Big Bad Bane Bonuses? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Big Bad Bane Bonuses? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Demetri_Knighthawk
04-13-08, 03:35 PM alright, I easily understand that a +1 bane(undead) rapier is a +2 sword, but:

1) you need a +1 to get a bane bonus to a sword, making it +2 for costs, but now that you have the +1 cost, can you simply add more banes as they are only +1 enchantments so a +1 baneX5 sword costs +6?
2) can you stack banes? so say a +5 rapier bane (undead)X5 for +15 hit +10d6 damage verss undead? and would it cost as a +10 sword?

Or, to simplify it: is a baneX5 sword +6 or +10 for costs?
aelryinth
04-13-08, 05:58 PM bane effects do not stack on one another, and a weapon can only be bane to a creature once, not multiple times.

For instance, a sword with Bane (evil outsiders), bane (chaotic outsiders) and bane (fire creatures) is not +6/+6 and +6d6 against a balor. It's just bane....+2/+2 and +2d6.

It's a very cheap and effective way of getting a potent weapon against a type of recurring foe in your campaign. Undead, dragon, and evil outsider banes seem to top the list, although a humanocentric campaign humanbane is pretty nice, too.

===Aelryinth
kinevon
04-13-08, 06:00 PM A Bane weapon must have at least a +1 basic magical enchantment, so a basic Bane weapon is +2, +1 basic plus +1 for the Bane enhancement.

You could make a multiple Bane weapon, adding +1 for each additional Bane, so a weapon with 5 banes would be +6 total.

You cannot have the same bane on the weapon more than once. Your GM might allow it for a home game, but that is non-standard. Just lioke any other enhancement, it is either there, or it isn't.

You can't have a weapon that is +1/+1, so how could you have a weapon +1/Bane Undead/Bane Undead, since it is already undead bane?

Pardon me, there is one way to get a weapon that is +1/+1, and that is a double-weapon, since each part is enhanced individually. But for a normal weapon, you can only put any enhancement on it once, which is way it costs more to add another "+1" to a "+1" weapon, since you are making it something different, a "+2" weapon.

Think of it as how a bow and arrows work, where +1 arrows fired from a +1 bow are still just treated as +1 arrows.
Demetri_Knighthawk
04-13-08, 07:13 PM thanks for the answers guys, topic closed ^_^
war_thog
04-14-08, 12:50 AM Also bane gives an additional + 2, making your +1 bane(undead) rapier +3 vs the undead.
mvincent
04-14-08, 01:32 PM bane effects do not stack on one another, and a weapon can only be bane to a creature once, not multiple times.While I agree, from some very long discussions on this (links available on request), the consensus among the rules lawyers was that the enhancement bonus wouldn't stack, but the extra dice would. Although you could not put identical banes on the same weapon anyway, the issue might arise if say, an evil outsider bane bow fired a chaotic outsider bane arrow at a demon.

Correction: Sage Advice in Dragon #356 ruled that the bane benefits don't stack at all, that a weapon is either bane for creature or not. So those prior discussions don't matter much.

Note: none of the Sage advice answers from these later editions made it into the 3.5 FAQ like normal. No reason has been given, but this was around the same time that WotC announced that Paizo would no longer be publishing Dragon.
SolenVlos
04-14-08, 07:07 PM there are 2 improved versions of bane: one is the epic dread(I suggest Holy Power as a good mix), the other is one from MIC, which I can't recall the name from work...somelse might have the books on hand to say it

cheers
aelryinth
04-14-08, 11:38 PM IN the MIC, there's a Burst effect for banes, I believe, and there's also augment crystals which are basically mini-Banes against Undead, Evil OUtsiders, and Constructs.

==Aelryinth
Nezkrul
04-15-08, 09:10 AM sage has been blatantly wrong in the past, multiple times. IMO, he's wrong about the damage bonuses (the extra 2d6's) not stacking. I agree with the enhancement bonus not stacking because of the wording of the enhancement itself.
mvincent
04-15-08, 12:29 PM sage has been blatantly wrong in the past, Considering his role is to answer hundreds of debatable issues, it'd be impossible for him not to be (at least in any one person's eyes). But as someone that has studied the FAQ in depth, most of the things people think are wrong are merely matters of interpretation (i.e. any answer would be decried as wrong by many people, but really there was no true right or wrong answer). Regardless, the FAQ is reviewed by thousands of people like me (that write in constantly to mention any errors), and any genuine errors are typically corrected. It's probably the most proofread document WotC has published.

IMO, he's wrong about the damage bonuses (the extra 2d6's) not stacking.I don't disagree that your interpretation is a good one. Regardless, the matter was definitely open to interpretation, so an (any) official interpretation is a good thing.

Play as you like. I'm perfectly content to let the reader decide whose interpretation to use.
aelryinth
04-15-08, 09:11 PM Aye, the bane ruling flows from 'same source' rulings that also limit why you can't stack 4 flaming enchantments on a weapon, and why multiple defender weapons don't stack with one another.

The +2d6 comes from the weapon being Bane to a creature. While being x3 bane is technically possible, it's all same source....Bane dmg. And dmg from the same source doesn't stack.

This, of course, can get really dicey when you get into the 'baneless' bane damages, like Magebane and Shadowscourge and such things, which act just like bane X, but aren't labelled as being Bane weapons. Functionally, I'd rule them the same thing, just addressing the bane issue differently, but RAW, they are clumsy and could be considered to stack.

==Aelryinth
mvincent
04-15-08, 09:52 PM dmg from the same source doesn't stack.The stacking rules don't apply to damage (i.e. damage stacks... that how creatures normally die). The damage from two fireballs, magic missiles, swords, etc always stack.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Demetri_Knighthawk 04-13-08, 03:35 PM	alright, I easily understand that a +1 bane(undead) rapier is a +2 sword, but: 1) you need a +1 to get a bane bonus to a sword, making it +2 for costs, but now that you have the +1 cost, can you simply add more banes as they are only +1 enchantments so a +1 baneX5 sword costs +6? 2) can you stack banes? so say a +5 rapier bane (undead)X5 for +15 hit +10d6 damage verss undead? and would it cost as a +10 sword? Or, to simplify it: is a baneX5 sword +6 or +10 for costs?
aelryinth 04-13-08, 05:58 PM	bane effects do not stack on one another, and a weapon can only be bane to a creature once, not multiple times. For instance, a sword with Bane (evil outsiders), bane (chaotic outsiders) and bane (fire creatures) is not +6/+6 and +6d6 against a balor. It's just bane....+2/+2 and +2d6. It's a very cheap and effective way of getting a potent weapon against a type of recurring foe in your campaign. Undead, dragon, and evil outsider banes seem to top the list, although a humanocentric campaign humanbane is pretty nice, too. ===Aelryinth
kinevon 04-13-08, 06:00 PM	A Bane weapon must have at least a +1 basic magical enchantment, so a basic Bane weapon is +2, +1 basic plus +1 for the Bane enhancement. You could make a multiple Bane weapon, adding +1 for each additional Bane, so a weapon with 5 banes would be +6 total. You cannot have the same bane on the weapon more than once. Your GM might allow it for a home game, but that is non-standard. Just lioke any other enhancement, it is either there, or it isn't. You can't have a weapon that is +1/+1, so how could you have a weapon +1/Bane Undead/Bane Undead, since it is already undead bane? Pardon me, there is one way to get a weapon that is +1/+1, and that is a double-weapon, since each part is enhanced individually. But for a normal weapon, you can only put any enhancement on it once, which is way it costs more to add another "+1" to a "+1" weapon, since you are making it something different, a "+2" weapon. Think of it as how a bow and arrows work, where +1 arrows fired from a +1 bow are still just treated as +1 arrows.
Demetri_Knighthawk 04-13-08, 07:13 PM	thanks for the answers guys, topic closed ^_^
war_thog 04-14-08, 12:50 AM	Also bane gives an additional + 2, making your +1 bane(undead) rapier +3 vs the undead.
mvincent 04-14-08, 01:32 PM	bane effects do not stack on one another, and a weapon can only be bane to a creature once, not multiple times.While I agree, from some very long discussions on this (links available on request), the consensus among the rules lawyers was that the enhancement bonus wouldn't stack, but the extra dice would. Although you could not put identical banes on the same weapon anyway, the issue might arise if say, an evil outsider bane bow fired a chaotic outsider bane arrow at a demon. Correction: Sage Advice in Dragon #356 ruled that the bane benefits don't stack at all, that a weapon is either bane for creature or not. So those prior discussions don't matter much. Note: none of the Sage advice answers from these later editions made it into the 3.5 FAQ like normal. No reason has been given, but this was around the same time that WotC announced that Paizo would no longer be publishing Dragon.
SolenVlos 04-14-08, 07:07 PM	there are 2 improved versions of bane: one is the epic dread(I suggest Holy Power as a good mix), the other is one from MIC, which I can't recall the name from work...somelse might have the books on hand to say it cheers
aelryinth 04-14-08, 11:38 PM	IN the MIC, there's a Burst effect for banes, I believe, and there's also augment crystals which are basically mini-Banes against Undead, Evil OUtsiders, and Constructs. ==Aelryinth
Nezkrul 04-15-08, 09:10 AM	sage has been blatantly wrong in the past, multiple times. IMO, he's wrong about the damage bonuses (the extra 2d6's) not stacking. I agree with the enhancement bonus not stacking because of the wording of the enhancement itself.
mvincent 04-15-08, 12:29 PM	sage has been blatantly wrong in the past, Considering his role is to answer hundreds of debatable issues, it'd be impossible for him not to be (at least in any one person's eyes). But as someone that has studied the FAQ in depth, most of the things people think are wrong are merely matters of interpretation (i.e. any answer would be decried as wrong by many people, but really there was no true right or wrong answer). Regardless, the FAQ is reviewed by thousands of people like me (that write in constantly to mention any errors), and any genuine errors are typically corrected. It's probably the most proofread document WotC has published. IMO, he's wrong about the damage bonuses (the extra 2d6's) not stacking.I don't disagree that your interpretation is a good one. Regardless, the matter was definitely open to interpretation, so an (any) official interpretation is a good thing. Play as you like. I'm perfectly content to let the reader decide whose interpretation to use.
aelryinth 04-15-08, 09:11 PM	Aye, the bane ruling flows from 'same source' rulings that also limit why you can't stack 4 flaming enchantments on a weapon, and why multiple defender weapons don't stack with one another. The +2d6 comes from the weapon being Bane to a creature. While being x3 bane is technically possible, it's all same source....Bane dmg. And dmg from the same source doesn't stack. This, of course, can get really dicey when you get into the 'baneless' bane damages, like Magebane and Shadowscourge and such things, which act just like bane X, but aren't labelled as being Bane weapons. Functionally, I'd rule them the same thing, just addressing the bane issue differently, but RAW, they are clumsy and could be considered to stack. ==Aelryinth
mvincent 04-15-08, 09:52 PM	dmg from the same source doesn't stack.The stacking rules don't apply to damage (i.e. damage stacks... that how creatures normally die). The damage from two fireballs, magic missiles, swords, etc always stack.