Blindness Penalties: Confusion, need clarification [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blindness Penalties: Confusion, need clarification [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Razz
03-31-05, 01:06 AM Ok let me get this straight.

Not only does blindness cut your speed in half but you have to pay double the squares as well when moving? Am I right that a human with a speed of 30 feet has his speed dropped to 15 feet and also has to pay 10 feet to move one square?

Or is it just the same thing? The 30 feet speed human has his speed dropped to 15 feet and moves normally?

Another question is it says being blind counts as being in darkness, and darkness is considered hampered movement, so you cannot charge, run, or take a 5-foot step.

1) I don't see any sense in a blind person not being able to take a 5-foot step. It makes sense with hampered movement because of uneven ground, but not being able to see shouldn't stop this action.

2) May I ask why a blind person cannot charge or run? I can close my eyes and run. I may bump into something, possibly trip over something I ran up to and could not see, but I can still run if the ground is even and no obstacles were about.

So I tried looking for a way a blind character can charge, run, and even take a 5-foot step while still blind and I believe it's under the Accelerated Movement option for the Balance skill. It says if you make a Balance check you can charge across surfaces that hampers your movement. Would this work with being blind too?

I ask this because I have a player that plays a blind samurai and I really didn't notice all the penalties above were associated with blindness. Worse comes to worse I may house rule Balance checks to allow him to take 5-foot stes, charge and run but I just find it ridiculous to begin with.
Brand Finbuck
03-31-05, 01:28 AM Ok let me get this straight.

Not only does blindness cut your speed in half but you have to pay double the squares as well when moving? Am I right that a human with a speed of 30 feet has his speed dropped to 15 feet and also has to pay 10 feet to move one square?

Or is it just the same thing? The 30 feet speed human has his speed dropped to 15 feet and moves normally?

No, it's just half, you may be confused where it states that effectively, you are paying double to move one square.

Another question is it says being blind counts as being in darkness, and darkness is considered hampered movement, so you cannot charge, run, or take a 5-foot step.

Correct, not being able to take 5-foot steps is part of the 'half-speed' condition. Being blind is no exception.

1) I don't see any sense in a blind person not being able to take a 5-foot step. It makes sense with hampered movement because of uneven ground, but not being able to see shouldn't stop this action.

Frequently, half-speed is a result of entanglement, being slowed, or other similar effects that logically do hamper movement to that extent. Being half-speed means you have to carefully manage your movement due to some external factor and it's meant to be an impairment even when you are taking full-round actions.

2) May I ask why a blind person cannot charge or run? I can close my eyes and run. I may bump into something, possibly trip over something I ran up to and could not see, but I can still run if the ground is even and no obstacles were about.

Being able to charge or run is also part of the half-speed status; trying to run with you eyes closed during a gunfight is a real bad idea. It doesn't mean you literally become incapable of running, not in this case, but for other half-speed sources it may. You can always house rule this part to allow running; but it gets complicated because how do you determine whether or nto a blinded character runs into stuff, the player is never going to 'opt' to run into things. It's generally easier to just bar him from charging or running.

So I tried looking for a way a blind character can charge, run, and even take a 5-foot step while still blind and I believe it's under the Accelerated Movement option for the Balance skill. It says if you make a Balance check you can charge across surfaces that hampers your movement. Would this work with being blind too?

I am not incredibly familiar with the balance skill's specifics, but if it can overcome hampered movement with a balance check, then yes I suppose you could. As far as I know, this wouldn't allow you to take 5-foot steps though.

I ask this because I have a player that plays a blind samurai and I really didn't notice all the penalties above were associated with blindness. Worse comes to worse I may house rule Balance checks to allow him to take 5-foot stes, charge and run but I just find it ridiculous to begin with.

If being blind is part of his character concept, there's no reason why you can't simply say his other senses, namely his kinesthetic sense, have sharpened to the point where these penalties do not apply. Since he's playing a blind character, I assume want he and you really want is for him to be blind in concept and roleplay only, but no less effective in combat. That's not necessarily unreasonable; you're the DM, just say the penalties don't apply because he's adapted.

In the case of magically induced blindness, you can simply ad hoc that the magic nullifies the aspects of his senses that allow him to avert those penalties. If you'd rather not do that, simple make a feat he can take.
Colmarr
03-31-05, 03:20 AM From the glossary:

Blinded: Unable to see. A blinded character takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) relative to the blinded character.

I agree with Brand that the half-speed movement is caused by the blindness, and that you don't then pay double for the hampered movement.

As for charging, the SRD describes hampered movement as:

Difficult terrain, obstacles, or poor visibility can hamper movement

However, the rules for the Charge action say that to charge:

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles)

Notice that poor visibility is mentioned in hampered movement, but not in the charging rules. I think the absence is telling, and think that blindness does not prohibit charging.

As for running, the SRD description of the run action says:

You can’t run across difficult terrain or if you can’t see where you’re going.

That's pretty clear.

The SRD entry for the 5 foot step action says:

You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness.

As a general rule, I think it's safe to equate blindness with being in darkness, so that's also pretty clear. I think in this case, the difficulty arises not from an unwillingness to take the step, but from an inability to tell how far you've actually stepped.

Finally, the last sentence of the definition for "blinded" (which I have left till last) is:

Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them (DM's discretion).

If you want to remove any or all of these penalties, feel free to do so.
Razz
04-01-05, 12:45 AM Finally, the last sentence of the definition for "blinded" (which I have left till last) is:

If you want to remove any or all of these penalties, feel free to do so.

Yes, I found this in my DMG, thank you for pointing it out. His character has a family curse where every first born child is born permanently blind, with absolutely no way of having it cured except through the acts of a deity (not even miracle or wish can take it off) or somehow find a way to lift the curse.

Since he's been blind since birth, I'd have to use the discretion given to me and allow him to take 5-foot steps and allowed to charge and run, having been accustomed to the blindness all his life (and having the Blind-Fight feat, that definitely should help with battle). We've agreed the reduced speed, Search penalties and Strength- and Dexterity-based skills stay, along with obviously the miss chance from concealment (we've counted this as a Flaw, so he has a bonus feat now with his character).

Cool, thanks again.
Brand Finbuck
04-01-05, 01:00 AM A coincidentally related topic:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=5823691#post5823691

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Razz 03-31-05, 01:06 AM	Ok let me get this straight. Not only does blindness cut your speed in half but you have to pay double the squares as well when moving? Am I right that a human with a speed of 30 feet has his speed dropped to 15 feet and also has to pay 10 feet to move one square? Or is it just the same thing? The 30 feet speed human has his speed dropped to 15 feet and moves normally? Another question is it says being blind counts as being in darkness, and darkness is considered hampered movement, so you cannot charge, run, or take a 5-foot step. 1) I don't see any sense in a blind person not being able to take a 5-foot step. It makes sense with hampered movement because of uneven ground, but not being able to see shouldn't stop this action. 2) May I ask why a blind person cannot charge or run? I can close my eyes and run. I may bump into something, possibly trip over something I ran up to and could not see, but I can still run if the ground is even and no obstacles were about. So I tried looking for a way a blind character can charge, run, and even take a 5-foot step while still blind and I believe it's under the Accelerated Movement option for the Balance skill. It says if you make a Balance check you can charge across surfaces that hampers your movement. Would this work with being blind too? I ask this because I have a player that plays a blind samurai and I really didn't notice all the penalties above were associated with blindness. Worse comes to worse I may house rule Balance checks to allow him to take 5-foot stes, charge and run but I just find it ridiculous to begin with.
Brand Finbuck 03-31-05, 01:28 AM	Ok let me get this straight. Not only does blindness cut your speed in half but you have to pay double the squares as well when moving? Am I right that a human with a speed of 30 feet has his speed dropped to 15 feet and also has to pay 10 feet to move one square? Or is it just the same thing? The 30 feet speed human has his speed dropped to 15 feet and moves normally? No, it's just half, you may be confused where it states that effectively, you are paying double to move one square. Another question is it says being blind counts as being in darkness, and darkness is considered hampered movement, so you cannot charge, run, or take a 5-foot step. Correct, not being able to take 5-foot steps is part of the 'half-speed' condition. Being blind is no exception. 1) I don't see any sense in a blind person not being able to take a 5-foot step. It makes sense with hampered movement because of uneven ground, but not being able to see shouldn't stop this action. Frequently, half-speed is a result of entanglement, being slowed, or other similar effects that logically do hamper movement to that extent. Being half-speed means you have to carefully manage your movement due to some external factor and it's meant to be an impairment even when you are taking full-round actions. 2) May I ask why a blind person cannot charge or run? I can close my eyes and run. I may bump into something, possibly trip over something I ran up to and could not see, but I can still run if the ground is even and no obstacles were about. Being able to charge or run is also part of the half-speed status; trying to run with you eyes closed during a gunfight is a real bad idea. It doesn't mean you literally become incapable of running, not in this case, but for other half-speed sources it may. You can always house rule this part to allow running; but it gets complicated because how do you determine whether or nto a blinded character runs into stuff, the player is never going to 'opt' to run into things. It's generally easier to just bar him from charging or running. So I tried looking for a way a blind character can charge, run, and even take a 5-foot step while still blind and I believe it's under the Accelerated Movement option for the Balance skill. It says if you make a Balance check you can charge across surfaces that hampers your movement. Would this work with being blind too? I am not incredibly familiar with the balance skill's specifics, but if it can overcome hampered movement with a balance check, then yes I suppose you could. As far as I know, this wouldn't allow you to take 5-foot steps though. I ask this because I have a player that plays a blind samurai and I really didn't notice all the penalties above were associated with blindness. Worse comes to worse I may house rule Balance checks to allow him to take 5-foot stes, charge and run but I just find it ridiculous to begin with. If being blind is part of his character concept, there's no reason why you can't simply say his other senses, namely his kinesthetic sense, have sharpened to the point where these penalties do not apply. Since he's playing a blind character, I assume want he and you really want is for him to be blind in concept and roleplay only, but no less effective in combat. That's not necessarily unreasonable; you're the DM, just say the penalties don't apply because he's adapted. In the case of magically induced blindness, you can simply ad hoc that the magic nullifies the aspects of his senses that allow him to avert those penalties. If you'd rather not do that, simple make a feat he can take.
Colmarr 03-31-05, 03:20 AM	From the glossary: Blinded: Unable to see. A blinded character takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) relative to the blinded character. I agree with Brand that the half-speed movement is caused by the blindness, and that you don't then pay double for the hampered movement. As for charging, the SRD describes hampered movement as: Difficult terrain, obstacles, or poor visibility can hamper movement However, the rules for the Charge action say that to charge: You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles) Notice that poor visibility is mentioned in hampered movement, but not in the charging rules. I think the absence is telling, and think that blindness does not prohibit charging. As for running, the SRD description of the run action says: You can’t run across difficult terrain or if you can’t see where you’re going. That's pretty clear. The SRD entry for the 5 foot step action says: You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. As a general rule, I think it's safe to equate blindness with being in darkness, so that's also pretty clear. I think in this case, the difficulty arises not from an unwillingness to take the step, but from an inability to tell how far you've actually stepped. Finally, the last sentence of the definition for "blinded" (which I have left till last) is: Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them (DM's discretion). If you want to remove any or all of these penalties, feel free to do so.
Razz 04-01-05, 12:45 AM	Finally, the last sentence of the definition for "blinded" (which I have left till last) is: If you want to remove any or all of these penalties, feel free to do so. Yes, I found this in my DMG, thank you for pointing it out. His character has a family curse where every first born child is born permanently blind, with absolutely no way of having it cured except through the acts of a deity (not even miracle or wish can take it off) or somehow find a way to lift the curse. Since he's been blind since birth, I'd have to use the discretion given to me and allow him to take 5-foot steps and allowed to charge and run, having been accustomed to the blindness all his life (and having the Blind-Fight feat, that definitely should help with battle). We've agreed the reduced speed, Search penalties and Strength- and Dexterity-based skills stay, along with obviously the miss chance from concealment (we've counted this as a Flaw, so he has a bonus feat now with his character). Cool, thanks again.
Brand Finbuck 04-01-05, 01:00 AM	A coincidentally related topic: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=5823691#post5823691