Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Romulus LoneWolf 02-14-06, 05:06 PM	Ok, saw the preview image for the upcoming Warduke miniature for D&D Miniatures, and I got to thinking.. ...How would you rate the armor he's wearing? It's really just one chainmail sleeve, one chainmail pantleg, a belt and a shoulderpad.. It's basically a Murmillo-style suit of armor, which is not exactly covered by any of the regular rules for armor, is it? ...Similarly, the "traditional" chainmail bikini favored by some female warriors (or at least the males who like female warriors) isn't exactly a chainmail shirt, is it? How would you shape the rules to simulate suits of armor which don't really cover the whole body?
CryoSilver 02-14-06, 05:14 PM	Quite simple: it looks pretty, but provides no armor bonus. If magical, treat it as an armor with a bonus of +0 for purposes of enhancement. Hence: +1 chainmail bikini costs 1,000 + cost of mwk CMB and grants a +1 armor bonus.
masterofmayhem 02-14-06, 05:22 PM	Ok, saw the preview image for the upcoming Warduke miniature for D&D Miniatures, and I got to thinking.. ...How would you rate the armor he's wearing? It's really just one chainmail sleeve, one chainmail pantleg, a belt and a shoulderpad.. It's basically a Murmillo-style suit of armor, which is not exactly covered by any of the regular rules for armor, is it? There is a issue of either Dragon or Dungeon with a big picture of Warduke on the front. The article within lists his stats, as well as detailing the "ceremonial armor" he wears. Ceremonial is a template that can be added to any armor, and it does several things. I don't really remember all of it (I could tell you this saturday, assuming I can find the magazine), but I think it lowers the Arcane Spell Failure, reduces the Armor Check Penalty, increases max dex, and lowers the armor bonus provided (it might halve it). All this is done, but the armor remains the same category (light, medium, heavy, etcetera), making it quite useless for anything other than aesthetics, in my opinion. I had wanted to use it for a barbarian with whom AC did not matter at all, but the fact that Ceremonial hide that provided a whole point of armor class (or something like that) was medium armor made it impossible. :rolleyes: Alternatively, the other (preferred) way to handle pieces of armor is quite simple. Just treat it in all mechanical respects as if it were normal armor, but just change how it looks. For example, a chainmail bikini would function like chainmail for armor class, check penalties, arcane spell failure, and everything else; it would just look different. Or you could assign properties to armor, basing it off the preexisting ones (a chainmail bikini would not realistically provide any armor bonus.
FenrysStar 02-14-06, 05:23 PM	Especially for the bikini, I'd say make it a magic item (wonderous or actual armor is up to the DM) But give the wearer the full effect of the spell Mage Armor (which would also be required for the creation of the item).
Romulus LoneWolf 02-14-06, 06:31 PM	Well, before resorting to magic, I wanted to make mundane versions of said armors.. So, here are my attempts: Light Armor Murmillo Armor 75 gp AC +3 Max Dex +6 Ar Chk -1 Ar Sp Failure 10% Spd 30ft/20ft 15 lbs Chainmail Bikini 60 gp AC +2 Max Dex +8 Ar Chk 0 Ar Sp Failure 5% Spd 30ft/20ft 10 lbs Murmillo Armor: This minimalist armor consists of a loincloth, belt, a short greave on one leg and an arm guard and shoulderplate on the sword arm. Chainmail Bikini: This armor consists of strips of chainmail pieces arranged in a bikini fashion for female warriors, covering their privates while leaving the rest of their bodies unveiled. There, now that I have a mundane version to start with, it'll be easy enough to create magical versions of both suits of armor.
CryoSilver 02-14-06, 07:18 PM	How does lingerie made of metal provide +2 AC? That's as much as a large steel shield. Let me tell you, I'd have absolutely no trouble slipping a shiv into the female's ribs while her well-protected genitals just chill out and don't get attacked. Leather armor is +2 AC. A chainmail bikini is scratchy.
FenrysStar 02-14-06, 07:49 PM	How does lingerie made of metal provide +2 AC? That's as much as a large steel shield. Let me tell you, I'd have absolutely no trouble slipping a shiv into the female's ribs while her well-protected genitals just chill out and don't get attacked. Leather armor is +2 AC. A chainmail bikini is scratchy. Is there a reason you keep zeroing in on the bikini for your negativity? Are you one of those homosexuals who detest females to the point of homicide?
Tony Vargas 02-14-06, 07:53 PM	How would you shape the rules to simulate suits of armor which don't really cover the whole body?Just like the game handles chainmail vs chain shirt or breastplate vs full plate: make it lighter. Chainmail is medium armor - partial chain mail would be light armor. If it provides even less coverage than the standard chain shirt, you could count it as a chain shirt, but reduce the weight and armor bonus (I'd hesitate to mess with Max DEX or ASF%, as the results could concievably be abused - you can't make leather armor out of mithral, for instance, but if you had a 'cropped' chain shirt that had similar stats....).
CryoSilver 02-14-06, 07:55 PM	No; but I can see the other type being at least marginally useful for deflecting small weapons, kind of like a shield with the sleeve. If it covered a leg, arm and part of the chest, maybe, maybe, a +1 armor bonus, at a stretch. A bikini made of mail, on the other hand, protects almost nothing, and certainly doesn't provide any means by which to slap aside a thrust, like you could with a mailed arm.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-14-06, 07:55 PM	How does lingerie made of metal provide +2 AC? That's as much as a large steel shield. Let me tell you, I'd have absolutely no trouble slipping a shiv into the female's ribs while her well-protected genitals just chill out and don't get attacked. Leather armor is +2 AC. A chainmail bikini is scratchy. Actually, I based myself on Leather armor for the chainmail bikini, only I made it lighter. And frankly, in a world that has Spiked Chains, Dire Flails and Gnome Hooked Hammers, I don't think a chainmail bikini stretches credibility all that much.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-14-06, 07:57 PM	Just like the game handles chainmail vs chain shirt or breastplate vs full plate: make it lighter. Chainmail is medium armor - partial chain mail would be light armor. If it provides even less coverage than the standard chain shirt, you could count it as a chain shirt, but reduce the weight and armor bonus (I'd hesitate to mess with Max DEX or ASF%, as the results could concievably be abused - you can't make leather armor out of mithral, for instance, but if you had a 'cropped' chain shirt that had similar stats....). Well, that's essentially what I did. Thanks for the feedback.
FenrysStar 02-14-06, 07:59 PM	Not to mention two bladed swords, orc double axe, dwarven urgosh, the idea that a steel ball festooned with spikes somehow deals bludgeoning... Plus if a chain mail bikini is not armor how do explain Red Sonja and her countless clones throughout D&D's history?
malignor 02-14-06, 08:59 PM	Chainmail Bikini Armor Bonus +1, ACPenalty 0, Arcane Failure 0% If physically appearing as an attractive female humanoid (such as a succubus or nymph), add charisma to AC and Reflex saves as a "I just can't hurt a foxy babe" bonus, which stacks with all other AC bonuses. It behaves like a deflection bonus in that it applies to touch AC as well, and is active even while flat footed. Furthermore, any attacker must make a Will save with DC equal to (10+IJCHAFB bonus) or use only subdual attacks and, attempt to carry around the wearer and strike poses remeniscent of fantasy paintings. Commonly worn by high-charisma female humanoid warriors, as well as creatures who take advantage of such a form. Examples include erinyes, succubus, dopplegangers and rakshasas.
Tony Vargas 02-14-06, 09:22 PM	Well, that's essentially what I did. Thanks for the feedback.Except you also lowered the ASF%. Note that archanists will be able to wear either type in mithral, with essentially no penalty (mithral reduces both the ASF and the ACP to 0, so spells always work, and proficiency isn't even required). This can already happen with mithral bucklers. Another alternative for nominal-coverage armor is to treat it like bracers, as a wonderous item. Perhaps a wonderous item that takes the robe/armor slot.
Romanus_Mortus 02-14-06, 09:52 PM	Frankly, from a purely logical standpoint, I don't see why a chainmail bikini should get any armor bonus at all. All the armor in D&D implies a degree of total-body protection. The chain shirt would be paired with studded leather pants. Chainmail covers the legs as well as torso, etc. Wearing 5 lbs of chainlinks over your groin and breasts would be about as protective as being naked with greaves and gauntlets - I mean think about it. Now if you want to have some flavor in your world, then I say reject the realistic implications and just make it count as a chain shirt. So what if it totally flies in the face of reason, are there so many chainmail bikinis in your world that you really need a new set of crunch? And is it fair to penalize somebody just because they want their armor to look differently? For me, things like the chainmail bikini are best left to sketches of the character, and the 'description' section of the character sheet. If you're going to get bent out of shape over a staple of action/fantasy, then you might as well play a different game, because there's a LOT in D&D far more perplexing than how a barbarian princess can garner a decent AC mod by strapping a metal handkerchief to her chest. As for the Murmillo...that shoulder guard was pretty massive, as was the helmet (for those that wore them, and yes, some murmillos wore helms). Again, in D&D a few well-placed arrows would end a Murmillo's day pretty quickly. But if a character in my campaign wanted armor like that, I'd probably let it count as a breastplate if I was feeling generous, or the equivalent of a chain shirt if I was feeling stingy. Again, I feel that as a DM it is important to concede the little flavor things (like appearance of armor), that way you don't seem like as much of a jerk when you have to veto something that is genuinely damaging to your game.
IrishRover 02-14-06, 11:53 PM	Scanty "armors" such as the chainmail bikini are enchanted as bracers of defence (now Bracers of Armor) but occupy the armor spot. Simple...
Mist of Shadows 02-15-06, 01:09 AM	I like that last option.
terrashand 02-15-06, 03:00 AM	Do any of you really have anything worth while to ***** at? Jesus I figured this would turn into a comedy thread but here goes everyone bringing realism into a fantasy world again. If you want to talk about the clothes they wear how about talking about the countless hordes of fully armored demons, devils, and who knows what behind them that they slaughter? And you folks are complaining about the clothes? Malignor that armor you made is now being worn by my wife's character.
guru7892 02-15-06, 03:14 AM	Do any of you really have anything worth while to ***** at? Jesus I figured this would turn into a comedy thread but here goes everyone bringing realism into a fantasy world again. If you want to talk about the clothes they wear how about talking about the countless hordes of fully armored demons, devils, and who knows what behind them that they slaughter? And you folks are complaining about the clothes? Malignor that armor you made is now being worn by my wife's character. anyway, i think that if certain pieces of armor and clothing are well made and expensive thsy should carry an ac bonus. if im waring some hip brand of clothing, no self respecting creature would harm me. i also think we should house rule that combat can't be started in art galleries and facny homes due to the damage it may cause. just because we kill things accross the country side doesnt mean we can fiddle with interrior decorating...
terrashand 02-15-06, 03:40 AM	if im waring some hip brand of clothing, no self respecting creature would harm me. i also think we should house rule that combat can't be started in art galleries and facny homes due to the damage it may cause. just because we kill things accross the country side doesnt mean we can fiddle with interrior decorating... Hip brand of clothing. Oops maybe we should mention this to kids in High School.
wallaceclenchfist 02-15-06, 04:41 AM	Do any of you really have anything worth while to ***** at? Jesus I figured this would turn into a comedy thread but here goes everyone bringing realism into a fantasy world again. If you want to talk about the clothes they wear how about talking about the countless hordes of fully armored demons, devils, and who knows what behind them that they slaughter? And you folks are complaining about the clothes? Malignor that armor you made is now being worn by my wife's character. Probably the most enlightened response on this thread. It's a game. I know some people dig ultra-realism in their campaigns, but for me, it has always been a stretch for me to reconcile fantasy biologicals with any sense of believability, least of which the amount of boobage the average rpg barwench has. :D
kintire 02-15-06, 07:05 AM	The various gladiatorial armours were designed to provide reasonable protection along one attack line, but provide interesting tactical challenges. I would be inclined to treat them as a sort of armoured version of the dodge feat... normal bonus for the armour against one foe only. Chainmail bikinis might work in a similar way, depending how high or gritty your campaign is!
Kary Wanzer 02-15-06, 08:38 AM	:w: Like most things in D&D, armor is highly abstracted. It makes you harder to hit instead of reducing the damage you take per hit, and the PHB description states that armor may or may not come with or be worn with boots, gauntlets, a helmet, or other pieces, yet none of this affects the defensive properties or encumbrance of said armor. Realistically speaking, there's no way that not wearing boots, gauntlets and a helmet would leave you as well defended as if you were wearing them, yet in D&D, or many popular movies, main characters often leave their head exposed and visible (to be easily identified by the audience), and seem to dress for fashion as much as for protection. Yet they are never penalized for their lapse in logic. Chainmail bikini? As long as it still has the same amount of weight, ASF, ACP, and MDB, it can look like anything the person wearing it wants it to look like, and still be chainmail that provides the same armor bonus. This is where personal flavor and aesthetics has precedence over realism and logic. :r:
Romanus_Mortus 02-15-06, 08:47 AM	:w: Like most things in D&D, armor is highly abstracted. It makes you harder to hit instead of reducing the damage you take per hit, and the PHB description states that armor may or may not come with or be worn with boots, gauntlets, a helmet, or other pieces, yet none of this affects the defensive properties or encumbrance of said armor. Realistically speaking, there's no way that not wearing boots, gauntlets and a helmet would leave you as well defended as if you were wearing them, yet in D&D, or many popular movies, main characters often leave their head exposed and visible (to be easily identified by the audience), and seem to dress for fashion as much as for protection. Yet they are never penalized for their lapse in logic. Chainmail bikini? As long as it still has the same amount of weight, ASF, ACP, and MDB, it can look like anything the person wearing it wants it to look like, and still be chainmail that provides the same armor bonus. This is where personal flavor and aesthetics has precedence over realism and logic. :r: Amen, finally a fellow voice of reason out here in the wilderness. No need to change anything. Your armor on paper is your armor on paper, and how you describe it is how you describe it. Now if you described your leather armor as platemail, that might be a bit unreasonable. But if you want your breastplate to be more of an oversized should guard, or your scale mail to be just sleeves and a skirt, why should the DM have any reason to veto that, or make life more complicated by toying with the rules? Just leave well enough alone with this sort of thing, folks, it makes the game so much easier.
Vrellum 02-15-06, 10:02 AM	I agree. Don't mess with the stats, just make it a chain shirt. Same AC bonus, weight, ASF and skill check penalty.
masterofmayhem 02-15-06, 03:57 PM	Amen, finally a fellow voice of reason out here in the wilderness. Didn't I state that same thing earlier? :confused: ;)
Watchman 02-15-06, 04:39 PM	You could also treat them as perfectly normal armours of some suitable type that have simply been enchanted with a permanent illusion. This one would be a direct rip-off og the Macho Leathers and Chainmail Bikinis of GURPS Magic Items, but it seems like a workable idea. After all, low-end illusion spells that just make one thing look different come pretty cheap, right ? Presto, all you need for ridiculously decorative armour without sacrificing any of the protection. 'Course, following the usual lines showing off works by, application of that idea in large scale would most likely result in genuinely useless overdecorated armour becoming the hip thing for status-symbol Imperial/Royal/Palace Guard type forces, naturally with the price jacked through the roof... Sort of how like an extremely expensive high-end mechanical watch handmade by a wizened little old Swiss master is a prestigious status symbol in a world of cheap-and-cheerful, insanely accurate digital watches. Hey, wealth has no value unless it is displayed.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-15-06, 06:24 PM	Just curious.. What's the Ceremonial Armor template like, and how does it work? Can you give me an exemple?
masterofmayhem 02-15-06, 08:47 PM	As I said, I am unsure of the exact location. I only know it is found in one of the Dungone/Dragon magazines my DM has. The magazine in question has a big picture of Warduke on front, and the article inside has a lot of information on him, and also has his 3.5 stats. A little box on one page talks about his armor, which uses the ceremonial template. Basically, ceremonial armor is just a piece or pieces of armor, which suits what you are looking for pretty well. Making an armor ceremonial costs quite a bit of money as far as mundane items go, I believe, and it has a number of effects. This is all off the top of my head, as I have not read the article in a while, but I believe some of the things it did was to raise the maximum dexterity of an armor while lowering its weight, reducing arcane spell failure, lowering the armor check penalty, and lowering the actual Armor Class bonus. Ceremonial armor has the same weight category as full armor of its type (for example, ceremonial full plate is still heavy armor, despite the fact it now weight as much as chainmail and has the same defensive capabilities.
Subedei 02-15-06, 08:59 PM	Well an armor that just covers the lead leg and arm is an considerable advantage that shouldn't be ignored.
Vahenir 02-15-06, 10:43 PM	Realism in gaming is good. That is, if your entire group is into it. In this case, where it seems the group is probably just the typical D&D group not really concerned with how much plate armour should weigh, or how wide a shortsword really is, then realism does have to take a backseat. I agree with other posters who have stated that a 'chainmail' bikini is simply whatever stats you think are appropriate. I had a player once that took full plate stats and described it as just a crap-load of leather straps and buckles all over his body. Whatever. He was willing to accept the entire stat block - penalties included, so what do I care how he envisions his armour (we were playing a typical game, rather than a realism-minded one, which is atypical for me). Although kintire's suggestion about Gladiatorial armour was also worth considering.
Vrellum 02-16-06, 09:24 AM	One thing though, don't change a nonmetal armor into a metal one. For example give a chainmail bikini the stats of leather armor (or even better than leather like you did in your post). The reason is, a chainmail bikini can be made of mithril and then it becomes even better. No ASF, higher max dex, etc. That's the reason I said to treat it as a chain shirt.
Vahenir 02-16-06, 02:04 PM	One thing though, don't change a nonmetal armor into a metal one. I see no reason not to give a nonmetal armour the stats of metal armour, or vice versa. Everyone at the table knows what you're wearing, so everyone knows if things like 'mithral' are appropriate or not. As a DM I don't feel obligated to let my player have mithral leather straps just because his straps used full plate stats.
Tony Vargas 02-16-06, 02:18 PM	metal --> non-metal isn't a big deal, since there are already options like dragonhide available. non-metal --> metal is a potential issue, because of the existance of mithral, and the effects it has a max DEX and ASF%. Obviously, you could rule that the armor 'can't' be made of mithral for some reason, or that mithral has no benefit, because the armor is already so light... Just a caution.
Frugal 02-16-06, 02:51 PM	...Similarly, the "traditional" chainmail bikini favored by some female warriors (or at least the males who like female warriors) isn't exactly a chainmail shirt, is it? How would you shape the rules to simulate suits of armor which don't really cover the whole body? As a joke I was developing rules for gender substitution levels. Female barbarian/fighter (probably barbarian) would have a 1st level substitution that allows them to add their CHA bonus to AC when scantedly clad. Higher substitution levels would probably add endure elements and possibly some ability to get an AC bonus out of bikini armour but I hadn't worked out the mechanics yet. Like I said, completely a joke but it does offer up a mechanic for the classic Red Sonja fantasy chick. Either that or just allow "breasts" as an equipment space only useable by female characters not wearing a top and "groin" as an equipment space for male or female characters not wearing pants. Then you could things like "bra of deflection +3" or "+2 loin cloth of natural armour". I'd argue that you wouldn't get any normal AC bonus for the item and would only get AC bonuses from the enhancements. The problem there is that the material doesn't play any part (ie, a mithril chainmail bikini gets no advantage over a normal chainmail bikini, and what about plate bikinis or dragonhide, etc?)