blinded during a charge ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

blinded during a charge ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Elric Lornhood
08-31-06, 07:47 PM Say a half orc brb charges my monk from 20' away, but I've readied an action to attack him as soon as he's within reach. Once he finishes the movement portion of the charge, I hit him with my readied attack which succeeds in temporarily blinding him(special maneuver). Rule says you can't charge while blind, but he has already done half of it, so...
1)If he would then succeed at the 50% miss chance when he finishes his turn with his attack, should he still get the +2 attack bonus for charging, or do you think the blindness negates it?
2)If he charged from farther than his base move and this same thing happened, should he even get the attack, or would the blindness negate the rest of the charge (i.e. the attack) and he will have in effect been involuntarily limited to a double move (just not necessarily to max distance)?
silvergamgee
08-31-06, 08:08 PM He would get his attack at you with a 50% miss chance (he knows where you are since you hit him). He would take standard penalties for being blind but the +2 bonus for charging is due to the momentum and it would hold.

His AC would be horrible and you'd probably rip him apart with power attacks the next round (him being blinded with the added -2 AC penalty for his charge).
mvincent
08-31-06, 08:17 PM Since his movement has already been completed I would still allow him to attack with the miss chance. If you had blinded him while he was still moving, I would rule otherwise.
Elric Lornhood
08-31-06, 09:02 PM So what if I used my 5' step I still get for a readied action to move straight at him when he was 10' away, then attack, would that ruin it+?
Or
If I used it to move 5' straight backward so that there is an extra space between us that costs him double to move, therefore slowing him and negating the charge?
Would you still allow him to know what space I was in if I moved backward 5'? Listen DC or not needed?
Can I move silently with the 5' step? I'd guess no.
Dheran
08-31-06, 10:35 PM If I used it to move 5' straight backward so that there is an extra space between us that costs him double to move, therefore slowing him and negating the charge?
Would you still allow him to know what space I was in if I moved backward 5'? Listen DC or not needed?
Can I move silently with the 5' step?
You can ready an action to include a 5' step. If that action blinds the charger, they'll charge blindly forward until they can attack you, if that's possible. If you Move Silently as part of your 5' step and exceed their Listen check, they'll have to guess which square you're in. If you're a Monk who's trained with a Sparring Dummy of the Master you can make a ten foot step intead of a five foot step, and be out of line of the charge and thus impossible to hit so their charge will end immediately.
Elric Lornhood
09-01-06, 12:36 AM I didn't think you could charge if your movement is slowed in any way.
Regardless, perhaps I could move to the side or back on a diagonal, skewing the direct line he needs to charge me and negating it that way.
Damionte
09-01-06, 05:16 AM Yes if you take a 5 foot step diaganolayy away from him you'll foil his charge. This would be true rather he was blind or not.

So if you correctly guess that he's going to charge you you could declare that your readying an action to attack him then step diagonally away if he comes within your threatened space.

As long as he doesn't have the baility to change direction during a charge you'll be ok. If he has the baility to change direction (and he's not blinded by your attack) he'll sill be able to come get you after you step away. Assuming he has neough movement left to do so.
Kimokeo
09-01-06, 09:43 AM I'd give the orc and anyone else in this predicament to choose to continue the action or choose something else.

If a character is running to jump a gorge and my enemy spellcaster blinds them, they probably would like to stop before attempting the jump.

I think the orc, if blinded during the charge, may reconsider the action - especially if he has companions to cover him as he sends his job application in to be a stunt double for one of the mice in Shrek 3.
boozerker
09-01-06, 11:56 AM How about if you blind the charger, and step backwards diagonally, would you get an AoO triggered in your favor? EDIT -- Nevermind, charging doesn't provoke AoOs.

If you're a Monk who's trained with a Sparring Dummy of the Master...
Is that real?

I'd give the orc and anyone else in this predicament to choose to continue the action or choose something else.

If a character is running to jump a gorge and my enemy spellcaster blinds them, they probably would like to stop before attempting the jump.
Or maybe a Reflex save DC 10 to slide to a halt, especially if charging on loose dirt. Give a leeway of 5 feet after you make the decision, and on successful save you stop and on failure you continue 5 feet.
mvincent
09-01-06, 12:16 PM Yes if you take a 5 foot step diaganolayy away from him you'll foil his charge. This would be true rather he was blind or not.That may not be correct. This was debated awhile ago. While some DM's might think the tactic was cheesy (and so disallow it), I personally thought it was a great idea (and had advocated it). However, it was pointed out to me that the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) say:
"you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent"
"if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge."

... i.e. they don't actually say here that you have to move in a straight line, even though this is almost always the case (assuming your opponent doesn't move, that is). If your opponent moves to the side and you still have movement left, the rules don't seem to technically disallow you moving to reach him.
Damionte
09-01-06, 01:11 PM The problem here isn't with the charge it's with the rules about timing.

if he redies his action for the right moment his entire action interupts and is completed before the charge is done.

It's like playing magic the gathering and playing an instant card.

You specify that your action take place as soon as he comes into range before he can swing.

As soon as he enters a square youu threaten you do your entire move. Including your 5 foot step diagonally. This move puts you 10 feet away from his charge line. So unless he has reach he won't be able to reach you while charging. Unless he has the ability through feats of his own to change direction during a charge.

Granted if he had reach you would not have been able to pull off the move as he would be able to hit you before he got into an area you threaten.
Elric Lornhood
09-01-06, 01:15 PM Even if the positioning would not deny the charge, that extra 5feet of space would then cost double because of the blindness, and you can not charge if your movement is hampered in any way, right? So while he could continue moving if he had 10' of move left, he could not continue the charge as I see it. If that extra space which counts as 10' takes him past his base move, he would not even be allowed an attack, since he would have went farther than a single move, though not a full double move

This will be a one on one fight, btw.
Damionte
09-01-06, 02:32 PM Prety much. It's more of the fact that he wouldn't be able to find you to attack you if he were blind and you moved away.

The reduced movement is another good one. Though I would not consider it hampered. I'd have to look up the wording for the effects of blindness to be sure. I'm not in a look thing up mood at the moment. :p
Kimokeo
09-01-06, 03:38 PM If someone is readying an action to react if you charge, can you sense motive that? It would be nice to sense they're waiting for me to charge, so instead I'm going to throw an axe. Since they're readied action is based on a specific action, my axe throwing makes them continue to wait...?
Tony Vargas
09-01-06, 04:46 PM Typically, a character gets to perform a move action, and still ready, so someone acts, but only performs a move or some free actions, then chances are they could be readied. If you're past the initial round of combat, and someone doesn't act at all when his initiative comes up, he could be readying or delaying.

That's just what you know from the initiative sequence.

Reasonably, if someone readies, it can be pretty obvious - drawing back a bow, and pointing it at the wizard, waiting for him to cast, or planting a spear firmly and angling it towards someone ho might charge. Even if it could be concealed or might not be obvious, it'd be fair to call for a Bluff Check, and bluff checks take at least a round for 'general interaction' or a standard action to feint or create a distraction. None of that describes hiding a readied action, but, as a DM, I might rule that it costs the move action - either you bluff that you're flat-footed or delayinig (taking no free actions either), or you bluff that you took a standard or two move actions (maybe by feigning an attack).
Elric Lornhood
09-01-06, 07:01 PM So there is a question of whether being blinded is considered hampered movement then, for the purposes of charging at least? True enough, the charge part of PHB combat chapter gives examples like difficult terrain, but not slowed by being blinded. Yet I don't see how you can charge if your slowed to half speed since the charge bonus is all about momentum to begin with.
Also, am I right to assume one can not take a 5' step while blinded since the square would cost 10"?
Dheran
09-02-06, 05:42 AM Also, am I right to assume one can not take a 5' step while blinded since the square would cost 10"? That's correct. A 5' step is prohibited when your movement is hampered either by difficult terrain or by darkness. Being blinded makes it dark for you.

However, we're talking about what happens when a charging character is blinded. The rules for charging require that you have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn. They don't say anything about the charge ending if you lose your sight, although conceivably the double movement cost for blindness could be considered a movement hindrance:
nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles) Blindness (or darkness) is mentioned explicitly along with difficult terrain for the 5' step prohibition, but for charging vision is only explicitly required at the start.

If you go with the only-at-start requirement for sight, then as long as the charger still has at least 10' available to their charging distance for the round they should be able to continue charging blindly 5' forward.
Damionte
09-02-06, 09:08 AM I agree. If you blinded someone while they were charging. i'd give them 5 more feet of movement ahead if they like as a result of thier "OMG what the hell just happened reaction." Assuming they were already charging that far.

In this particular example the character was not oging to charge any futher than he got when he was blinbded so no I wouldn't let him go anay further.

Let's say the Mon kin question was using Cometary Collision to intercept the charger. Had hold the line and hit the charger as he went past. I'd give the charger his 5 more feet of movement then he'd have to stop. If his target happened to still be in the square he was aiming at and he was in reach I'd still give him his swing with the charge benifits, but with the 50% miss chance for being blind.

If he didn't make it to his initial target though he'd be out of luck.
Elric Lornhood
09-02-06, 02:25 PM Ok, so I can see how you would say that, though blind, his momentum would still give him that extra 5' if he heard you move, which would surely be a mighty low DC. I agree with that.
If, instead, I readied to attack as he attacked me, my attack would go off just before his, and technically his movement for the charge would be complete and he couldn't take another 5' foot step that round. Right?
Changing my ready-and-a-step trigger to his attack rather than his arrival in front of me would then foil the charge attack by waiting until his movement was finished.
Right?

Quote:>>"That's correct. A 5' step is prohibited when your movement is hampered either by difficult terrain or by darkness. Being blinded makes it dark for you.

However, we're talking about what happens when a charging character is blinded."<<

I realize that wasn't my original question, but that question also deals with part of my tactics for this fight. So I thought I'd throw it here rather than a new thread for a more simple question.
Dark1ord
09-02-06, 02:37 PM I have some comments - not too off-topic I hope. ;)
they [the rules] don't actually say here that you have to move in a straight line, even though this is almost always the case (assuming your opponent doesn't move, that is). If your opponent moves to the side and you still have movement left, the rules don't seem to technically disallow you moving to reach him.the rules also say: "You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent" - emphasis mine. I'd say that "directly" would mean the same as "in a straight line". the pictures used in describing a charge certainly show that...

as for readying a 5-foot step, there's some relevant text: "You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round" - this seems to indicate that you can't ready a 5-foot step in itself, but that you have to use it in conjunction with other actions: "You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action" - whether there's an attack of opportunity or not now depends on the action readied...
Dheran
09-03-06, 08:36 AM this seems to indicate that you can't ready a 5-foot step in itself, but that you have to use it in conjunction with other actions: "You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action" Well, that's a trivial problem to solve. You can ready a free action to raise one eyebrow, and take the 5' step along with that readied action. There are an infinite number of trivial free actions you can do that won't provoke an AoO by themselves.
Dark1ord
09-03-06, 02:19 PM yes of course. I wasn't making it a problem, I was just trying to describe the mechanics.

raising an eyebrow is funny. enemy comes charging - you raise your eyebrow - and step out of harm's way... coolness factor? pretty high, hehe. :)

incidentally, the silliness factor is probably equally high. ;)
Damionte
09-03-06, 11:13 PM If, instead, I readied to attack as he attacked me, my attack would go off just before his, and technically his movement for the charge would be complete and he couldn't take another 5' foot step that round. Right?
Changing my ready-and-a-step trigger to his attack rather than his arrival in front of me would then foil the charge attack by waiting until his movement was finished.
Right?

I soppse so.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elric Lornhood 08-31-06, 07:47 PM	Say a half orc brb charges my monk from 20' away, but I've readied an action to attack him as soon as he's within reach. Once he finishes the movement portion of the charge, I hit him with my readied attack which succeeds in temporarily blinding him(special maneuver). Rule says you can't charge while blind, but he has already done half of it, so... 1)If he would then succeed at the 50% miss chance when he finishes his turn with his attack, should he still get the +2 attack bonus for charging, or do you think the blindness negates it? 2)If he charged from farther than his base move and this same thing happened, should he even get the attack, or would the blindness negate the rest of the charge (i.e. the attack) and he will have in effect been involuntarily limited to a double move (just not necessarily to max distance)?
silvergamgee 08-31-06, 08:08 PM	He would get his attack at you with a 50% miss chance (he knows where you are since you hit him). He would take standard penalties for being blind but the +2 bonus for charging is due to the momentum and it would hold. His AC would be horrible and you'd probably rip him apart with power attacks the next round (him being blinded with the added -2 AC penalty for his charge).
mvincent 08-31-06, 08:17 PM	Since his movement has already been completed I would still allow him to attack with the miss chance. If you had blinded him while he was still moving, I would rule otherwise.
Elric Lornhood 08-31-06, 09:02 PM	So what if I used my 5' step I still get for a readied action to move straight at him when he was 10' away, then attack, would that ruin it+? Or If I used it to move 5' straight backward so that there is an extra space between us that costs him double to move, therefore slowing him and negating the charge? Would you still allow him to know what space I was in if I moved backward 5'? Listen DC or not needed? Can I move silently with the 5' step? I'd guess no.
Dheran 08-31-06, 10:35 PM	If I used it to move 5' straight backward so that there is an extra space between us that costs him double to move, therefore slowing him and negating the charge? Would you still allow him to know what space I was in if I moved backward 5'? Listen DC or not needed? Can I move silently with the 5' step? You can ready an action to include a 5' step. If that action blinds the charger, they'll charge blindly forward until they can attack you, if that's possible. If you Move Silently as part of your 5' step and exceed their Listen check, they'll have to guess which square you're in. If you're a Monk who's trained with a Sparring Dummy of the Master you can make a ten foot step intead of a five foot step, and be out of line of the charge and thus impossible to hit so their charge will end immediately.
Elric Lornhood 09-01-06, 12:36 AM	I didn't think you could charge if your movement is slowed in any way. Regardless, perhaps I could move to the side or back on a diagonal, skewing the direct line he needs to charge me and negating it that way.
Damionte 09-01-06, 05:16 AM	Yes if you take a 5 foot step diaganolayy away from him you'll foil his charge. This would be true rather he was blind or not. So if you correctly guess that he's going to charge you you could declare that your readying an action to attack him then step diagonally away if he comes within your threatened space. As long as he doesn't have the baility to change direction during a charge you'll be ok. If he has the baility to change direction (and he's not blinded by your attack) he'll sill be able to come get you after you step away. Assuming he has neough movement left to do so.
Kimokeo 09-01-06, 09:43 AM	I'd give the orc and anyone else in this predicament to choose to continue the action or choose something else. If a character is running to jump a gorge and my enemy spellcaster blinds them, they probably would like to stop before attempting the jump. I think the orc, if blinded during the charge, may reconsider the action - especially if he has companions to cover him as he sends his job application in to be a stunt double for one of the mice in Shrek 3.
boozerker 09-01-06, 11:56 AM	How about if you blind the charger, and step backwards diagonally, would you get an AoO triggered in your favor? EDIT -- Nevermind, charging doesn't provoke AoOs. If you're a Monk who's trained with a Sparring Dummy of the Master... Is that real? I'd give the orc and anyone else in this predicament to choose to continue the action or choose something else. If a character is running to jump a gorge and my enemy spellcaster blinds them, they probably would like to stop before attempting the jump. Or maybe a Reflex save DC 10 to slide to a halt, especially if charging on loose dirt. Give a leeway of 5 feet after you make the decision, and on successful save you stop and on failure you continue 5 feet.
mvincent 09-01-06, 12:16 PM	Yes if you take a 5 foot step diaganolayy away from him you'll foil his charge. This would be true rather he was blind or not.That may not be correct. This was debated awhile ago. While some DM's might think the tactic was cheesy (and so disallow it), I personally thought it was a great idea (and had advocated it). However, it was pointed out to me that the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) say: "you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent" "if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge." ... i.e. they don't actually say here that you have to move in a straight line, even though this is almost always the case (assuming your opponent doesn't move, that is). If your opponent moves to the side and you still have movement left, the rules don't seem to technically disallow you moving to reach him.
Damionte 09-01-06, 01:11 PM	The problem here isn't with the charge it's with the rules about timing. if he redies his action for the right moment his entire action interupts and is completed before the charge is done. It's like playing magic the gathering and playing an instant card. You specify that your action take place as soon as he comes into range before he can swing. As soon as he enters a square youu threaten you do your entire move. Including your 5 foot step diagonally. This move puts you 10 feet away from his charge line. So unless he has reach he won't be able to reach you while charging. Unless he has the ability through feats of his own to change direction during a charge. Granted if he had reach you would not have been able to pull off the move as he would be able to hit you before he got into an area you threaten.
Elric Lornhood 09-01-06, 01:15 PM	Even if the positioning would not deny the charge, that extra 5feet of space would then cost double because of the blindness, and you can not charge if your movement is hampered in any way, right? So while he could continue moving if he had 10' of move left, he could not continue the charge as I see it. If that extra space which counts as 10' takes him past his base move, he would not even be allowed an attack, since he would have went farther than a single move, though not a full double move This will be a one on one fight, btw.
Damionte 09-01-06, 02:32 PM	Prety much. It's more of the fact that he wouldn't be able to find you to attack you if he were blind and you moved away. The reduced movement is another good one. Though I would not consider it hampered. I'd have to look up the wording for the effects of blindness to be sure. I'm not in a look thing up mood at the moment. :p
Kimokeo 09-01-06, 03:38 PM	If someone is readying an action to react if you charge, can you sense motive that? It would be nice to sense they're waiting for me to charge, so instead I'm going to throw an axe. Since they're readied action is based on a specific action, my axe throwing makes them continue to wait...?
Tony Vargas 09-01-06, 04:46 PM	Typically, a character gets to perform a move action, and still ready, so someone acts, but only performs a move or some free actions, then chances are they could be readied. If you're past the initial round of combat, and someone doesn't act at all when his initiative comes up, he could be readying or delaying. That's just what you know from the initiative sequence. Reasonably, if someone readies, it can be pretty obvious - drawing back a bow, and pointing it at the wizard, waiting for him to cast, or planting a spear firmly and angling it towards someone ho might charge. Even if it could be concealed or might not be obvious, it'd be fair to call for a Bluff Check, and bluff checks take at least a round for 'general interaction' or a standard action to feint or create a distraction. None of that describes hiding a readied action, but, as a DM, I might rule that it costs the move action - either you bluff that you're flat-footed or delayinig (taking no free actions either), or you bluff that you took a standard or two move actions (maybe by feigning an attack).
Elric Lornhood 09-01-06, 07:01 PM	So there is a question of whether being blinded is considered hampered movement then, for the purposes of charging at least? True enough, the charge part of PHB combat chapter gives examples like difficult terrain, but not slowed by being blinded. Yet I don't see how you can charge if your slowed to half speed since the charge bonus is all about momentum to begin with. Also, am I right to assume one can not take a 5' step while blinded since the square would cost 10"?
Dheran 09-02-06, 05:42 AM	Also, am I right to assume one can not take a 5' step while blinded since the square would cost 10"? That's correct. A 5' step is prohibited when your movement is hampered either by difficult terrain or by darkness. Being blinded makes it dark for you. However, we're talking about what happens when a charging character is blinded. The rules for charging require that you have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn. They don't say anything about the charge ending if you lose your sight, although conceivably the double movement cost for blindness could be considered a movement hindrance: nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles) Blindness (or darkness) is mentioned explicitly along with difficult terrain for the 5' step prohibition, but for charging vision is only explicitly required at the start. If you go with the only-at-start requirement for sight, then as long as the charger still has at least 10' available to their charging distance for the round they should be able to continue charging blindly 5' forward.
Damionte 09-02-06, 09:08 AM	I agree. If you blinded someone while they were charging. i'd give them 5 more feet of movement ahead if they like as a result of thier "OMG what the hell just happened reaction." Assuming they were already charging that far. In this particular example the character was not oging to charge any futher than he got when he was blinbded so no I wouldn't let him go anay further. Let's say the Mon kin question was using Cometary Collision to intercept the charger. Had hold the line and hit the charger as he went past. I'd give the charger his 5 more feet of movement then he'd have to stop. If his target happened to still be in the square he was aiming at and he was in reach I'd still give him his swing with the charge benifits, but with the 50% miss chance for being blind. If he didn't make it to his initial target though he'd be out of luck.
Elric Lornhood 09-02-06, 02:25 PM	Ok, so I can see how you would say that, though blind, his momentum would still give him that extra 5' if he heard you move, which would surely be a mighty low DC. I agree with that. If, instead, I readied to attack as he attacked me, my attack would go off just before his, and technically his movement for the charge would be complete and he couldn't take another 5' foot step that round. Right? Changing my ready-and-a-step trigger to his attack rather than his arrival in front of me would then foil the charge attack by waiting until his movement was finished. Right? Quote:>>"That's correct. A 5' step is prohibited when your movement is hampered either by difficult terrain or by darkness. Being blinded makes it dark for you. However, we're talking about what happens when a charging character is blinded."<< I realize that wasn't my original question, but that question also deals with part of my tactics for this fight. So I thought I'd throw it here rather than a new thread for a more simple question.
Dark1ord 09-02-06, 02:37 PM	I have some comments - not too off-topic I hope. ;) they [the rules] don't actually say here that you have to move in a straight line, even though this is almost always the case (assuming your opponent doesn't move, that is). If your opponent moves to the side and you still have movement left, the rules don't seem to technically disallow you moving to reach him.the rules also say: "You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent" - emphasis mine. I'd say that "directly" would mean the same as "in a straight line". the pictures used in describing a charge certainly show that... as for readying a 5-foot step, there's some relevant text: "You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round" - this seems to indicate that you can't ready a 5-foot step in itself, but that you have to use it in conjunction with other actions: "You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action" - whether there's an attack of opportunity or not now depends on the action readied...
Dheran 09-03-06, 08:36 AM	this seems to indicate that you can't ready a 5-foot step in itself, but that you have to use it in conjunction with other actions: "You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action" Well, that's a trivial problem to solve. You can ready a free action to raise one eyebrow, and take the 5' step along with that readied action. There are an infinite number of trivial free actions you can do that won't provoke an AoO by themselves.
Dark1ord 09-03-06, 02:19 PM	yes of course. I wasn't making it a problem, I was just trying to describe the mechanics. raising an eyebrow is funny. enemy comes charging - you raise your eyebrow - and step out of harm's way... coolness factor? pretty high, hehe. :) incidentally, the silliness factor is probably equally high. ;)
Damionte 09-03-06, 11:13 PM	If, instead, I readied to attack as he attacked me, my attack would go off just before his, and technically his movement for the charge would be complete and he couldn't take another 5' foot step that round. Right? Changing my ready-and-a-step trigger to his attack rather than his arrival in front of me would then foil the charge attack by waiting until his movement was finished. Right? I soppse so.