7,16,17,16,12,18,11,9,14,2,1 5,20,16,15,9,14, 3,3,16,15,14,6,18,20,11,12,17,17,1,4,2,7 ,18,17,19,17,14, 20,5,15,7,15,4,18,8,4,5,20,7,6,7,5,12,18 ,8,17,11,10,10, 11,6,10,7,6,14,16,8,20,5,11,9,11,7,11,5, 20,9,9,1,6,19,8, 14,3,10,12,2,10,15,16,1,15,13,7,6,7,+0 Total:1027 9 Threats. Roll(100d20)+0: 6,9,8,20,18,18,3,6,9,8,8,19,16,15,8,14,1 3,6,11,4,20,11, 15,4,6,1,14,16,5,17,1,11,4,19,12,11,13,1 8,10,3,9,18,9, 14,20,1,19,19,19,17,17,15,3,5,9,16,17,2, 8,16,1,11,1,3, 2,9,16,3,19,9,2,13,20,7,4,18,13,19,7,4,1 8,7,2,7,7,17,14, 5,17,1,15,20,1,9,6,10,3,11,9,18,+0 Total:1061 12 Threats. 6+11+9+12=38/4=9.5 (damn close to 10%)
Frugal 04-11-07, 03:03 PM	With at crit range of 19-20, no matter what, you will always have a 10% chance of thretening a critical hit. No matter how many times you roll. If you attack 100 times, you will, on average crit threat 10 of those times. snip 6+11+9+12=38/4=9.5 (damn close to 10%) Yes, but not 10%. Yes, over time you will get close to 10% but you'll never get exactly. Otherwise you'd always see heads come up within 2 coin flips (50% * 2 chances) or a 6 come up on a d6 after 6 rolls (1 in 6 chance, 6 chances) and so on. Probability doesn't work that way because each roll is a unique instance. Now over time those unique instances will work out to pretty close to the actual odds, and the odds of not rolling a 19 or 20 becoming remarkably small. But that doesn't mean that you simply take the odds of rolling it times the number of times you rolled. Notice how you had that 1 outcome with only 6 threats? That's a pretty low number of threats compared to the expected outcome of 10, that's my point, and even over 400 rolls you still only ended up with 38 threats, not the expected 40.