Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tuah Shinguru 08-09-05, 10:31 PM	Lets say I have a rogue, bard, or sorcerer at level 10 or something: What would be a good way to increace his fighting capabilities? (very much with multiclassing) I like the abilities that weaker charaters have, but I also like the ability to fight, though, when I try to make a character that is mildly good at fighting, I seem to fall flat on my face. Also, how would a better or more experienced fighter go about fighting in a battle?
Alteron 08-10-05, 12:38 AM	2 wp fighting rouge with short swords... works every time, as long as youve got someone else to flank your target with you.
CapnSwashbuckler 08-10-05, 05:22 AM	I'd say that: 1) 'Weaker', as you put them, character classes, by their nature, are not as effective in a straight fight. 2) You have a proclivity towards these weaker classes. Thus... 3) a) You should stick to using their abilities, content in the knowledge that your character is highly effective in situations outside of combat, or b) you should consider their relative strengths and weaknesses at character creation, and should you value fighting ability more, play something that fights well instead. Basically, what's a higher priority? Neat abilities, or combat ability? You're going to have to sacrifice somewhere, so it's better to content yourself with the knowledge that the trade was worth it. That seems to be the root of the problem.
babysamurai 08-10-05, 07:52 AM	Improved Intiative is a great feat for any character. Improved Critical with whatever weapon your character favours is always nice. Weapon Finesse if they have a high Dex (especially for a two-weapon fighting Rogue). When all else fails there's always Weapon Focus. And of course Power Attack and Combat Expertise.
Tuah Shinguru 08-10-05, 10:13 AM	Post 1: I meant like, defending myself alone and without help. Post 2: True... I think I'd have to go with sacraficing a couple of neat abilities for more power. Post 3: I like those a lot. Especially weapon focus!
tarkin 08-10-05, 10:34 AM	Power Attack is generally a bad idea for weaker characters. It even needs other things to make it worthwhile for the strong two handed fighter types. Here are things I like for weaker people 1) Use ranged attacks (dex) 2) If they have a strength penalty get a Crossbow 3) go for TWF and the per attack damage (Sneak Attack, flaming weapons, poison, Ranger Favored enemey 4) Try tripping. Once the go down you have +4 to hit, and they need to use an MEA to get up.
Puca 08-10-05, 10:53 AM	If you want to be better a character in combat, and are willing to give up some stuff, you may want to consider multiclassing to figher. A one-level dip in fighter gives you: Proficiency with all martial weapons, all armor, and all shields plus, d10 hit points, +2 base fortitude save, +1 BAB, and a fighter feat. A two-level dip: 2d10 hit points, +3 base fortitude save, +2 BAB, and 2 feats. Since you dont get a bonus feat at level 3, I dont know that it would be worth it to go further. Then, there is multi classing to a more martial PrC that still preserves your basic skills. Take a sorcerer who wants to be better at combat, stronger, and more likely to survive on his own, and is willing to give up some casting to get it. Step 1 - One level dip in fighter Step 2 - Take 1 level of Spellsword from CW. (This lets you ignore 10% of armor's ASF.) Step 3 - go Eldritch Knight At level 20: Sorcerer 8/Fighter 1/Spellsword1/EK10 At level 20, a straight sorcerer has BAB 10 and his saves are +6/+6/+12 and 51.5 hit points before con. The combat built I suggested has BAB 16; saves are +13/+5/+11, and 67.5 hit points. He has two bonus feats (weapon focus maybe, or improved initiative) and he can wear a mithral chain shirt with no ASF. The costs are he is two levels behind in caster level (make this up with practiced spell caster feat) and spells per day and spells known. (But he still has those crucial 9th level spells). Sorry that this was so long, but my point is: look at multiclassing and/or PrCs.
Tuah Shinguru 08-10-05, 11:28 AM	I've been looking at the spellsword as much as I can without the book (can't get it until Friday), and it looks fairly good. What exactly is it, and Eldrich Knight?
kjenks 08-10-05, 12:24 PM	3) go for TWF and the per attack damage (Sneak Attack, flaming weapons, poison, Ranger Favored enemey 4) Try tripping. Once the go down you have +4 to hit, and they need to use an MEA to get up. My current favorite "per attack damage" is getting your buddy to cast Fires of Purity (Complete Divine) on you. The more attacks you can land, the more fire damage you inflict. This combo works really well for two-weapon fighting (TWF), flurry of blows, Weapon Finesse and a high Dex, so you're likely to hit your target pretty often. Naturally, when fighting things immune to fire, you'll be at a disadvantage, but there's a Sandstorm feat (I forget the name) that lets [Fire] spells inflict some damage even on creatures that are immune to fire; see if your buddy can pick up that feat. There are lots of ways for a character to increase attack bonus, some of them often overlooked. A simple Reduce Person spell (or potion or scroll) gives this character a +1 attack bonus due to size and +2 Dex, so your Weapon Finesse works even better. As a bonus, these size and Dex changes also increase your AC by 2. I find that tripping is less effective at high levels since you often fight large, huge or bigger opponents who are less likely to be tripped, and they often laugh at a measly -4 on melee attack rolls, attacking from prone rather than spend a move action getting up. If you want to trip a large, strong foe, your best bet is to be large and strong yourself.
mvincent 08-10-05, 12:59 PM	Try tripping. Once the go down you have +4 to hit, and they need to use an MEA to get up.Since tripping involves a strength check, it can be problematic for weaker characters. Disarming could be an option though. A weak character is at no disadvantage when disarming (assuming you have finesse). Spiked chains are recommended for their reach, finesse, and two-handed bonuses. Disarming people when they are trying to reach you can be fairly effective (make sure you have combat reflexes though).
Puca 08-10-05, 02:26 PM	I've been looking at the spellsword as much as I can without the book (can't get it until Friday), and it looks fairly good. What exactly is it, and Eldrich Knight? Eldritch Knight is in the DMG, and it can be found on the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm It is going to take at least one level in a fighter-type class to get it, because you need proficiency with all martial weapons. (Ive heard that there are some regional feats that grant this, but I dont know.) So, to get this PrC you lose 2 caster levels, one for taking fighter (or ranger or barbarian or paladin) and another for the first level of eldritich knight. That does hurt, especially if youre a sorcerer, but *long-term* youre not going to be that much behind a regular, 20 level sorcerer. (Youll know three fewer spells, and get three fewer spells per day.) Short term - Slightly better hit points, better fort saves and a couple of feats. But way better BAB. I think the PrC works best when you focus on spells that require ranged touch attacks. Theyre usually pretty good spells, but they totally suck if you miss. Better BAB makes this less likely. Look at feats like Split Ray, Chain Spell (both from Complete Arcane) and Reach Spell (Complete Divine) to make the most of this. Also remember, your bonus fighter feats can apply to Weapon Focus, but there is nothing that says you cant Focus on something like ranged touch spell. Spellsword - You need proficiency with all armors (light medium and heavy) to qualify; thats why I recommend fighter. This PrC is half caster progression, which means that you only advance as a caster every other level. I dont like that, but, the great thing is that level 1 gives you caster progression, and the ability to ignore spell failure chances of 10% or less. (Mithral Chain, and all that comes with magical armor.) I wouldnt bother with more than a one-level dip in the PrC, but there are some other nifty little things that might be worth more to you than 9th level spells. Another great thing about getting armor and martial weapons is that you no longer look like a caster. (Consider Eschew Materials). How many times does your DMs description of a "robed figure with a staff of carved wood" get followed by cries of "I ready an arrow to shoot him if he starts casting a spell!" No one ever says that after hearing "Hes wearing a chain shirt and carrying a battle ax."
Tuah Shinguru 08-10-05, 02:39 PM	Thanks a lot for your help! ^_^ Yeah, I'm still waiting for my DMG in the mail... But I think I'm gonna go long-term with a spellsword depending on how well I like the Eldritch Knight. It seems like I'm finally getting to decide what class I want for sure! :D EDIT: Dang, I'm going with Eldritch Knight for sure!
Puca 08-10-05, 02:47 PM	Excellent!
Keenath 08-10-05, 03:23 PM	Yeah, it's hard to turn down full BAB and full caster progression. A little suggestion, though. Unless that level 1 fighter feat is really valuable to you, consider taking Hexblade as your single-level dip to get the martial weapons proficiency. A single level of hexblade (if your DM allows) will let you throw a hexblade curse 1/day, get your proficiency requirement, and light armor besides. (Go for a mithral shirt -- you'll probably not mind the 10% ASF rate!) It's nice for a caster, too, if you can use a turn to try to soften up a target's saves for an upcoming big spell, like Disintegrate or similar. Or, you could choose Ranger for the favored enemy. You also get track and wild empathy, but since you're not going to stick with Ranger those may not be terribly valuable to you. On the other hand, weapon-like spells, like rays and touch attacks and.. well, anything that has an attack roll, all benefit from your FE damage bonus. Personally, I'd go for the Hexblade if I didn't feel strongly about the Fighter feat, but that's totally up to you. (In my experience, a single first-level fighter feat isn't useful unless it's just for prereqs to get a better feat.) Edit: Oops! Forgot that Hexblades have to be non-good. That could mess up this plan...
Puca 08-10-05, 04:20 PM	The only reason I recommended fighter over the many others is that in the process of qualifying you for EK, it also qualifies you for Spellsword, and I love the one-level dip into Spellsword for the armor. But, if the armor doesnt interest you or dont mind some ASF, a cursing hexblade is nice. Really cool flavor. If youre lawful good, go paladin: Detect evil, smite and get his spells on your class list so you can use wands of CLW. Also cool.