Blink magic items? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blink magic items? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
quix0te
06-18-07, 12:02 PM One of my players is running a rogue and would like to have a ring of blinking. While this is wholly reasonable on its face, the synergies between rogues' SA and blink's special effect (opponent always flat-footed) means that rogues are getting Full attack actions with SA EVERY ROUND they use the item.
I was wondering if there were any 'official' blink items outside of the DMG or other official responses to this?
TimelordSimone
06-18-07, 12:11 PM I think (If I remember rightly) you also only have a 50% of hitting anyone. So, you make your attack roll, hit, and then have a 50% of missing still. You can also only move 3/4 speed.
Of course, I may be remembering wrong.
But this seems to make it a bit more fair.
In my brain at least.

Simone
xx
jaelis
06-18-07, 12:16 PM The ring is very powerful for a rogue. But remember it takes a standard action to activate and only goes for 7 rounds. And the rogue does take a 20% miss chance and a 25% penalty to speed.

At the level you can afford it, the wizard should also be throwing around greater invisibility, so its not really that out of line.

I don't know any other blink items. Why would you need one?
tarkin
06-18-07, 12:21 PM Timelord is close to the truth.

Wearing a ring of blinking gives you a miss chance and also slows you down.

It is a good strategy for a rogue, but not perfect.

1. You have a 20% miss chance (not 50%) when attacking others not blinking.

2. Your victims are denied dex (sneak attack) and you get a +2 to hit them.

3. You rmovement is reduced to 75%

------

The ring costs 27,000 gp, and needs a standard action to activate it once every 7 rounds.

Somepeople consider a wand of Greater Invisibility to be a better investment. It only costs 21,000 gp. That requires you to use UMD.

And is only good for 50 sets of 7 rounds, not unlimited.

But it gives you the same ability to sneak attack, without the 20% miss chance for your own attacks.
quix0te
06-18-07, 12:25 PM Okay. I had forgotten the ring was in the DMG (feeling dumb). And I was reminded of the part that had a problem with in the first place. The rogue can do it every combat. (As writtten in the DMG) So before every combat or dangerous situation, even if there is a standard action activation they turn on the ring. Every time. By comparison, they could have a brace of +3 weapons, +2 prot, +3 nat armor, and +3 armor for about the same price. And none of these have the same synergy benefits.
Yes, the mage can throw around improved invisibility, but for a mage imp invis is wholly defensive. They dont get any bonuses to offense from it. And its not even as good a defense as blinking. The miss chance is 20% for the blinker and 50% for everyone else, plus a 50% chance of spells having no effect.
TimelordSimone
06-18-07, 12:36 PM Okay. I had forgotten the ring was in the DMG (feeling dumb). And I was reminded of the part that had a problem with in the first place. The rogue can do it every combat. (As writtten in the DMG) So before every combat or dangerous situation, even if there is a standard action activation they turn on the ring. Every time. By comparison, they could have a brace of +3 weapons, +2 prot, +3 nat armor, and +3 armor for about the same price. And none of these have the same synergy benefits.
Yes, the mage can throw around improved invisibility, but for a mage imp invis is wholly defensive. They dont get any bonuses to offense from it. And its not even as good a defense as blinking. The miss chance is 20% for the blinker and 50% for everyone else, plus a 50% chance of spells having no effect.

Urm.. The mage could cast greater invisibility on the rogue, no?
That makes it far better than the ring of blinking.
Far far better.
Dalthbar
06-18-07, 12:39 PM Some magic items will simply work better with some class features.

Not everything is good for everyone and some things are just DAMN GOOD for some people.

A rogue in a party with a clever fighter that has a good sense of movement rules should be able to sneak attack all day long - and that's free with no base miss chance.
Evicmar
06-18-07, 12:43 PM Don't forget the Rogue Blade that has blink on it at all times. It's in savage species-pg 51.
quix0te
06-18-07, 01:04 PM I did a little bit of research in the DMG. The greater cloak of displacement is 50K gp for 15 rounds of displacement per day, sliceable as you choose. Displacement is a more or less equivalent 3rd level spell. The lesser cloak of displacement is 20K gp for a blur spell, but its usable 24/7. This aligns with the ring of invisibility being 20K gp for invisibility 24/7. So I'm thinking 27k gp for a ring of blinking (24/7) is actually an error. I think if you use a magic item to generate a spell effect rather than spell completion, it gets a lot more expensive (see scrolls vs. potions).
Dont know nothing about no blink blade. Thats a whole different thing and I'm not getting into it.
As far as the mage casting improved invisibility on the rogue, or the fighter using ultraflanking feats; thats party synergy. The party members SHOULD be more powerful together. And both of those require the party members to use some of their resources (spells/day or feats) to give boosts. Thats very different from buying a magic item that significantly increases both offense and defense.
Dheran
06-18-07, 02:28 PM This aligns with the ring of invisibility being 20K gp for invisibility 24/7. The ring works as the spell Invisibility, which has a duration of 3 minutes at the default CL 3rd. You need to expend a standard action every 3 minutes or less, forever, to keep reactivating the ring to maintain the effect going 24/7. The Cloak of Displacement, Minor is much more reliable because its effect just keeps working. On the other side, the Ring of Blinking only lasts 7 rounds before its effect stops, so that's even less convenient.
snakeman830
06-18-07, 09:56 PM I still find the ring of blinking to be a worthwhile investment for a rogue. The 20% miss chance can easily be overcome by using ghost-touch weapons and the speed reduction can be fixed using armor of quickness (for halflings and gnomes) or boots of sprining and striding (for everyone else, though depending on your DM, the armor method works too).

Meanwhile, your opponents have miss chances against you that stacks from those provided by blur/displacement. Excellent defense.

After all, sure, you get 7 rounds of blink time, but how much dmage can you dish out in those seven rounds?

The DM (you, quix0te) should be glad he's not a tauric blink-dog (eternal blink + free telporting that doesn't cause you to lose any actions= deadly rogue).
jaelis
06-18-07, 10:35 PM I still find the ring of blinking to be a worthwhile investment for a rogue. The 20% miss chance can easily be overcome by using ghost-touch weapons

Ghost touch doesn't help the blinking miss chance (either for the attacker or defender). You are ethereal, not incorporeal.

and the speed reduction can be fixed using armor of quickness (for halflings and gnomes) or boots of sprining and striding (for everyone else, though depending on your DM, the armor method works too).

Of course, when you're not blinking you'll be even faster with one of those items.

Not to say that it's not a great item. It just has its down sides.
1hitparry
06-19-07, 12:26 AM Rogues with Rings of blinking can be annoying, but a potion of See Invisibility will help level the playing field a lot. No more SA based on blinking alone. Just thought I'd throw out some counter-tactics in.
snakeman830
06-19-07, 11:42 AM Ghost touch doesn't help the blinking miss chance (either for the attacker or defender). You are ethereal, not incorporeal.

Hey, Ghosts are ethereal too, but they can pick up and use ghost-touch weapons against material foes.

The blink miss chance is not negated if they can still see you (though it is reduced), they have to be able to strike you as well, hence, you are incorporeal as well as invisible.
jaelis
06-19-07, 12:12 PM Hey, Ghosts are ethereal too, but they can pick up and use ghost-touch weapons against material foes.

Only when they are manifested. When a ghost is on the ethereal plane, "it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world." I think force effects are the only exception (and they only go one way.)
DragonDan
06-19-07, 03:22 PM A rogue in a party with a clever fighter that has a good sense of movement rules should be able to sneak attack all day long - and that's free with no base miss chance.
QFT.

The rogue in my local group started using Spring attack and is getting free SA every round without staying in melee (basically 100% miss chance).

Dan.
tarkin
06-19-07, 06:23 PM Spring Attack is a good strategy, and so is picking up Whirlwind after that. Get yourself a Spiked chain and you are a mass murder.

Use Dust of Dissappearance, sneak into center of room. Next round, whirlwind.

Repeat until every living thing in the room is dead. Should not take more than 3 rounds.

Nasty trick to play on the party.
RikuKupo
06-19-07, 06:44 PM The DM (you, quix0te) should be glad he's not a tauric blink-dog (eternal blink + free telporting that doesn't cause you to lose any actions= deadly rogue).

:drool:

Can't intelligent items activate themselves? Make the ring smart!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
quix0te 06-18-07, 12:02 PM	One of my players is running a rogue and would like to have a ring of blinking. While this is wholly reasonable on its face, the synergies between rogues' SA and blink's special effect (opponent always flat-footed) means that rogues are getting Full attack actions with SA EVERY ROUND they use the item. I was wondering if there were any 'official' blink items outside of the DMG or other official responses to this?
TimelordSimone 06-18-07, 12:11 PM	I think (If I remember rightly) you also only have a 50% of hitting anyone. So, you make your attack roll, hit, and then have a 50% of missing still. You can also only move 3/4 speed. Of course, I may be remembering wrong. But this seems to make it a bit more fair. In my brain at least. Simone xx
jaelis 06-18-07, 12:16 PM	The ring is very powerful for a rogue. But remember it takes a standard action to activate and only goes for 7 rounds. And the rogue does take a 20% miss chance and a 25% penalty to speed. At the level you can afford it, the wizard should also be throwing around greater invisibility, so its not really that out of line. I don't know any other blink items. Why would you need one?
tarkin 06-18-07, 12:21 PM	Timelord is close to the truth. Wearing a ring of blinking gives you a miss chance and also slows you down. It is a good strategy for a rogue, but not perfect. 1. You have a 20% miss chance (not 50%) when attacking others not blinking. 2. Your victims are denied dex (sneak attack) and you get a +2 to hit them. 3. You rmovement is reduced to 75% ------ The ring costs 27,000 gp, and needs a standard action to activate it once every 7 rounds. Somepeople consider a wand of Greater Invisibility to be a better investment. It only costs 21,000 gp. That requires you to use UMD. And is only good for 50 sets of 7 rounds, not unlimited. But it gives you the same ability to sneak attack, without the 20% miss chance for your own attacks.
quix0te 06-18-07, 12:25 PM	Okay. I had forgotten the ring was in the DMG (feeling dumb). And I was reminded of the part that had a problem with in the first place. The rogue can do it every combat. (As writtten in the DMG) So before every combat or dangerous situation, even if there is a standard action activation they turn on the ring. Every time. By comparison, they could have a brace of +3 weapons, +2 prot, +3 nat armor, and +3 armor for about the same price. And none of these have the same synergy benefits. Yes, the mage can throw around improved invisibility, but for a mage imp invis is wholly defensive. They dont get any bonuses to offense from it. And its not even as good a defense as blinking. The miss chance is 20% for the blinker and 50% for everyone else, plus a 50% chance of spells having no effect.
TimelordSimone 06-18-07, 12:36 PM	Okay. I had forgotten the ring was in the DMG (feeling dumb). And I was reminded of the part that had a problem with in the first place. The rogue can do it every combat. (As writtten in the DMG) So before every combat or dangerous situation, even if there is a standard action activation they turn on the ring. Every time. By comparison, they could have a brace of +3 weapons, +2 prot, +3 nat armor, and +3 armor for about the same price. And none of these have the same synergy benefits. Yes, the mage can throw around improved invisibility, but for a mage imp invis is wholly defensive. They dont get any bonuses to offense from it. And its not even as good a defense as blinking. The miss chance is 20% for the blinker and 50% for everyone else, plus a 50% chance of spells having no effect. Urm.. The mage could cast greater invisibility on the rogue, no? That makes it far better than the ring of blinking. Far far better.
Dalthbar 06-18-07, 12:39 PM	Some magic items will simply work better with some class features. Not everything is good for everyone and some things are just DAMN GOOD for some people. A rogue in a party with a clever fighter that has a good sense of movement rules should be able to sneak attack all day long - and that's free with no base miss chance.
Evicmar 06-18-07, 12:43 PM	Don't forget the Rogue Blade that has blink on it at all times. It's in savage species-pg 51.
quix0te 06-18-07, 01:04 PM	I did a little bit of research in the DMG. The greater cloak of displacement is 50K gp for 15 rounds of displacement per day, sliceable as you choose. Displacement is a more or less equivalent 3rd level spell. The lesser cloak of displacement is 20K gp for a blur spell, but its usable 24/7. This aligns with the ring of invisibility being 20K gp for invisibility 24/7. So I'm thinking 27k gp for a ring of blinking (24/7) is actually an error. I think if you use a magic item to generate a spell effect rather than spell completion, it gets a lot more expensive (see scrolls vs. potions). Dont know nothing about no blink blade. Thats a whole different thing and I'm not getting into it. As far as the mage casting improved invisibility on the rogue, or the fighter using ultraflanking feats; thats party synergy. The party members SHOULD be more powerful together. And both of those require the party members to use some of their resources (spells/day or feats) to give boosts. Thats very different from buying a magic item that significantly increases both offense and defense.
Dheran 06-18-07, 02:28 PM	This aligns with the ring of invisibility being 20K gp for invisibility 24/7. The ring works as the spell Invisibility, which has a duration of 3 minutes at the default CL 3rd. You need to expend a standard action every 3 minutes or less, forever, to keep reactivating the ring to maintain the effect going 24/7. The Cloak of Displacement, Minor is much more reliable because its effect just keeps working. On the other side, the Ring of Blinking only lasts 7 rounds before its effect stops, so that's even less convenient.
snakeman830 06-18-07, 09:56 PM	I still find the ring of blinking to be a worthwhile investment for a rogue. The 20% miss chance can easily be overcome by using ghost-touch weapons and the speed reduction can be fixed using armor of quickness (for halflings and gnomes) or boots of sprining and striding (for everyone else, though depending on your DM, the armor method works too). Meanwhile, your opponents have miss chances against you that stacks from those provided by blur/displacement. Excellent defense. After all, sure, you get 7 rounds of blink time, but how much dmage can you dish out in those seven rounds? The DM (you, quix0te) should be glad he's not a tauric blink-dog (eternal blink + free telporting that doesn't cause you to lose any actions= deadly rogue).
jaelis 06-18-07, 10:35 PM	I still find the ring of blinking to be a worthwhile investment for a rogue. The 20% miss chance can easily be overcome by using ghost-touch weapons Ghost touch doesn't help the blinking miss chance (either for the attacker or defender). You are ethereal, not incorporeal. and the speed reduction can be fixed using armor of quickness (for halflings and gnomes) or boots of sprining and striding (for everyone else, though depending on your DM, the armor method works too). Of course, when you're not blinking you'll be even faster with one of those items. Not to say that it's not a great item. It just has its down sides.
1hitparry 06-19-07, 12:26 AM	Rogues with Rings of blinking can be annoying, but a potion of See Invisibility will help level the playing field a lot. No more SA based on blinking alone. Just thought I'd throw out some counter-tactics in.
snakeman830 06-19-07, 11:42 AM	Ghost touch doesn't help the blinking miss chance (either for the attacker or defender). You are ethereal, not incorporeal. Hey, Ghosts are ethereal too, but they can pick up and use ghost-touch weapons against material foes. The blink miss chance is not negated if they can still see you (though it is reduced), they have to be able to strike you as well, hence, you are incorporeal as well as invisible.
jaelis 06-19-07, 12:12 PM	Hey, Ghosts are ethereal too, but they can pick up and use ghost-touch weapons against material foes. Only when they are manifested. When a ghost is on the ethereal plane, "it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world." I think force effects are the only exception (and they only go one way.)
DragonDan 06-19-07, 03:22 PM	A rogue in a party with a clever fighter that has a good sense of movement rules should be able to sneak attack all day long - and that's free with no base miss chance. QFT. The rogue in my local group started using Spring attack and is getting free SA every round without staying in melee (basically 100% miss chance). Dan.
tarkin 06-19-07, 06:23 PM	Spring Attack is a good strategy, and so is picking up Whirlwind after that. Get yourself a Spiked chain and you are a mass murder. Use Dust of Dissappearance, sneak into center of room. Next round, whirlwind. Repeat until every living thing in the room is dead. Should not take more than 3 rounds. Nasty trick to play on the party.
RikuKupo 06-19-07, 06:44 PM	The DM (you, quix0te) should be glad he's not a tauric blink-dog (eternal blink + free telporting that doesn't cause you to lose any actions= deadly rogue). :drool: Can't intelligent items activate themselves? Make the ring smart!