Blunt chain? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blunt chain? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
XrP-Leon The Second
09-21-05, 08:23 PM I've heard (over on the CO boards) that there is a form of blunt chain, and I Was wondering what exactly it is. I think it's against OGL to tell me it's specifics, but can someone give me a book name and page number?

Thanks if ya do!
PlaidViking
09-21-05, 08:25 PM yeah, two versions of it. One being a spiked chain without spikes, so that'd be just a chain. The other is the ball and chain, working like a flail.
chronocrosselite
09-21-05, 08:37 PM check in the Miniatures handbook.
Vaelan
09-21-05, 08:50 PM Oriental Adventures, page 70.
Nuntius128
09-21-05, 10:38 PM Change piercing damage to bludgeoning, and don't call it a Spiked Chain? :P
Draco Strang
09-22-05, 12:51 AM I think there's a large one listed in Savage Species as well. It'd be a simple matter to scale it down.
Gilgiga of the Hunt
09-22-05, 05:54 PM It's d20 modern versions is Oppen Source however.
It's a wicked weapon. 1d6 double weapon or 10 foot reach +2 to trip and disarm, free drop and weapon fenesse.

But then again melle weapons in that game are underpowered as a whole, so the chain has all that to keep up with the damage output of the guns.

Anything like that would be overkill in regular D&D.
CommanderFalken
09-22-05, 10:02 PM It's d20 modern versions is Oppen Source however.
It's a wicked weapon. 1d6 double weapon or 10 foot reach +2 to trip and disarm, free drop and weapon fenesse.

But then again melle weapons in that game are underpowered as a whole, so the chain has all that to keep up with the damage output of the guns.

Anything like that would be overkill in regular D&D.

Question: why????

It's not broken, the Spiked Chain does the same thing. In fact it deals even more (2d4) damage.
Gilgiga of the Hunt
09-22-05, 11:59 PM Really, the spiked normally dosen't allow for the double weapon ussage without the Master of Chains PrC. Normally it's just 10ft or 5ft reach, your choice.
Vaelan
09-23-05, 12:28 AM It's d20 modern versions is Oppen Source however.
It's a wicked weapon. 1d6 double weapon or 10 foot reach +2 to trip and disarm, free drop and weapon fenesse.
This particular chain is striking similar to (by which I mean exactly the same as) the Chain in Oriental Adventures.
XrP-Leon The Second
09-23-05, 12:37 AM Thanks for the info guys.

PS: Vaelon: I stole your name. It's cool :P Lots of my D&D characters are Vaelon...
Infact the one right now is Vaelon Rahl..
Tetsubo
09-23-05, 03:05 PM Question: why????

It's not broken, the Spiked Chain does the same thing. In fact it deals even more (2d4) damage.

I would argue that the spiked chain is the most broken weapon in the core rules.

It does 2d4 damage, can disarm with a +2 to the attack, can be used to Trip, can be Finessed, has Reach AND can be used against an adjacent foe.

That. Is. Broken.

It addition the logic of using a weapon that has spikes running down the length of its body is just insane.

The most damning aspect though is that no such weapon was ever developed in the entire history of hand-to-hand combat. There were chain weapons of course. The "weighted chain" called a manriki-gusari being the most famous and versatile. There was the rante which had a sort of shuriken like weight on the ends. And there was the chain combo weapons that combined such things as: spears, kama, etc. with chains.

The spiked chain was created out of complete fantasy for the D&D rules. It is the Ultimate Munchkin Weapon. It needs to be severely nerfed or dropped from the game.
Gilgiga of the Hunt
09-23-05, 06:54 PM Well in truth the spikes don't go all the way down the chain, they're on the end. The pic in the PHP is horrible depection of it.
Tetsubo
09-23-05, 07:58 PM Well in truth the spikes don't go all the way down the chain, they're on the end. The pic in the PHP is horrible depection of it.

While that would be logical, I've seen multiple images with the spikes running down the entire length of the chain. I still can't figure out why they made it a Piercing weapon. The way a chain moves would be better for a Blunt or Slashing attack. Unless you use a morningstar type of end...

I stand by my statement that the Spiked Chain is silly.
FlameLover
09-23-05, 08:27 PM I can't find the pic in the Art Gallery but someone linked to it in another thread about the infamous Spiked Chain and it depicts it like a long chain with sort of a spear head on each end and you don't "twirl" it you try and throw it straight somehow.

I suppose that's what they intended it to be but i for the life of my now can't find it!
NeueRegel
09-23-05, 08:35 PM I can't find the pic in the Art Gallery but someone linked to it in another thread about the infamous Spiked Chain and it depicts it like a long chain with sort of a spear head on each end and you don't "twirl" it you try and throw it straight somehow.

I suppose that's what they intended it to be but i for the life of my now can't find it!
A weapon with *one* spiked end like this was called the kau-sin-ke, if memory serves. I read about it decades ago; I'm not even going to google it, cuz I dun care.

As far as historical weapons, there was a "spiked chain": It was a grappling (ship-to-ship) device used during boarding attacks; And at least one story tells of a sailor using it to breach a castle wall or some such, somewhere; again, I can't quote that story either; too many years ago. I don't recall it being used like it is in D&D, as a mainstay weapon.

Good Gaming
NeueRegel
ClementWillowbreaker
09-23-05, 11:10 PM CW has the best picture of spiked chains in action, and actually made me feel good about it for the first time ever- two half-orcs ripping into a night hag...glorious.
Tetsubo
09-24-05, 03:41 AM I guess my issue is Why? Why does the Spiked Chain have SO many features? Did there have to be ONE munchkin weapon in the game? What was the design concept behind the weapon? Has anyone actually asked who created the rules for it in the 3.0/3.5 game? I'd love to know what their purpose was in making the SC as good as it is...

I know that as the weapon exists at the moment I'd never let it be used in any game I ran. Reach AND adjacent foes, cool. OR a Trip AND a Disarm attack, cool. Even a combo of any two of those abilities. But it wouldn't be Finessable. I'd make it a Bludgeoning weapon as well.

As it is written it is the Uber-Weapon in the game.

But it still isn't as silly as Mercurial weapons...
Vaelan
09-24-05, 05:47 AM I guess my issue is Why? Why does the Spiked Chain have SO many features? Did there have to be ONE munchkin weapon in the game? What was the design concept behind the weapon? Has anyone actually asked who created the rules for it in the 3.0/3.5 game? I'd love to know what their purpose was in making the SC as good as it is...

I know that as the weapon exists at the moment I'd never let it be used in any game I ran. Reach AND adjacent foes, cool. OR a Trip AND a Disarm attack, cool. Even a combo of any two of those abilities. But it wouldn't be Finessable. I'd make it a Bludgeoning weapon as well.

As it is written it is the Uber-Weapon in the game.

But it still isn't as silly as Mercurial weapons...
Compare it to the halberd.

You get +2 to disarm checks and the ability to hit people that are 10 feet away over the halberd.

In exchange, you give up a small amount of damage, +1 to the critical multiplier, the ability to set against a charge for double damage and a feat.

Further, consider how useful ability to hit people that are adjacent to you actually is. First of all, most of the utility of the spiked chain comes from being able to threaten 10 feet away as you will get more AoOs. The ability to hit opponents adjacent to you doesn't actually contribute much to this. Second, a simple 5-foot step will put them back in your threatened area.

The only time the spiked chain's trademark ability is really of any use is when you're Large and fighting Medium or Small creatures. In this case, a 5-foot step won't be enough to put them back in your threatened area with a normal reach weapon.

Overall, I am not impressed by the spiked chain. A normal reach weapon with the same abilities could easily be a martial weapon and it would be about as good as the spiked chain.
Zebek
09-24-05, 08:14 AM But it still isn't as silly as Mercurial weapons...But they only exist because someone read "Shadow of the Torturer" and thought they were cool. As executioner weapons they sound very effective; as combat weapons, I agree, no.
TekknoMancer
09-24-05, 06:52 PM What is the big deal with mercurial weapons? IIRC, they require an exotic proficiency and only threaten on a 20 in return for a bigger crit multiplier. How is this unbalanced, unless I'm missing another piece of information?

As for the spiked chain, it would be broken if it was a double-weapon (without master of chains PrC), but I really don't think it's that bad as is. Yes, it has a lot of features but does lackluster damage for a 2h weapon, has the worst crit. of x2 on a 20 only, and requires a feat. I agree that it is a very good weapon, but to call it broken...
Gilgiga of the Hunt
09-24-05, 10:28 PM I'm gonna agrre with that. Yeah, is written the spiked chain looks crazy. But it's really not that bad, seriously, so what if it makes a fighter effecent, and able to use all of his combat tricks in one go.
Compare the versitility in the ablitys granted to say that of a wizard or a cleric.
The spiked chain will absolutley rip a humanoid to shreads, worse if they're small.
Against unthinkable, tentacled beasts from beyond the 9th level of hell come a knocking I'd rather have a shield and axe and try to stay alive instead of failling to trip the thing.
Tetsubo
09-25-05, 06:48 AM What is the big deal with mercurial weapons? IIRC, they require an exotic proficiency and only threaten on a 20 in return for a bigger crit multiplier. How is this unbalanced, unless I'm missing another piece of information?

As for the spiked chain, it would be broken if it was a double-weapon (without master of chains PrC), but I really don't think it's that bad as is. Yes, it has a lot of features but does lackluster damage for a 2h weapon, has the worst crit. of x2 on a 20 only, and requires a feat. I agree that it is a very good weapon, but to call it broken...

My issue with Mercurial weapons is not about "balance".

It's about absurdity.

I'll use the Greatsword as an example: You take a perfectly good Greatsword, hollow out a cavity within the blade and fill that cavity with the most dangerous metal known to man. Now, you swing that Greatsword around in combat.

Absurdity. It's like something out of Arduin.
Tetsubo
09-25-05, 06:53 AM I'm gonna agrre with that. Yeah, is written the spiked chain looks crazy. But it's really not that bad, seriously, so what if it makes a fighter effecent, and able to use all of his combat tricks in one go.
Compare the versitility in the ablitys granted to say that of a wizard or a cleric.
The spiked chain will absolutley rip a humanoid to shreads, worse if they're small.
Against unthinkable, tentacled beasts from beyond the 9th level of hell come a knocking I'd rather have a shield and axe and try to stay alive instead of failling to trip the thing.

The Spiked Chain is just "too" good. It has too many features. Reach, attacking adjacent foes, Trip, Disarm and is Finessable.

When someone wants to make an Uber-Fighter they chose the Spiked Chain. There was no "one" weapon in the real world. There was no historical evidence of a Spiked Chain. If a real world weapon were this useful, every culture would have used it. There wouldn't have been a Culture of the Sword. It would have been the Culture of the Spiked Chain.

I'll never use the Spiked Chain as written in any campaign I run. I won't ever have a character I play use one.

Silly weapon. Silly.
Vaelan
09-25-05, 07:31 AM The Spiked Chain is just "too" good. It has too many features. Reach, attacking adjacent foes, Trip, Disarm and is Finessable.
I'll assume that you've never played with it before based on the comments at the bottom of your post.

Attacking adjacent foes isn't all that useful. It is easily emulated for a mere 50gp (armor spikes) in the rare situation you really, really need it.

Being able to use Weapon Finesse with it is also useless. The primary tactic one woud use a spiked chain for is tripping. Tripping involves opposed Strength checks. If Weapon Finesse is even worth the feat for you, you probably don't have enough Strength to trip effectively and thus you might as well not even use a spiked chain.

Further, consider that many campaigns involve creatures that have natural weapons, are Large or bigger, or have multiple legs. Against most monsters, the spiked chain is useless. There are also a number of extremely good defenses against combat maneuvers that a humanoid can employ, making it even harder to actually gain any benefit from using a spiked chain.

Further, I've DMed for a spiked chain Fighter before, and it wasn't a big deal. I suppose for some less-intelligent DMs it could be a problem. The spiked chain is balanced.
chronocrosselite
09-25-05, 08:12 AM it also takes a feat slot up too unless you watn to take penalties for using it lol

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XrP-Leon The Second 09-21-05, 08:23 PM	I've heard (over on the CO boards) that there is a form of blunt chain, and I Was wondering what exactly it is. I think it's against OGL to tell me it's specifics, but can someone give me a book name and page number? Thanks if ya do!
PlaidViking 09-21-05, 08:25 PM	yeah, two versions of it. One being a spiked chain without spikes, so that'd be just a chain. The other is the ball and chain, working like a flail.
chronocrosselite 09-21-05, 08:37 PM	check in the Miniatures handbook.
Vaelan 09-21-05, 08:50 PM	Oriental Adventures, page 70.
Nuntius128 09-21-05, 10:38 PM	Change piercing damage to bludgeoning, and don't call it a Spiked Chain? :P
Draco Strang 09-22-05, 12:51 AM	I think there's a large one listed in Savage Species as well. It'd be a simple matter to scale it down.
Gilgiga of the Hunt 09-22-05, 05:54 PM	It's d20 modern versions is Oppen Source however. It's a wicked weapon. 1d6 double weapon or 10 foot reach +2 to trip and disarm, free drop and weapon fenesse. But then again melle weapons in that game are underpowered as a whole, so the chain has all that to keep up with the damage output of the guns. Anything like that would be overkill in regular D&D.
CommanderFalken 09-22-05, 10:02 PM	It's d20 modern versions is Oppen Source however. It's a wicked weapon. 1d6 double weapon or 10 foot reach +2 to trip and disarm, free drop and weapon fenesse. But then again melle weapons in that game are underpowered as a whole, so the chain has all that to keep up with the damage output of the guns. Anything like that would be overkill in regular D&D. Question: why???? It's not broken, the Spiked Chain does the same thing. In fact it deals even more (2d4) damage.
Gilgiga of the Hunt 09-22-05, 11:59 PM	Really, the spiked normally dosen't allow for the double weapon ussage without the Master of Chains PrC. Normally it's just 10ft or 5ft reach, your choice.
Vaelan 09-23-05, 12:28 AM	It's d20 modern versions is Oppen Source however. It's a wicked weapon. 1d6 double weapon or 10 foot reach +2 to trip and disarm, free drop and weapon fenesse. This particular chain is striking similar to (by which I mean exactly the same as) the Chain in Oriental Adventures.
XrP-Leon The Second 09-23-05, 12:37 AM	Thanks for the info guys. PS: Vaelon: I stole your name. It's cool :P Lots of my D&D characters are Vaelon... Infact the one right now is Vaelon Rahl..
Tetsubo 09-23-05, 03:05 PM	Question: why???? It's not broken, the Spiked Chain does the same thing. In fact it deals even more (2d4) damage. I would argue that the spiked chain is the most broken weapon in the core rules. It does 2d4 damage, can disarm with a +2 to the attack, can be used to Trip, can be Finessed, has Reach AND can be used against an adjacent foe. That. Is. Broken. It addition the logic of using a weapon that has spikes running down the length of its body is just insane. The most damning aspect though is that no such weapon was ever developed in the entire history of hand-to-hand combat. There were chain weapons of course. The "weighted chain" called a manriki-gusari being the most famous and versatile. There was the rante which had a sort of shuriken like weight on the ends. And there was the chain combo weapons that combined such things as: spears, kama, etc. with chains. The spiked chain was created out of complete fantasy for the D&D rules. It is the Ultimate Munchkin Weapon. It needs to be severely nerfed or dropped from the game.
Gilgiga of the Hunt 09-23-05, 06:54 PM	Well in truth the spikes don't go all the way down the chain, they're on the end. The pic in the PHP is horrible depection of it.
Tetsubo 09-23-05, 07:58 PM	Well in truth the spikes don't go all the way down the chain, they're on the end. The pic in the PHP is horrible depection of it. While that would be logical, I've seen multiple images with the spikes running down the entire length of the chain. I still can't figure out why they made it a Piercing weapon. The way a chain moves would be better for a Blunt or Slashing attack. Unless you use a morningstar type of end... I stand by my statement that the Spiked Chain is silly.
FlameLover 09-23-05, 08:27 PM	I can't find the pic in the Art Gallery but someone linked to it in another thread about the infamous Spiked Chain and it depicts it like a long chain with sort of a spear head on each end and you don't "twirl" it you try and throw it straight somehow. I suppose that's what they intended it to be but i for the life of my now can't find it!
NeueRegel 09-23-05, 08:35 PM	I can't find the pic in the Art Gallery but someone linked to it in another thread about the infamous Spiked Chain and it depicts it like a long chain with sort of a spear head on each end and you don't "twirl" it you try and throw it straight somehow. I suppose that's what they intended it to be but i for the life of my now can't find it! A weapon with one spiked end like this was called the kau-sin-ke, if memory serves. I read about it decades ago; I'm not even going to google it, cuz I dun care. As far as historical weapons, there was a "spiked chain": It was a grappling (ship-to-ship) device used during boarding attacks; And at least one story tells of a sailor using it to breach a castle wall or some such, somewhere; again, I can't quote that story either; too many years ago. I don't recall it being used like it is in D&D, as a mainstay weapon. Good Gaming NeueRegel
ClementWillowbreaker 09-23-05, 11:10 PM	CW has the best picture of spiked chains in action, and actually made me feel good about it for the first time ever- two half-orcs ripping into a night hag...glorious.
Tetsubo 09-24-05, 03:41 AM	I guess my issue is Why? Why does the Spiked Chain have SO many features? Did there have to be ONE munchkin weapon in the game? What was the design concept behind the weapon? Has anyone actually asked who created the rules for it in the 3.0/3.5 game? I'd love to know what their purpose was in making the SC as good as it is... I know that as the weapon exists at the moment I'd never let it be used in any game I ran. Reach AND adjacent foes, cool. OR a Trip AND a Disarm attack, cool. Even a combo of any two of those abilities. But it wouldn't be Finessable. I'd make it a Bludgeoning weapon as well. As it is written it is the Uber-Weapon in the game. But it still isn't as silly as Mercurial weapons...
Vaelan 09-24-05, 05:47 AM	I guess my issue is Why? Why does the Spiked Chain have SO many features? Did there have to be ONE munchkin weapon in the game? What was the design concept behind the weapon? Has anyone actually asked who created the rules for it in the 3.0/3.5 game? I'd love to know what their purpose was in making the SC as good as it is... I know that as the weapon exists at the moment I'd never let it be used in any game I ran. Reach AND adjacent foes, cool. OR a Trip AND a Disarm attack, cool. Even a combo of any two of those abilities. But it wouldn't be Finessable. I'd make it a Bludgeoning weapon as well. As it is written it is the Uber-Weapon in the game. But it still isn't as silly as Mercurial weapons... Compare it to the halberd. You get +2 to disarm checks and the ability to hit people that are 10 feet away over the halberd. In exchange, you give up a small amount of damage, +1 to the critical multiplier, the ability to set against a charge for double damage and a feat. Further, consider how useful ability to hit people that are adjacent to you actually is. First of all, most of the utility of the spiked chain comes from being able to threaten 10 feet away as you will get more AoOs. The ability to hit opponents adjacent to you doesn't actually contribute much to this. Second, a simple 5-foot step will put them back in your threatened area. The only time the spiked chain's trademark ability is really of any use is when you're Large and fighting Medium or Small creatures. In this case, a 5-foot step won't be enough to put them back in your threatened area with a normal reach weapon. Overall, I am not impressed by the spiked chain. A normal reach weapon with the same abilities could easily be a martial weapon and it would be about as good as the spiked chain.
Zebek 09-24-05, 08:14 AM	But it still isn't as silly as Mercurial weapons...But they only exist because someone read "Shadow of the Torturer" and thought they were cool. As executioner weapons they sound very effective; as combat weapons, I agree, no.
TekknoMancer 09-24-05, 06:52 PM	What is the big deal with mercurial weapons? IIRC, they require an exotic proficiency and only threaten on a 20 in return for a bigger crit multiplier. How is this unbalanced, unless I'm missing another piece of information? As for the spiked chain, it would be broken if it was a double-weapon (without master of chains PrC), but I really don't think it's that bad as is. Yes, it has a lot of features but does lackluster damage for a 2h weapon, has the worst crit. of x2 on a 20 only, and requires a feat. I agree that it is a very good weapon, but to call it broken...
Gilgiga of the Hunt 09-24-05, 10:28 PM	I'm gonna agrre with that. Yeah, is written the spiked chain looks crazy. But it's really not that bad, seriously, so what if it makes a fighter effecent, and able to use all of his combat tricks in one go. Compare the versitility in the ablitys granted to say that of a wizard or a cleric. The spiked chain will absolutley rip a humanoid to shreads, worse if they're small. Against unthinkable, tentacled beasts from beyond the 9th level of hell come a knocking I'd rather have a shield and axe and try to stay alive instead of failling to trip the thing.
Tetsubo 09-25-05, 06:48 AM	What is the big deal with mercurial weapons? IIRC, they require an exotic proficiency and only threaten on a 20 in return for a bigger crit multiplier. How is this unbalanced, unless I'm missing another piece of information? As for the spiked chain, it would be broken if it was a double-weapon (without master of chains PrC), but I really don't think it's that bad as is. Yes, it has a lot of features but does lackluster damage for a 2h weapon, has the worst crit. of x2 on a 20 only, and requires a feat. I agree that it is a very good weapon, but to call it broken... My issue with Mercurial weapons is not about "balance". It's about absurdity. I'll use the Greatsword as an example: You take a perfectly good Greatsword, hollow out a cavity within the blade and fill that cavity with the most dangerous metal known to man. Now, you swing that Greatsword around in combat. Absurdity. It's like something out of Arduin.
Tetsubo 09-25-05, 06:53 AM	I'm gonna agrre with that. Yeah, is written the spiked chain looks crazy. But it's really not that bad, seriously, so what if it makes a fighter effecent, and able to use all of his combat tricks in one go. Compare the versitility in the ablitys granted to say that of a wizard or a cleric. The spiked chain will absolutley rip a humanoid to shreads, worse if they're small. Against unthinkable, tentacled beasts from beyond the 9th level of hell come a knocking I'd rather have a shield and axe and try to stay alive instead of failling to trip the thing. The Spiked Chain is just "too" good. It has too many features. Reach, attacking adjacent foes, Trip, Disarm and is Finessable. When someone wants to make an Uber-Fighter they chose the Spiked Chain. There was no "one" weapon in the real world. There was no historical evidence of a Spiked Chain. If a real world weapon were this useful, every culture would have used it. There wouldn't have been a Culture of the Sword. It would have been the Culture of the Spiked Chain. I'll never use the Spiked Chain as written in any campaign I run. I won't ever have a character I play use one. Silly weapon. Silly.
Vaelan 09-25-05, 07:31 AM	The Spiked Chain is just "too" good. It has too many features. Reach, attacking adjacent foes, Trip, Disarm and is Finessable. I'll assume that you've never played with it before based on the comments at the bottom of your post. Attacking adjacent foes isn't all that useful. It is easily emulated for a mere 50gp (armor spikes) in the rare situation you really, really need it. Being able to use Weapon Finesse with it is also useless. The primary tactic one woud use a spiked chain for is tripping. Tripping involves opposed Strength checks. If Weapon Finesse is even worth the feat for you, you probably don't have enough Strength to trip effectively and thus you might as well not even use a spiked chain. Further, consider that many campaigns involve creatures that have natural weapons, are Large or bigger, or have multiple legs. Against most monsters, the spiked chain is useless. There are also a number of extremely good defenses against combat maneuvers that a humanoid can employ, making it even harder to actually gain any benefit from using a spiked chain. Further, I've DMed for a spiked chain Fighter before, and it wasn't a big deal. I suppose for some less-intelligent DMs it could be a problem. The spiked chain is balanced.
chronocrosselite 09-25-05, 08:12 AM	it also takes a feat slot up too unless you watn to take penalties for using it lol