Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheAngryRogue 07-21-05, 12:10 AM	Ok I ran into this very tough situation- My NPC Very Evil Cleric Guy, has the party wizard grabbed from behind with a blade to his throat. What the heck are the rules on this? None of the grapple rules seem like they would work, so i dont know what to do. Maybe rule the mage is helpless? therefore giving the cleric a coup de grace? I dunno. Suggestions please!
Lord Schpungus 07-21-05, 12:56 AM	that, my friend, is a situation that works well in movies but not in D&D. If I had to rule, the wizard would be helpless and subject to coup de grace.
Callahan 07-21-05, 01:27 AM	that, my friend, is a situation that works well in movies but not in D&D. If I had to rule, the wizard would be helpless and subject to coup de grace. Yeah pretty much. Just ready a coup de grace action on a helpless opponent and it works just fine. Though I've always hated the idea that a level 20 barbarians can have his neck cut and still live.
Nom 07-21-05, 02:29 AM	Firstly, it's not that trivial to grab someone from behind and stick a blade to their throat. It's one thing to do it to a commoner, who has no intention of fighting back, but quite another to do it to someone who's used to being attacked by creatures capable of rending them limb from limb. Basically, in order to reach a "suspended GdC" situation, the target needs to be helpless, either because they started helpless or because they voluntarily declared themselves to be ("or I'll kill you" is a good enough motivation). Once they are in this situation, it's tricky to rule. The most rules-legal response is that the target can declare themselves not helpless at any time, thus voiding the possibility of a CdG, but this isn't entirely satisfying. A better alternative is an opposed initiative check - if the character wins they are still "helpless" when the agressor gets to act, otherwise they are not. Note that even the above house rule assumes that the agressor can effectively deliver an attack almost instantaneously. This may be true for somewhat awkward postures like a dagger to the throat, but is certainly not true for any situation that requires swinging. If you're standing over me with a raised axe and I decide to move, you will not get a CdG. I might be flat-footed and prone, but it takes you time to swing, and that's enough time to be "not helpless". At the risk of bringing "real world" into it, it's actually possible to be "too close" to a gun to be able to be effectively threatened into submission. I can't remember what the actual distance is, but if you are close enough you can move out of the line of fire before the shooter can react and shoot you. Very few people have a reaction time of less than 0.5 seconds, typically closer to 1 even if they are paying attention. If you are willing to take the risk, it's entirely possible to act before the guy with the blade at your throat can actually use it.
Nom 07-21-05, 02:38 AM	Though I've always hated the idea that a level 20 barbarians can have his neck cut and still live.They don't. Instead, they can take survive blows and injuries that would drop lesser mortals but they have trained themselves to survive, whether by luck, constitution or sheer willpower. HP are an abstract measure of all of the above, not a metric for how much force is required to physically dismember a human. I attempt to CdG a barbarian. I fail. He's wounded, but by luck the blow failed to penetrate deeply. And before you argue that a skilled warrior wouldn't ever miss that sort of thing, ask yourself why heroes and major villians on TV can get pummelled, shot, and battered and keep coming back for more, but unimportant characters die easily. And ask why you accept it. Your HP are as more about the dramatic and heroic value of your character as they are a "physical" modelling. It's the same thing that gives the local alderman 5 levels of commoner whereas the rest have just one - the alderman matters, and should be able to stumble out of a collapsed building wounded but alive. The others do not. It's a simulation of heroic fantasy. And that means that it will conform to heroic conventions rather than physical ones, if that improves playability.
Salla 07-21-05, 02:38 AM	Well, let's see. The wizard is not helpless, so he is not subject to a Coup de Grace (CdG). If the cleric has 'grabbed him from behind', then he should be in a grapple. You can deal damage with a weapon during a grapple, so that looks to be the closest thing to what's going on. As stated above, this is a good example of 'works in RL, not in a game, because it would suck in a game'. If you could whack almost anything as easily as that, it would become the only worthwhile tactic in the game, and there goes game balance. If the wizard surviving the attack threatens to snap your suspenders of disbelief, remember that Hit Points do not represent just physical punishment; the wizard may have expended his Hit Points by resisting the attack, pushing the dagger away from his throat, the bare tip pressed into the flesh ... that sorta thing.
Oakspar77777 07-21-05, 03:08 AM	1) Cutting a throat is not as easy as it seems. Ask anyone who has ever done a tracheotamy (throat tube). It is like cutting through a thick cardboard tube (and that is just the throat, the jugular, which you are really after is safely hidden between the throat and a rather hevfty muscle (which cuts like a steak). A quick slash is going to do damage, but it takes some strength to hit gold. 2) The person whose throat you are going to cut is going to move with the blade, minimizing damage. So, what you have is a normal attack, but at some advantage. 1) When you grabbed the guy, you were acting (I'm assuming) in a "Surprise Round" since you were initiating an unexspected attack (though an appropriate Sense Motive check should replace the normal Spot or Listen check that would normally negate a "Surprise Round"). Your grabbing the guy is a grapple, and should be run accordingly (try to get arround a Barbarian like that, and he will just break your wrist). If you succeed, you will enter the square of the guy you are grappling. 2) If everyone else is dumbfounded for the Surprise Round, Initiative is rolled as normal. A quick fellow might win, and get off a quick shot or strike, but since the two of you are in the same square, there is a 50% chance that it will hit them. (PHB page 151 is going to be your friend for these rules). If the person you grabed wins Init, then he might break the grapple and scamper away (you do get an AoO). He might also just turn and engage you in a grapple (since up to that point, you are not grappled). Once you get to act, if you maintain the grapple and are not yourself grappled, you may prepare and hold an attack as a ready action. 3) That gives you the situation you want. You may call for an end to combat as a free action, at which point everyone essentially holds their actions, extending the round. If anyone acts, rather than holding their action, you may make your attack first. Note that Free Actions and Swift actions will trump this, as they would go off before you could react. This is the situation it sounds like your character is currently in. 4) If (when) you make the attack, your foe is grapples and you are not. Thus, they loose their DX bonus to AC (which also negates Dodge bonuses). At the DM's discreation, you probably qualify for a +2 circumstance bonus to your attack as well (essentially, you are invisable to the grappled fellow). Note, that if you were a Rogue (who would end up in this kind of posistion much more consistantly), you would get your Sneak Attack bonus to the foe, since they are denied their DX bonus. 5) So, you pretty much get a free attack off, which you are VERY likely to hit with, but that is about it. If you are a Rogue, you get alot more, but that is because Rogues are just better trained at how to slit a throat (up high, big smilie cut, etc). Note that once you make that attack, the grappled foe really has two choices (turn and grapple you, which usually provokes an AoO OR break the grappel and leave the square, which also usually provokes an AoO). It IS a bad day for that character, but you are not as solid as your probably think, since you are a cleric. If you have multiple attacks, rather than holding one attack, you can also just hack away at their throat. Also, since grappling always stops the DX bonus to AC, it is often a great tactic for Rogues to have no other way to get in sneak attacks, especially against foes who are relying on big weapons or spellcasting. I've seen many Rogues "dive in" against foes who can pummle them in a ST check every time just for the SA bonus.
Rumple_Cragstan 07-21-05, 03:13 AM	Screw the CdG. At lower levels I might allow it, but thats because a decent strike from a dagger can kill you at that level without a CdG. I would call it a crit, maybe with the attack roll being Flat-Footed. I'm sure that after a few combats the Wizard knows how to move so it won't strike vital veins.
crazysamaritan 07-21-05, 01:18 PM	here's another point: in the movies, how many times does the guy with the knife actually get to use it?
Critmaster 07-21-05, 03:55 PM	It's possible to survive anything. It happens every day in real life...people get spikes straight through the head and continue to walk around, or every bone in their body gets broken or their throats get slashed by a mugger. You needn't be a high level barbarian to survive such horrible wounds. I think some sort of survival check is in order even if its only a 1%.
soulknife 07-21-05, 04:39 PM	get the roguish book of luck they have a rule in there. its called the the silent sneak attack and you dont have to be a rogue to do it.
TheAngryRogue 07-21-05, 06:03 PM	Ok but here's the thing: the cleric has a 24 str and is a war cleric. He's got the 8 str wizard grabbed brom behind and has the dagger to his throat. The wizard isnt going anywhere. I underastand it works better in real life situations, but I really think that A: If a character manages to come up from behind and make a touch attack roll to grab the character, and then an opposed strength (not grapple) check to see if he holds, then the character that was grabbed is helpless. Thats my opinion and probably what im gonna rule.
soulknife 07-21-05, 07:19 PM	sounds good to me.
ClementWillowbreaker 07-21-05, 09:36 PM	That is not good at all. It instantly becomes the immediate tactic to use, since you can now CdG anyone you can beat with a Str check- why use a Greatsword now? "Move and I kill you" can be represented by readying an action to attack if someone acts. So you give the person (in metagame terms) a chance to forfit their Dex to AC/stay flatfooted (delaying their action indefinitely). This is a sensible tactic if you catch them without their Dex to AC (you feinted and sidled up behind, which doesn't have to be a grapple necessarily, or surprised them). If they think they are lucky enough, they can continue fighting, risking a flatfooted attack (and if you are rogue, you can make that hurt, so the victim should have that in mind). Here's another way. You might be able to demand an opponent make himself helpless. This may or may not be possible- its up to the DM. In which case, you could technically "start" a CdG with a standard action, and finish it on a Readied action (works best if you can surprise and beat initiative). This is a core rule for Full-round actions, btw. Or you could use Swift Executioner from CV to make a CdG as a standard, readied action. Now, why would anyone put themselves at someone else's mercy, when it just makes it worse for them? If the situation looks like they would die if they fought back anyway, at least holding still can stave off death until they get rescued. This is not something that happens to heroes normally- they are not lvl1 Commoners/Experts like most hostages. Other factors make this submission more likely, like insane Intimidate checks and a player mature enough to take them into consideration (rather than ignoring it unless it inflicts a fear effect on them). Or else an enemy that has demonstrated that death is inevitable, if they so wish it. I'm getting images of that Spring-Attacking Shadow Dancer with +40 Hide...
SBMC 07-21-05, 10:45 PM	Simple Solution: #1 Attacker gets grapple check; the target is flatfooted if approprriate. -If flatfooted CdG maybe possible -If Target is not flatfooted no CdG (knew the badguy was behind him; jsut got grabbed is all) #2 Following this I would say you get two saves here; first is a reflex save and second a grapple check versus the opponents grapple check (thus the attacker rolls again). If you loose both ya get CdG'd (provided the attacker rolls good enough per the normal CdG rules) No matter what happens all along Normal Grapple rules apply HOWEVER seeing as the attacker is holding a knife to your throat (as in trying to cut it) ya get a penalty of some sort (don't ask me how much (say -5). After all one hand that would be used for grappling is trying to make a precise attack. In a normal grapple with a weapon you are trying to hit the enemy wherever you can; not one spot. This penalty would not apply to the initial grapple in #1. #3 CdG attempt if appropriate; with penalty noted above for grappling (-5; jsut as an example). #3A Victim saves: the attacker can try again however with a stacking penalty on the attacker (seeing as the victim has a single thing to defend during this grapple - the knife aimed at his throat!) So in other words - 1. ya start the grapple (roll 1) 2. You try to cut the throat (with penalties) 3. VICTIM GETS 2 SAVES - if they miss both they are subject to CdG per the rules) if you fail 4A. CdG if appropriate 4B. Try again; with stacking penalties or change to normal grapple
Willie the Duck 07-21-05, 11:26 PM	There are no rules for this, and deliberatley so. The knife to the throat is a wonderful plot device in movies, where someone always destracts the BBEG so that the hero can rush him before he can cut the throat of the Damsel(Dude) In Distress, and live happily ever after. In D&D, the blade to the throat is a false dilemma. You either 1) can't do a darn thing about it, and the bad guy wins, or 2) the bad guy can't really kill the person, because of XYZ, depending on the way the DM set up the situation. Furthermore, the whole idea is anethema to the D&D philosophy. This is a game of heroes versus monsters, not cops vs. murderers. You win by bold, gallant, brave deads, not middling hostage negotiation. people are supposed to fight, taking blows and surviving, not either 1) not fighting because the bad guy laid down his weapon and was arrested or 2) died completely helpless.
AngryNinja 07-22-05, 12:09 AM	You win by bold, gallant, brave deads, not middling hostage negotiation. people are supposed to fight, taking blows and surviving, not either 1) not fighting because the bad guy laid down his weapon and was arrested or 2) died completely helpless. Okay, D&D is not just a game where you run in and hack stuff up hopeing to live. It is a role playing game. The question is how can we put in a rule to move fluidly from the role playing intimidation of the part by holding an ally to a blade from behind to either combat or surrendering.
Vahenir 07-22-05, 12:20 AM	This conversation again? I was involved in the last debate about this sort of thing. I don't imagine it's going to end well. Just figured I'd give fair warning.
Beholderbob 07-22-05, 11:59 AM	Hmm - I had a similiar circumstance, well, somewhat similar. PC is told to surrender, and he does, dropping his weapons. He holds up his hands and is manacled. He gets on his knees. Another PC has refused to yield, so the NPC gets behind the PC and places his short sword to the fellows throat and repeats the command 'surrender'. The 2nd PC draws his missile weapon (which was on his shoulder) and prepares to fire - so I let the NPC auto hit with a critical (the 1st PC didn't resist up to this point and he was caught off guard when the 2nd PC decided to pull out his weapon). Players were upset w/no roll to hit auto crit, but.... no resistance to the NPC moving behind him and placing bladed weapon to his throat - he was not expecting his friend to act like he did, while the NPC was tense and ready for a problem. End result - a nasty bit of damage. Well - does it sound fair to you? Me - I considered making it an auto kill - but I decided to give the PC a chance.... heh! B:88E:B
Dracspero 07-22-05, 12:27 PM	Sounds fair, Beholderbob, because your NPC started paused mid-way through the CDG (sword at throat), and readied an action to complete it. PC 1, having surrendered and allowed himself to be manacled and on his knees, is effectively helpless (unless he has good tumble/escape artist skills). If anything, Player1 should have gotten mad at Player2 for getting his character killed.
Beholderbob 07-22-05, 12:36 PM	Indeed - P1 was (and still is!) unhappy/pizzed off at P2. P1 did not die, though I fully expected him to at the time. Ah well, I'll get him next time. Since he was dropped to 0 HP in 1 hit, I'm going to have him permanently reduced to a whisper, though. Darn impromptu tracheotomies! B:88E:B
Drachasor 07-22-05, 01:07 PM	There are magical items that let you tie someone up quickly (one is in the DMG). When someone is bound they are helpless and can be CdG'ed. Pinning just lets the pinner move the grapple around, or use his opponent's weapon against him. Against low level characters or NPCs getting tied up isn't necessary, but there is no reason it shouldn't be necessary against competent PCs. -Drachasor
Ior 07-22-05, 01:32 PM	IMO the rules have this covered adequately. The wizard is grappled and therefore loses his Dex bonus to AC. The cleric can maintain the grapple and attack with the dagger at -4. I think this accurately reflects the difficulty of actually cutting the target's throat (see Oakspar's post) in one effort while the target is actively struggling to break the grapple/avoid the dagger. Yes, the cleric is much stronger, but that is reflected in his bonuses to melee and grapple. If the cleric orders the wizard to be still, and the wizard complies, I might consider taking off the -4 melee penalty if the cleric decides to attack and wins the initiative.
Beholderbob 07-22-05, 01:54 PM	Assuming a 10 strength, it takes 10.6 rounds to cut the throat of a 10th level wizard with a 10 constitution? A full minute of sawing away - assuming he hits EVERY round. If you assume he hits on a natural 6+, then 14.4 rounds. And that does not kill him, it just drops him to 0 hp. Uh - thick neck. He would have more luck choking the wizard till he drops then cutting the throat, and have an easier (and more successful time) just inflicting a d3 non-lethal damage w/out the -4 to hit. Yikes. B:88E:B
Lord Schpungus 07-22-05, 02:22 PM	As we said, it's not well modeled. In D&D, it's a stupid tactic to use on PCs because they all have death wishes. Surrender is not an option, especially when you have a Stilled, Silent Shocking Grasp memorized for just such an occasion. Or ray of enfeeblement, what have you.
Ior 07-22-05, 02:29 PM	Assuming a 10 strength, it takes 10.6 rounds to cut the throat of a 10th level wizard with a 10 constitution? A full minute of sawing away - assuming he hits EVERY round. If you assume he hits on a natural 6+, then 14.4 rounds. And that does not kill him, it just drops him to 0 hp. Uh - thick neck. He would have more luck choking the wizard till he drops then cutting the throat, and have an easier (and more successful time) just inflicting a d3 non-lethal damage w/out the -4 to hit. Yikes. B:88E:B A 10th level wizard = a heoric veteran of hundreds of battles who is pretty much an expert at avoiding death. This guy has the BAB of a 5th level fighter and better Reflex saves. If you hold his head still, what is controlling his arms from getting in the way? If you hold his arms, how do you keep him from jerking his head and neck out of the way?
Drachasor 07-22-05, 04:18 PM	A 10th level wizard = a heoric veteran of hundreds of battles who is pretty much an expert at avoiding death. This guy has the BAB of a 5th level fighter and better Reflex saves. If you hold his head still, what is controlling his arms from getting in the way? If you hold his arms, how do you keep him from jerking his head and neck out of the way? And if his arms, head, and legs are all held, then he is bound and hence helpless. Under those conditions you can CdG. If he is unconcious, then you can CdG. You shouldn't be able to trivially kill an experience combat veteran in combat in D&D; it's heroic fantasy, not gritty. -Drachasor
SBMC 07-23-05, 10:24 AM	1) Cutting a throat is not as easy as it seems. Ask anyone who has ever done a tracheotamy (throat tube). It is like cutting through a thick cardboard tube (and that is just the throat, the jugular, which you are really after is safely hidden between the throat and a rather hevfty muscle (which cuts like a steak). A quick slash is going to do damage, but it takes some strength to hit gold. 2) The person whose throat you are going to cut is going to move with the blade, minimizing damage. So, what you have is a normal attack, but at some advantage. 1) When you grabbed the guy, you were acting (I'm assuming) in a "Surprise Round" since you were initiating an unexspected attack (though an appropriate Sense Motive check should replace the normal Spot or Listen check that would normally negate a "Surprise Round"). Your grabbing the guy is a grapple, and should be run accordingly (try to get arround a Barbarian like that, and he will just break your wrist). If you succeed, you will enter the square of the guy you are grappling. 2) If everyone else is dumbfounded for the Surprise Round, Initiative is rolled as normal. A quick fellow might win, and get off a quick shot or strike, but since the two of you are in the same square, there is a 50% chance that it will hit them. (PHB page 151 is going to be your friend for these rules). If the person you grabed wins Init, then he might break the grapple and scamper away (you do get an AoO). He might also just turn and engage you in a grapple (since up to that point, you are not grappled). Once you get to act, if you maintain the grapple and are not yourself grappled, you may prepare and hold an attack as a ready action. 3) That gives you the situation you want. You may call for an end to combat as a free action, at which point everyone essentially holds their actions, extending the round. If anyone acts, rather than holding their action, you may make your attack first. Note that Free Actions and Swift actions will trump this, as they would go off before you could react. This is the situation it sounds like your character is currently in. 4) If (when) you make the attack, your foe is grapples and you are not. Thus, they loose their DX bonus to AC (which also negates Dodge bonuses). At the DM's discreation, you probably qualify for a +2 circumstance bonus to your attack as well (essentially, you are invisable to the grappled fellow). Note, that if you were a Rogue (who would end up in this kind of posistion much more consistantly), you would get your Sneak Attack bonus to the foe, since they are denied their DX bonus. 5) So, you pretty much get a free attack off, which you are VERY likely to hit with, but that is about it. If you are a Rogue, you get alot more, but that is because Rogues are just better trained at how to slit a throat (up high, big smilie cut, etc). Note that once you make that attack, the grappled foe really has two choices (turn and grapple you, which usually provokes an AoO OR break the grappel and leave the square, which also usually provokes an AoO). It IS a bad day for that character, but you are not as solid as your probably think, since you are a cleric. If you have multiple attacks, rather than holding one attack, you can also just hack away at their throat. Also, since grappling always stops the DX bonus to AC, it is often a great tactic for Rogues to have no other way to get in sneak attacks, especially against foes who are relying on big weapons or spellcasting. I've seen many Rogues "dive in" against foes who can pummle them in a ST check every time just for the SA bonus. I like this; however it does not address the ability to cut someone’s throat (in other words mimicking the Assassins "death attack" per se'). Somewhere in the PHB or DMG there is a phrase that says "a knife to the eye is still a knife to the eye (or perhaps it was "needle"; don't recall well enough). The post I had previously made tries to address that within the mechanics with noting that it is VERY hard to cut the throat. However after reading on I’ll revise it a bit: Simple Solution (revised): Round 1 The target MUST BE flatfooted (or would be flatfooted if not for a special ability like uncanny... This is the surprise round the attacker already had an action - he is grappling. Round 2 Note: Seeing as the attacker is holding a knife to the targets throat (as in trying to cut it) and not using both hands, body weight, etc he gets a bonus on his grapple check equal to ½ his grapple check modifier (the whole thing) plus his reflex save or ½ their escape artist bonus (The whole thing) in place of the grapple modifier (applying to an escape artists check mind you; not the grapple). This represents that the one being grappled has an easier time escaping given what I stated above and that dexterity/reaction to being grabbed and seeing a blade come forth as (perhaps) your head gets yanked back would play a part (escape artist sort of a thing) given, again what is above (regarding use of the body of the attacker). Roll initiative: Note: The attacker must win the initiative to attempt the CdG Result: Target goes first: Can make an escape artists or grapple check (their choice) with the bonuses noted above. Attacker goes first: 1. Make the normal grapple checks per the rules to continue to maintain the grapple. However the target gets the bonuses noted above. If the target wins this check he is free; or can choose to start grappling normally. He can also make an escape artists check in place of the grapple check to escape. 2. If the attacker wants to attempt a CdG he must - Win a second opposed grapple check and the target gets the same bonuses as before. This represents the attackers ability to hold the targets body in such a position a to be able to expose the throat. 3. Make an attack with the weapon already in hand (only) as normal while grappling (-4 to hit). -If the attack misses then there is no damage and the CdG attempt failed and cannot be attempted again. -If the attack succeeds the attacker must then make a second opposed grapple check (the defender still gets all those bonuses above). This represents the attackers ability to actually aim the weapon, while grappling, well enough to hit a particular small target. If the attacker looses then normal damage is done and the CdG attempt failed and cannot be attempted again. If the attacker succeeds then the normal CdG rules apply here. At any time if another person enters the grapple, or the attacker is damaged by anyone other than the target the attempt fails. This can only be attempted the round after the surprise round (and indeed there must be a surprise round) I think that this represents that someone must be quite skilled at grappling and have a solid BAB to execute such a maneuver. It also represents the ability for a high level character to easily cut the throat of a low level character (as it should be) and also does not take away from other classes special abilities
Ior 07-23-05, 12:43 PM	Simple Solution (revised): *snip* It also represents the ability for a high level character to easily cut the throat of a low level character (as it should be) and also does not take away from other classes special abilities Sorry, but your "simple solution" was making my head ache trying to read it all. ;) The game mechanics already make it highly likely that a high level character (ie a cleric with 24 Str) will kill a low-level character in this situation. What are this cleric's chances to hit a low-level wizard that is robbed of his Dex bonus, even with the -4 penalty? Pretty much automatic. And what kind of damage is he going to do? 9 points, on average, with a normal dagger (which he probably is not using). That's enough to kill any first or second level wizard, and possibly even a third or fourth. Higher level than that, and it is not implausible that the wizard is competent enough in combat to stay alive for at least a round or two. I think movies and tv have given everyone an wrong impression of how dangerous this situation is. It is Hollywood convention that once the villain has a knife at your throat, you have to freeze in terror and do what he says. There's no question that the victim will be seriously hurt in this situation if he struggles, but instant death is another thing entirely.
Twilight_Wanderer 07-23-05, 01:50 PM	I think the point is being missed here. The fact of the matter is your the DM, if you have an npc grab a character from behind with a knife, you need to consider what you want to happen. Do you want a PC to die here, like this without any chance to survive? If you do, then make it happen and deal with an upset player. However there are several things that you need to consider when this happens. A) Did you make a move silently check opposed to a listen check when he was sneaking up on the pc? B) Would a reflex save been appropriate here, maybe as the player felt the Npc grab him? C) What do you want the outcome of this to be? Maybe I am wrong in my way of thinking, but as I see it, the rule books and everything are a set of guidelines, and are not set in stone. Rules can be bent and broken, you are the DM, it is up to you to decide what goes, and what doesn't, what rules should be allowed to bent and what shouldn't be. In this case you need to consider your plots and such. I allow certain Npcs to be assassinated in a similiar fashion by my PCs, if they succeed in a move silently checks with a set DC. I will allow my PCs to attempt an assassination on ANY npc, however the DC will be set high, or I'll simply not allow them to succeed, and though that is deceptive, there is two reasons I do this. 1. To prevent any "he suddenly turns around" which is just bad for story if they didn't hear you or such, or without a cause, this can be altered. 2. To prevent the disruption of freedom I attempt to give my PCs. I beleive that they can touch anything, do anything, and go anywhere they want as long as they accept the consequences of their actions, though I suppose that it is all up to the DM. Anyways, its entirely up to you to decide what happens in this case, just remember that when facing problems such as this one.
Drachasor 07-23-05, 02:35 PM	I think movies and tv have given everyone an wrong impression of how dangerous this situation is. It is Hollywood convention that once the villain has a knife at your throat, you have to freeze in terror and do what he says. There's no question that the victim will be seriously hurt in this situation if he struggles, but instant death is another thing entirely. In fact it is also a Hollywood convention that the "heroes" can get out of such a situation thanks to their awesome skills. Usually this can be done without being hurt at all. Personally PCs are more like heroes than helpless victims, and I think everyone should be able to agree there. As for High Level vs. Low Level, well that high level guy is going to get perhaps 3 attacks on a low level, each doing something like 10+ damage (magic weapon, strength, perhaps sneak, etc), and all having a good chance of hitting, so that's 20-30 damage easy. That's enough to take care of most low level opponents. Lastly, D&D is not trying to be realistic. It is Heroic Fantasy, and the gritty fantasy is best handled by other systems. Heroes can get out of this sort of trouble or avoid it altogether without too much trouble. It makes perfect sense that you should have to tie up a hero to be able to take them out this way when they are concious. -Drachasor
Crox 07-23-05, 07:46 PM	Well, I think that putting a knife to somebody's throat is a CdG already ... but it is a delay CdG. So if some nasty npc can make coupe de grace to one of my pc, then, I think, I can rule that he only put the knife to his throat but not slicing it yet, actually readying this action. IMO: no actions or combinations of actions cannot let you put a knife to somebodies throat until your target is helpless.
SBMC 07-24-05, 03:34 PM	Sorry, but your "simple solution" was making my head ache trying to read it all. ;) The game mechanics already make it highly likely that a high level character (ie a cleric with 24 Str) will kill a low-level character in this situation. What are this cleric's chances to hit a low-level wizard that is robbed of his Dex bonus, even with the -4 penalty? Pretty much automatic. And what kind of damage is he going to do? 9 points, on average, with a normal dagger (which he probably is not using). That's enough to kill any first or second level wizard, and possibly even a third or fourth. Higher level than that, and it is not implausible that the wizard is competent enough in combat to stay alive for at least a round or two. I think movies and tv have given everyone an wrong impression of how dangerous this situation is. It is Hollywood convention that once the villain has a knife at your throat, you have to freeze in terror and do what he says. There's no question that the victim will be seriously hurt in this situation if he struggles, but instant death is another thing entirely. The unltimate point being - a 5th level assassin can do this but a 20th level "anyone else" can't? What I had posted was simply a process to allow for it. Certainly you could do things such as give the victim the opportunity to make a reflex save with disgustingly high modifiers based upon character level; since it is hard to cut someones throat. But the bottom line is that regardless of "how hard" it is to do this; I sneak up on you fast, grab your head and draw a razor sharp blade accross your jugular - your going to die. I ahd various logics for each step as well as lots of explanations on why each thing was there. If you run the numbers it ultimatly would lead one to see that a with a martial character it would be almost impossible to slit their thraot - as it should be given they are the ones used to fighting, racting etc. Your example regarding the wizxard being able to dodge such things - really? That is why they have d4's to begin with; because they can't. Or at least no where near as good as a fighter or like character. Bottom line non warriors are and shoulm be easier to kill. Your argument hjinges on making them equal which in now way should they be.
Willie the Duck 07-24-05, 08:57 PM	I think the point is being missed here. The fact of the matter is your the DM, if you have an npc grab a character from behind with a knife, you need to consider what you want to happen. Do you want a PC to die here, like this without any chance to survive? If you do, then make it happen and deal with an upset player. However there are several things that you need to consider when this happens. Thank you. That's the point I was trying to make. In the movies, there is always some convenient distraction that allows the captive to get out of the situation. In the real world, situations like this tend to become hostage negotiations (or other things that just don't work well in D&D) (and yes, Ior, you are right, you can survive having someone try to slit your throat). Neither of these solutions really represent the high adventure D&D tries to capture.
JoeX 07-25-05, 08:12 AM	The unltimate point being - a 5th level assassin can do this but a 20th level "anyone else" can't? . Yes Assasin have a unique SUPERNATURAL ability to do that Bottom line non warriors are and shoulm be easier to kill. Yes in fact they use d4 to roll hit-point.
Rumple_Cragstan 07-25-05, 08:48 AM	The unltimate point being - a 5th level assassin can do this but a 20th level "anyone else" can't? you must remember that those 5 levels of assassin stack with whatever levels they had before the PrC. And scince most PrCs require at least 7th to take, then it boosts up to 12. And yeah, this sounds about right. Hell, a 1st level rogue gets sneak damage, while every other core class in the game dosn't EVER get it. By the time a fighter hits 20th should it 'be simple for him to hit vital areas' and thus he gets sneak attack too? Hell No! Thats what MULTICLASSING was made for. I sneak up on you fast, grab your head and draw a razor sharp blade accross your jugular - your going to die. I had various logics for each step as well as lots of explanations on why each thing was there. Unless you where doing this to an unarmored, untrained civilian, this shouldn't work. Most suits of armor had something covering those vital areas (thats kinda the point of armor - to protect you) so it would be really hard to get it. And as well, it might be easy to pick out where the jugular is when you're looking at a person. When you come up behind them and you can't see precicely where your blade is going, you've got a sicnificantly smaller chance of hitting such a vital vein. Put these two facts together and you've been pwn'd. Your example regarding the wizxard being able to dodge such things - really? That is why they have d4's to begin with; because they can't. Or at least no where near as good as a fighter or like character. Bottom line: non-warriors are, and should be, easier to kill. Your argument hinges on making them equal which in no way should they be. The hell? What the **** does HP have to do with how easy a person is to hit? Thats what AC is for you dolt! And spellcasters can juice thier ACs up WAY higher than most fighters could touch! And what do you mean that non-warriors are easier to kill!? Wizards are not equal to fighters? I might agree with that, but you seem to be putting fighters in the MORE powerful end of the scale. Have you ever played past level 5? Once an arcane spellcaster gets more than a few level 2 spells and 1 or 2 level 3 spells per day, fighters become little more than bodyguards.
cperkins 07-25-05, 08:53 AM	Ok but here's the thing: the cleric has a 24 str and is a war cleric. He's got the 8 str wizard grabbed brom behind and has the dagger to his throat. The wizard isnt going anywhere. I underastand it works better in real life situations, but I really think that A: If a character manages to come up from behind and make a touch attack roll to grab the character, and then an opposed strength (not grapple) check to see if he holds, then the character that was grabbed is helpless. Thats my opinion and probably what im gonna rule. As a DM I avoid doing things to players that I wouldn't want done to me as a player (and visa versa). If you'd be willing to accept that situation (being helpless after one touch attack and an opposed STR roll) happening to your character, then feel free to inflict it on your players.
Manyfist 07-25-05, 09:02 AM	Why not just snap the Wizards neck, it be easier than trying to Cut his throat. He comes up behind has the knife to the guys throat, says his BBEG mojo, then in a twist of events he quickly snaps the Wizards head. Of course the wizard is intitled to a Fort save v. Instant Death, so yeah. :D
LosGunD 07-25-05, 10:53 AM	I would say that if they have DR or magical protection then it would be an attack at a high damage bonus (maybe as much as 20d6). Otherwise they would be helpless.
mvincent 07-25-05, 12:13 PM	This has come up before. It's normally handled as a pin then ready an action, however this still does not grant a CdG. A more effective method (while still following RAW), might be: 1) Grapple (first attack action) 2) Pin (second attack action) 3) Tell the pinned opponent to quit struggling or he'll get hurt (free action) 4) Warning stab if he keeps struggling (third attack action, if you have the BAB for it) 5) If/when the opponent quits struggling, he can be considered helpless. Now just keep delaying until you want/need to make the CdG. Note: it appears that you cannot 'ready' a CdG because it is a full-round action, however most characters will assume that you have an action readied even when you are merely delaying. Alternately, if you've already done enough damage to the opponent to bring him to near zero hit points, a readied normal attack might indeed be a lethal threat.
meatpuppet 07-25-05, 12:32 PM	2) Pin (second attack action) 3) Tell the pinned opponent to quit struggling or he'll get hurt (free action) 4) Warning stab if he keeps struggling (third attack action, if you have the BAB for it) 5) If/when the opponent quits struggling, he can be considered helpless. Now just keep delaying until you want/need to make the CdG. It won't work with a pin. From the SRD: If You’re Pinning an Opponent... You can’t draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character)... Maybe, it could be done with just a hold...
Ior 07-25-05, 01:10 PM	Maybe I am wrong in my way of thinking, but as I see it, the rule books and everything are a set of guidelines, and are not set in stone. Rules can be bent and broken, you are the DM, it is up to you to decide what goes, and what doesn't, what rules should be allowed to bent and what shouldn't be. I agree with most of what you say, but bending and breaking "laws of physics" rules (absent some kind of magic effect) like the rules of combat is inviting a player revolt. How are players to decide how to act if they can't count on the rules of the game being honoured? I agree that the DM is the ultimate arbiter of what is allowable, but changing rules as you go takes the gamesmanship out of the game.
mvincent 07-25-05, 01:37 PM	It won't work with a pin. Maybe, it could be done with just a hold...Excellent point. Thank you. Yes, I suppose you could convince someone to quit struggling using only a grapple instead of a pin. This actually makes it a bit simpler.
Molu Kai 07-25-05, 01:42 PM	RAW, I don't think you can get a dagger to a character's throat unless they are not resisting...and almost any PC out there will resist. The type of people that will not resist are low level (especially NPCs), where a single dagger thrust could kill them anyway. If you decide to houserule a situation where a villain surprises a PC, grapples (putting a knife to his throat) and then CdGs him, you have to be very careful...because, if I where a PC in your game, I would subsequently optimize this tactic and kill as many of your baddies as I could with it.
Ior 07-25-05, 01:49 PM	The unltimate point being - a 5th level assassin can do this but a 20th level "anyone else" can't? A 5th level assassin has special training that even a 20th level character of another class doesn't have. All this gains the assassin, however, is the ability to cause instant death at a lower level. A 20th level character is going to get multiple attacks, at high bonuses to hit and damage, (see Drachasor's post) and thereby accomplish the same thing...the death of the lower level character in one round. What I had posted was simply a process to allow for it. Certainly you could do things such as give the victim the opportunity to make a reflex save with disgustingly high modifiers based upon character level; since it is hard to cut someones throat. If we are going to start using Reflex saves to avoid attacks, then I am going to have a lot of players asking to make a Reflex save every time an orc swings an axe. This is not an appropriate use of Reflex saves, IMO. But the bottom line is that regardless of "how hard" it is to do this; I sneak up on you fast, grab your head and draw a razor sharp blade accross your jugular - your going to die. I ahd various logics for each step as well as lots of explanations on why each thing was there. And I am pointing out that your logic is faulty in this regard. Bottom line, if you snuck up behind me, grabbed my head and drew a razor blade across my throat, you would certainly hurt me quite seriously but you would be unlikely to hit my jugular and unlikely to immediately kill me. This is because you are not trained in how to do this, and it's harder than Hollywood makes it look. If you run the numbers it ultimatly would lead one to see that a with a martial character it would be almost impossible to slit their thraot - as it should be given they are the ones used to fighting, racting etc. Your example regarding the wizxard being able to dodge such things - really? That is why they have d4's to begin with; because they can't. Or at least no where near as good as a fighter or like character. Bottom line non warriors are and shoulm be easier to kill. Your argument hjinges on making them equal which in now way should they be. At no time did I say that a wizard or other non-martial character should be as hard to kill as a fighter of the same level. What I did say was that a high wizard is as hard to kill as a fighter of much lower level, which is still pretty hard to kill. So yes, a high-level wizard is easIER to kill than an equal-level fighter, but not still not easy to kill with one attack.
Keenath 07-25-05, 02:28 PM	Why should this be a grapple at all? You aren't really grappling in the sense of wrestling. You're possibly grabbing some part of the target's body, but that's flavor text -- it's really just a readied attack. Obviously the target is flatfooted, unaware of the attacker's threat. The attacker readies an action to strike if the target is about to act, giving some warning to the target to stay still. The target may choose to act or not. If he acts, the readied action occurs first, so the target is still flatfooted against it. If the attack doesn't kill the target, that's because you tried to neck-cut a hero instead of some random NPC. Get over it. This is a difficult technique to use against a skilled warrior, which all PCs are. The technique is only truly useful against low level NPCs, with their extremely low health, or for very low-level PCs (same reason), or when used by a rogue. That's the real point -- a rogue gets to use his sneak attack dice because the target is still flatfooted when his readied action goes off. I don't think it needs to be any more complex than that -- flatfootedness plus a readied action. After all, in Hollywood, how often does somebody try this on a hero? Very rarely, and when they do, it's instantly foiled! If you try to grab Rambo around the neck, you get hucked over his shoulder or take an elbow to the stomach! The neck-grab technique is almost universally used on girlfriends, minor functionaries (like clerks or acolytes), or, rarely, sidekicks. If you really feel like you need it to be more complicated, make it a grapple followed by a readied action -- but then you're adding a requirement that the attacker win initiative against his target. That isn't entirely out of line, since you're probably talking about a heroic-class PC winning initiative against a normal person (Init +1 at best).
SBMC 07-25-05, 10:38 PM	you must remember that those 5 levels of assassin stack with whatever levels they had before the PrC. And scince most PrCs require at least 7th to take, then it boosts up to 12. And yeah, this sounds about right. Hell, a 1st level rogue gets sneak damage, while every other core class in the game dosn't EVER get it. By the time a fighter hits 20th should it 'be simple for him to hit vital areas' and thus he gets sneak attack too? Hell No! Thats what MULTICLASSING was made for. Unless you where doing this to an unarmored, untrained civilian, this shouldn't work. Most suits of armor had something covering those vital areas (thats kinda the point of armor - to protect you) so it would be really hard to get it. And as well, it might be easy to pick out where the jugular is when you're looking at a person. When you come up behind them and you can't see precicely where your blade is going, you've got a sicnificantly smaller chance of hitting such a vital vein. Put these two facts together and you've been pwn'd. The hell? What the **** does HP have to do with how easy a person is to hit? Thats what AC is for you dolt! And spellcasters can juice thier ACs up WAY higher than most fighters could touch! And what do you mean that non-warriors are easier to kill!? Wizards are not equal to fighters? I might agree with that, but you seem to be putting fighters in the MORE powerful end of the scale. Have you ever played past level 5? Once an arcane spellcaster gets more than a few level 2 spells and 1 or 2 level 3 spells per day, fighters become little more than bodyguards. HP = ability to stay alive spellcasters can juice thier ACs: Yet another situation statement on the boards; as in spellcasters always have this up and running and can...they don't and can't. Played past 5th level: Yes; Even a 15th level caster can be killed easier than a 15th level fighter. I've done it - so have many others. Sure, sure "if" this and "if" that "no way it would happen". Try taking the "ifs" on the fighter's side for a change. Have you ever actually played a fighter - if you feel this way then clearly you were not very good at it - so play the caster. But that is an argument that has always been there and will never be solved. Dolt: Well this sort of leads to the fact that you have run out of sustanance and have to get personal. How was that 8th grade english exam anyway? :)
SBMC 07-25-05, 10:44 PM	After reading the rest of the posts here I am seeing the main point now - which honestly shoudl be obvious (even though it was nto to me) ultimatly PC's are the best of the best and really don't get caught in such situations -by default given the rules (unless it is an assassin attacking them)
Oakspar77777 07-27-05, 01:34 AM	Your Wizard against Fighter comment is not 100% true. No matter how many Fighters you play, once you get out of early levels, Wizard > Fighter. HOWEVER, this is in the cosmic balance. Wiz/Sorc > Fighter/Barb > Rogue > Wiz/Sorc A Rogue can usually take out a Wiz, because their abilities are particularly useful against the Wiz (being mundane, not magical), allowing for a single decisive strike (Sneak Attack) which can usually pretty much neutralize your average Wiz/Sorc (but would only anger the Fighter type, who would turn arround and smash the puny Rogue). A Wizard kills the Fighter/Barb will a single Will save spell. That, and the Wizards superior defences (Greater Invisible, Flying, and casting Silent Summon Monster spells, for example) will win over the brute. Clerics, of course, rule all, as do Druids. Monks can be effictive against Wizards (good saves) and Fighters (disarm), but Rogues usually school them (grapling denies DX bonus to AC, and Daggers are light). The reliance on too many stats, however, tends to make even favorable matchups a coin flip. They just have more options to coin flip rather than auto wins. Paladins and Rogues could almost be decent anti-Wizards, but the saves and sneaking don't match with what you get from Monks and Rogue (grappling to stop spellcasting, or super sneak attacks to neutralize in one round). The Bard? Well he is everyone's little pretty jail cell girlfriend getting passed arround the campfire like a clay jug.