Blinding Flash of light - What kind of save? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blinding Flash of light - What kind of save? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Spike_Fightwicky
06-23-06, 11:16 AM (I think this is the right board for this...)

Suppose someone invented a device that can emit a very powerful burst of light (and was non-magical). Suppose it was from some alchemical mix reduced to powder form and ignited.

What kind of save would a character get to avoid being blinded or dazzled by the device (Fort, Ref or Will)? Most magical light effects that blind or have light based effects have will saves. However, simply closing your eyes right before it goes off might negate a blinding effect. Finally, most effects that target a biological function or sense require a fort save...

Any suggestions on what kind of save it would be?
CantripN
06-23-06, 11:23 AM It's not an attack on the mind, so not Will. No jumping aside, so not Reflex. It targets your body's senses, thus Fortitude.
tarkin
06-23-06, 11:26 AM According to SWAT people, merely closing your eyes is not enough, the light is bright enough to impair your vision through your eyelids. Eyelids are translucent, they let some light in - if you close your eyes at look at the sun (key word there is CLOSE) then you will see redish color instead of darkness. This is actually the blood in veins in your eyelids.

Now, turning your head 180 degrees and ALSO closing your eyes might work, but I can't see that as being a "reflex" move - it sounds too complicated. In fact, that is what I would consider the Will save to be - the realization that you need to turn your head and close your eyes in time to do it.
Planar Wanderer
06-23-06, 12:10 PM It's not an attack on the mind, so not Will. No jumping aside, so not Reflex. It targets your body's senses, thus Fortitude.

I'm inclined to call reflex actually although Fortitude would work as well but my logic for this is that Spells like Sunburst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sunburst.htm) have a reflex negates blindness and this strikes me as being effectively an alchemical sunburst minus the damage, that said you could model it on Blindness/deafness as well which according to the SRD has a Fort save so I'd say Fort or Reflex should work whatever feels better.
Tony Vargas
06-23-06, 12:32 PM Interesting. It looks like, from existing effects, it can be anything you want:

The afore-mentioned Sunburst and Blinding Shields call for REF saves. A REF save could include throwing up your arm/shield to cover your eyes, for instance.

Pyrotechnics (fireworks) calls for a will save - perhaps to avoid the lure of watching fireworks? (it also oddly takes SR, while the smoke version doesn't)

The Flare cantrip, calls for a FORT save. Perhaps being dazzled is more about your body's physiological response to the light? :shrug:
Rulebook
06-23-06, 05:30 PM well, while reality might dictate a reflex save, D&D rules have clearly set this kind of thing up as a Fort save.

there are a few items that do exactly what the OP wants (some in the Underdark book i think) and they're like Fort Save DC 14 or so. set it higher for a dazzled effect i suppose.
Erak
06-23-06, 05:35 PM Just base it on a Thunderstone. I assume you are trying to make a "flash bang" device......so just add some flash to the Thunderstone and keep it the same save just add cost.
ShinAkuma2
06-23-06, 11:25 PM well, while reality might dictate a reflex save, D&D rules have clearly set this kind of thing up as a Fort save.

A shield with this ability flashes with a brilliant light up to twice per day upon command of the wielder. Anyone within 20 feet except the wielder must make a DC 14 Reflex save or be blinded for 1d4 rounds.

There we go...DMG says reflex.

However, there is an alchemical item in the A&EG that forces a Fort save vs blindness, so it comes down to you. Which you do you want?
Esponer
06-23-06, 11:49 PM I'd probably personally favour a Reflex saving throw, and I think a Reflex saving throw is the prevalent method in official D&D books. For me, if something affects your body and grants a Reflex saving throw and no Fortitude saving throw, it must either a) measure itself against your constitution in some other way, e.g., deal hit points of damage or b) be completely beyond resistance by means of your fortitude. B is probably the reason why the Reflex saving throw is so prevalent: it needs a saving throw, and usually being blinded isn't something you can resist passively. I'd describe the Reflex saving throw as attempting to look away completely.

Tarkin's reasoning for a Will saving throw is imaginative, but in my opinion a saving throw is generally a defensive thing, and having the wits to know to look away seems like something not associated with Will saving throws. (Probably correlates more to intelligence and reaction time than to wisdom or willpower.)

A Fortitude saving throw is difficult to envisage. Flare utilises one, but I would explain this by saying that very weak light effects can be resisted by one's fortitude, but more powerful ones are inevitably irresistible. Why doesn't flare grant a Reflex saving throw? Because it's too fast for that, and fortitude was better for how minor the flash was. Why do more powerful light effects grant Reflex saving throws? Because a saving throw is required, and fortitude becomes a little unlikely.
Spike_Fightwicky
06-26-06, 11:12 AM After reading everything, I think I might go for the reflex save (the Blinding ability for shields from the DMG was the main reason). The only reason a blinding shield would require a reflex save would be to 'look away' in time. I'll see how it goes. Thanks for all the input!
Killer_DM
06-26-06, 02:03 PM I would say reflex save, you could look away or put your hand infront of your eyes.

Both of those would require reflexes, plus there are "flash bang" type items in the game that have been already noted above that are reflex save.

In the end you are the DM it is your call.

If it was me, will saves for rogues and fighters, fort saves for Clerics and Wizards.......But that is just me :D
utilitarian
06-26-06, 03:24 PM If it was me, will saves for rogues and fighters, fort saves for Clerics and Wizards.......But that is just me :D

Why would you have different classes make different kinds of saving throws? Being a Cleric doesn't somehow change the way something effects you.

My money is on Reflex, to represent things like closing your eyes, throwing your hands up, or looking away. I suppose Fortitiude is also possible, but I don't think being extra hardy would offer much better protection. Will I would count right out, if not for the listing in Pyrotechnics. I honestly don't know why it is a Will save in that case, which seems to make no sense to me.
KmartKommando
06-26-06, 09:35 PM The Glitterdust spell pretty much throws stuff in your eyes, and is a Will Save negates blinding effect.
ShinAkuma2
06-26-06, 11:01 PM Why would you have different classes make different kinds of saving throws? Being a Cleric doesn't somehow change the way something effects you.

...Rogues and Fighters tend to have low Will saves, Clerics and Wizards tend to have low Fort saves. Hence, the save is in whatever the PC is weaker.

It's a joke, son, try not to get lost.
Killer_DM
06-27-06, 02:54 PM Shin, thank you it was totally a joke....and a play on my handle

:D
utilitarian
06-27-06, 03:23 PM Tone of voice doesn't carry into text too well.

Besides, given the absolutely ridiculous things people allow and do in thier games and talk about on these boards, doing something like changing saves would hardly have been so ridiculous as to have been an obvious joke.
Killer_DM
06-28-06, 01:23 PM true enough

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Spike_Fightwicky 06-23-06, 11:16 AM	(I think this is the right board for this...) Suppose someone invented a device that can emit a very powerful burst of light (and was non-magical). Suppose it was from some alchemical mix reduced to powder form and ignited. What kind of save would a character get to avoid being blinded or dazzled by the device (Fort, Ref or Will)? Most magical light effects that blind or have light based effects have will saves. However, simply closing your eyes right before it goes off might negate a blinding effect. Finally, most effects that target a biological function or sense require a fort save... Any suggestions on what kind of save it would be?
CantripN 06-23-06, 11:23 AM	It's not an attack on the mind, so not Will. No jumping aside, so not Reflex. It targets your body's senses, thus Fortitude.
tarkin 06-23-06, 11:26 AM	According to SWAT people, merely closing your eyes is not enough, the light is bright enough to impair your vision through your eyelids. Eyelids are translucent, they let some light in - if you close your eyes at look at the sun (key word there is CLOSE) then you will see redish color instead of darkness. This is actually the blood in veins in your eyelids. Now, turning your head 180 degrees and ALSO closing your eyes might work, but I can't see that as being a "reflex" move - it sounds too complicated. In fact, that is what I would consider the Will save to be - the realization that you need to turn your head and close your eyes in time to do it.
Planar Wanderer 06-23-06, 12:10 PM	It's not an attack on the mind, so not Will. No jumping aside, so not Reflex. It targets your body's senses, thus Fortitude. I'm inclined to call reflex actually although Fortitude would work as well but my logic for this is that Spells like Sunburst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sunburst.htm) have a reflex negates blindness and this strikes me as being effectively an alchemical sunburst minus the damage, that said you could model it on Blindness/deafness as well which according to the SRD has a Fort save so I'd say Fort or Reflex should work whatever feels better.
Tony Vargas 06-23-06, 12:32 PM	Interesting. It looks like, from existing effects, it can be anything you want: The afore-mentioned Sunburst and Blinding Shields call for REF saves. A REF save could include throwing up your arm/shield to cover your eyes, for instance. Pyrotechnics (fireworks) calls for a will save - perhaps to avoid the lure of watching fireworks? (it also oddly takes SR, while the smoke version doesn't) The Flare cantrip, calls for a FORT save. Perhaps being dazzled is more about your body's physiological response to the light? :shrug:
Rulebook 06-23-06, 05:30 PM	well, while reality might dictate a reflex save, D&D rules have clearly set this kind of thing up as a Fort save. there are a few items that do exactly what the OP wants (some in the Underdark book i think) and they're like Fort Save DC 14 or so. set it higher for a dazzled effect i suppose.
Erak 06-23-06, 05:35 PM	Just base it on a Thunderstone. I assume you are trying to make a "flash bang" device......so just add some flash to the Thunderstone and keep it the same save just add cost.
ShinAkuma2 06-23-06, 11:25 PM	well, while reality might dictate a reflex save, D&D rules have clearly set this kind of thing up as a Fort save. A shield with this ability flashes with a brilliant light up to twice per day upon command of the wielder. Anyone within 20 feet except the wielder must make a DC 14 Reflex save or be blinded for 1d4 rounds. There we go...DMG says reflex. However, there is an alchemical item in the A&EG that forces a Fort save vs blindness, so it comes down to you. Which you do you want?
Esponer 06-23-06, 11:49 PM	I'd probably personally favour a Reflex saving throw, and I think a Reflex saving throw is the prevalent method in official D&D books. For me, if something affects your body and grants a Reflex saving throw and no Fortitude saving throw, it must either a) measure itself against your constitution in some other way, e.g., deal hit points of damage or b) be completely beyond resistance by means of your fortitude. B is probably the reason why the Reflex saving throw is so prevalent: it needs a saving throw, and usually being blinded isn't something you can resist passively. I'd describe the Reflex saving throw as attempting to look away completely. Tarkin's reasoning for a Will saving throw is imaginative, but in my opinion a saving throw is generally a defensive thing, and having the wits to know to look away seems like something not associated with Will saving throws. (Probably correlates more to intelligence and reaction time than to wisdom or willpower.) A Fortitude saving throw is difficult to envisage. Flare utilises one, but I would explain this by saying that very weak light effects can be resisted by one's fortitude, but more powerful ones are inevitably irresistible. Why doesn't flare grant a Reflex saving throw? Because it's too fast for that, and fortitude was better for how minor the flash was. Why do more powerful light effects grant Reflex saving throws? Because a saving throw is required, and fortitude becomes a little unlikely.
Spike_Fightwicky 06-26-06, 11:12 AM	After reading everything, I think I might go for the reflex save (the Blinding ability for shields from the DMG was the main reason). The only reason a blinding shield would require a reflex save would be to 'look away' in time. I'll see how it goes. Thanks for all the input!
Killer_DM 06-26-06, 02:03 PM	I would say reflex save, you could look away or put your hand infront of your eyes. Both of those would require reflexes, plus there are "flash bang" type items in the game that have been already noted above that are reflex save. In the end you are the DM it is your call. If it was me, will saves for rogues and fighters, fort saves for Clerics and Wizards.......But that is just me :D
utilitarian 06-26-06, 03:24 PM	If it was me, will saves for rogues and fighters, fort saves for Clerics and Wizards.......But that is just me :D Why would you have different classes make different kinds of saving throws? Being a Cleric doesn't somehow change the way something effects you. My money is on Reflex, to represent things like closing your eyes, throwing your hands up, or looking away. I suppose Fortitiude is also possible, but I don't think being extra hardy would offer much better protection. Will I would count right out, if not for the listing in Pyrotechnics. I honestly don't know why it is a Will save in that case, which seems to make no sense to me.
KmartKommando 06-26-06, 09:35 PM	The Glitterdust spell pretty much throws stuff in your eyes, and is a Will Save negates blinding effect.
ShinAkuma2 06-26-06, 11:01 PM	Why would you have different classes make different kinds of saving throws? Being a Cleric doesn't somehow change the way something effects you. ...Rogues and Fighters tend to have low Will saves, Clerics and Wizards tend to have low Fort saves. Hence, the save is in whatever the PC is weaker. It's a joke, son, try not to get lost.
Killer_DM 06-27-06, 02:54 PM	Shin, thank you it was totally a joke....and a play on my handle :D
utilitarian 06-27-06, 03:23 PM	Tone of voice doesn't carry into text too well. Besides, given the absolutely ridiculous things people allow and do in thier games and talk about on these boards, doing something like changing saves would hardly have been so ridiculous as to have been an obvious joke.
Killer_DM 06-28-06, 01:23 PM	true enough