Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ged Coldplain 06-29-05, 03:41 PM	if you check the sai in 3.5 its stated to be a BLUNT weapon.... anyone want to say someting about this fact?
Vahenir 06-29-05, 04:00 PM	What would you like to hear? Historically speaking - sai are bludgeoning weapons. They're a handle connected to three prongs, two of which are cylindrical and terminate a few inches (around 4) before the center prong. The center prong is cylindrical as well, with a rounded or flat tip. The sai is used to trap an enemy weapon, and deliver quick, sharp blows to an unprotected body. They are not cutting or piercing utensils by a longshot. The stats are absolutely correct.
tarkin 06-29-05, 04:46 PM	He wants to hear "What idiot made this agricultural implement designed to move vegetables blunt, don't they know it would be so much better at killing people if they made it sharp?"
Vahenir 06-29-05, 05:01 PM	He wants to hear "What idiot made this agricultural implement designed to move vegetables blunt, don't they know it would be so much better at killing people if they made it sharp?" Oooh. Ahem. What idiot made this agricultural implement designed to move vegetables BLUNT?! Don't they know it would be so much better at killing people if they made it sharp?! Idiots. Everyone at WotC is on drugs! Better?
Creeg 06-29-05, 05:08 PM	LOL, to be fair, a sai could be made piercing rather easily (I know it wasn't, but so many are floating around out there today that are)
Surreal 06-29-05, 05:20 PM	I've got these really wicked sharpened plowshears...
Vahenir 06-29-05, 05:30 PM	Yes, theoretically you could sharpen a sai. If you want to retain its utility as a SAI, however, you'd only be able to cut away at the very -very- tip, creating something resembling the end of a screwdriver. If you actually attempted to make a sai with 'edges' though - you'd destroy its utility - it would no longer be useful for its intended purpose and you'd be better off with a main-gauche anyway. But the 3rd Edition Sai stats represent a real sai, not a customized sai like one sharpened at the tip.
Quarterstaff 06-29-05, 05:37 PM	also if you gave a sigh edges you would destroy your hand. on a sigh your fingers come up around the prongs. you would cut all your fingers off if you tried to use it effectivly.
Vahenir 06-29-05, 05:44 PM	That's what the 'ricasso' on almost every bladed weapon like daggers and swords is for. A sharpened blade is almost -never- sharpened all the way to the hilt. But that doesn't change the point that making a 'dagger-sai' essentially ruins its utility.
Ged Coldplain 07-02-05, 03:48 PM	http://www.8ung.at/budokan/Sai.jpg The Sai does/shoud not have sharpened eges but if you poke someone with the tip it shoud do P-dmg !!! only way to do blunt dmg with the Sai is if you hit with the but end or slapp some ones fingers with it...
Shaken, not Stunned 07-02-05, 03:59 PM	This concept is present in D&D, reflected by the damage of the musket and pistol in the DMG (both piercing from a round ball). I wonder why they left this as budgeoning. House rule it. A sai may deal either bludgeoning or piercing, chosen at the manufacture of the weapon. It may not deal both. There, that should work.
Nidair 07-02-05, 04:26 PM	That sounds strange. Let me explain. As (I hope) all of you know, the idea of a bludgeoning weapon is to pound at the foe with a heavy object. The mace, war hammer, and greatclub. All share the same purpose: damaging someone by putting force behind it. The sai, however, does not. The edge of the weapon not be sharp like a dagger, but you can't use it like you use a mace. Wizards obviously uses the shape of the weapon as a basis for damage types (which usually works) instead of wielding style. But that can be fixed quite easily right?
narukagami 07-02-05, 04:56 PM	This reminds me somewhat of the debate of swords and other bladed weapons being allowed to do multiple damage types, like the dagger. In the thread they brought up the point (no pun intended) that if you change the damage type listing to multiple types, it will greatly unbalance weapons in the sense of overcoming DR against specific types. Realisticly, a sword could do a 3 types, slash with the edge, peirce with a stab, and blugeon with a pommel strike. This, as I stated, essentially makes them the absolute best weapons in the game as one weapon could be used to overcome 3 different types of common DR. What does this have to do with the thread you ask? Simple, it comes down to the "most common use" argument. Another argument about why weapons are listed as they are was "That is the most commonly used method of striking". Sai, as a weapon, are actually used mostly for disarming and blugeoning, even if it had a sharpened tip I wouldn't change its listed damage type. Why? Because I assume that that is how the PC is using it unless he says otherwise. Sure you could stab with it, but unless I, as a DM, hear the words "I'm going to stab him/her/it" I apply the damage as listed rather than piercing even if the PC has a sai with a sharpened tip. I do the same with swords, unless the PC specifies otherwise I always treat the damage as listed. I even do this with other weapons, such a spears, but apply an improvised weapon penatly and change the damage (example, treat spear used to blugeon as a quarterstaff) under the justification that the weapon, while could concievably be used this way, just wasn't built with that intention in mind. Sure, it tips the scales of DR balance a little, but it tilts them in favor of realism. Basicly, treat the sai as blugeoning damage. If your PC says "I'm gonna stab him with the sharpened tip" then call it peircing.
Edymnion 07-02-05, 04:59 PM	It should be noted that one of the major fighting styles involving the sai is to actually hold it by the tongs and hit people with the handle. Another is to hold it by the grip, and keep the tongs down along your forearm. You try and stab somebody with a sai, and they're going to laugh at you :P
Count Arioch the 28th 07-02-05, 08:55 PM	Depends on hard you stabbed with it. Technically, you can stab someone with a brick if you pushed hard enough.
Edymnion 07-02-05, 08:58 PM	Depends on hard you stabbed with it. Technically, you can stab someone with a brick if you pushed hard enough.:rofl: Yes, you could stab someone with a sai, but you could club someone to death with a sword too, but thats not the way the weapon was intended to be used. Not that it wouldn't be effective...
narukagami 07-02-05, 09:03 PM	Just use common sense and quit the nitpicking. :P
Tyler Do'Urden 07-02-05, 09:21 PM	Idunno... I've seen vintage Okinawan sai. Getting poked with the end might not be the same as being impaled on a rapier, but my will it hurt. But yeah, sai are bludgeoning weapons. I suppose if you stab really hard and really fast with some of the newer ones, it could go through somebody. But then, in a really good skydiving accident, you can cut a man's leg off with your arm. Doesn't mean you're a slashing weapon. A lot of martial arts and peasant weapons were designed to level the playing field with the samurai/hwarang/shogun/etc. Taekwondo for example involves a lot of acrobatic jumping kicks that are ideal for knocking someone off a horse. Sai are bludgeoning because they were used to break katana (catch the end of the blade between the tongs of one and smack the middle as hard as you can with the other). Piercing weapons can't be used to sunder. If you sharpen a sai, it's not a sai anymore; it's a dagger. EDIT: And for the record, the sai was always a bludgeoning weapon. This is not a change in 3.5; it was like that in 3.0 too.
Edymnion 07-02-05, 09:23 PM	Sai are bludgeoning because they were used to break katana (catch the end of the blade between the tongs of one and smack the middle as hard as you can with the other).*gasp* Break a katana? But katanas are super swords that can cut through anything and can't be broken by anyone short of God himself! ... Sorry, I just couldn't resist :P
Green Cobra 07-02-05, 09:27 PM	thanks for contributing nothing to this threat with the aforementioned katana bashing post(no matter how sarcastically) Though it's hardly "official" I remember watching Raphael use his sais, wether he was disarming opponents, blocking or beating them down, i hardly remember him outright stabbing.
Shaken, not Stunned 07-02-05, 09:33 PM	Yea, well I never saw the dude with the sword cut anyone. There you have it folks. For the record, the katana bashing gets my approval.
Green Cobra 07-02-05, 09:36 PM	Leonardo. :cool: I never said it was the truth, nor correct, did I? I was merely providing my experience seeing them used (fictional or realisitc). Then again, D&D is fictional, so anything also could happen. And hey, I don't exact idolize any weapon either, but bashing it solely because others praise it is stupid.
was_fired 07-02-05, 09:36 PM	Nonsense they cut through each other all the time. The rule with kantana's is that the one with the longest backstory wins. So your weapon forged merely by the greatest masters in the world is no match for my sword forged in the fires of mount doom with the hope of my people and the...
narukagami 07-02-05, 11:53 PM	Here we go again :rolleyes: Katana bashing on these boards are starting to get as annoying, idiotic, and immature as the sha-PING praise threads. How about we stick on topic and stop with the childish nonsense.
Shaken, not Stunned 07-03-05, 12:33 AM	Because childish non-sense is the basis of D&D. In fact, it is the whole of D&D. D&D is just childish non-sense with rules to prevent it to degrading into monotonous childish non-sense. So before you go bashing childish non-sense, think about the children and the game designers you are hurting, you souless sentient. I'm done... yea, I'm done.
tyranith_of_hextor 07-03-05, 12:40 AM	Um... yeah. T's cuz they are blunt. As, I think it was Quarterstaff said, You wrap your fingures around the prongs. Yeah, the movie Elektra was just completely wrong. They're defensive weapons, not offensive. Believe me, My brother, owns a pair of Sais, and they're blunt. Plus, he's a almost a black belt in Hapkido and taking a bunch of other martial arts, like Brazilian Jujitzu, which, I think, involves effectivley using weapons. Or was that Modern Arnise? Or maybe... But, yes, they're blunt! ;)
NeueRegel 07-03-05, 12:54 AM	Yes, they are blunt. And D&D does not do them justice. d4 my a$$. When I was young, taking martial arts, My sensai and I sparred with a variety of weapons. Among the mix, one was me-with-staff and him-with-sai(s). He never hit me with them; but he connected with the staff a hundred times in those sessions. There is exactly one comparison to that feeling that I can make: Being hit with a tire-iron. Two or three strikes, and your hands feel like fire, and your forearms are numb; simply from the transfer of shock through the wood of the staff! Slap across the fingers, INDEED. Sai should do d6, bludgeoning damage. Maybe d4 bludgeoning damage for a tip/pommel poke-blow. If I ever have a player choose to use sai, I may well simply house rule it so. NeueRegel
Thorak 07-03-05, 02:19 AM	Yes, they are blunt. And D&D does not do them justice. d4 my a$$. The issue here is D&D's damage system. If they wanted realistic combat, you wouldn't gain hit points every level, you'd gain a better ability to deflect and reduce damage. But stabbing someone with a sword would probably kill them, even if they're 20th level. The HP system tries to approximate this by increasing the HP instead, making each 'hit' actually less effective as you get better, but it means that the ability of a high-level warrior type to simply not get hurt doesn't really exist in D&D. Unfortunately. It's one of the big weaknesses I see in the system.
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-03-05, 02:34 AM	*strangles makes of Daredevil and Electra* Look, Sais aren't 'hurl people' weaons, they're sword breakers. They catch the sword, they parry the sword, occasionally -- OCCASIONALLY, they get in a good, hard rap on yout oppenet's knuckles. If you are ever in a situation where you are attacking with your swordbreaker... you're going to die. Why? Because you're attacking a man with a blade with a notched stick. 'But what about dual wielded sais, Vaal?' Quiet boy, grandpa's talking. Yes, about dual weilded Sais... Notice how long the grip is on a sai? Well that's so your hand forms a nice, tight fist around it and can quickly switch positions while parrying. 'Why would you want to make a fist when you're armed, Vaal?' Stop interuppting Timmy. The reason you want to make a fist is because you aren't armed. You are defended by two parrying devices. Your offence comes from the face that now that your sword weilding opponent has his weapons caught in the tines/notches of your swordbreaker -- You punch the bugger in the face. Or, if you're smarter and not a monk, you only have one 'breaker and then you stab the guy because he's too pig stupid to have a shield or his own breaker.
High Octane 07-03-05, 10:36 AM	Yes, they are blunt. And D&D does not do them justice. d4 my a$$. When I was young, taking martial arts, My sensai and I sparred with a variety of weapons. Among the mix, one was me-with-staff and him-with-sai(s). He never hit me with them; but he connected with the staff a hundred times in those sessions. There is exactly one comparison to that feeling that I can make: Being hit with a tire-iron. Two or three strikes, and your hands feel like fire, and your forearms are numb; simply from the transfer of shock through the wood of the staff! Slap across the fingers, INDEED. Sai should do d6, bludgeoning damage. Maybe d4 bludgeoning damage for a tip/pommel poke-blow. If I ever have a player choose to use sai, I may well simply house rule it so. NeueRegel A light HAMMER is d4! I would say a light hammer is akin to a tire iron.
NeueRegel 07-03-05, 11:00 AM	Heyas friends, I was not *really* suggesting that the damage of the sai be changed to d6. I was just trying to drive home the point of my experiences with them as blunt weapons. We play core 3.5 all the way; We do not allow any rules changes of any type, nor inclusion of any class, weapon, etc not in the PHB, DMG, or the SRD, RAW. No worries :) Neue
Starmage21 07-03-05, 11:16 AM	it should also be noted that Sai(sais?) have always been blunt. HOLLYWOOD made them sharp. Jitte>Sai
narukagami 07-03-05, 11:19 AM	it should also be noted that Sai(sais?) have always been blunt. HOLLYWOOD made them sharp. Jitte>Sai Truth, and hells yeah.
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-03-05, 01:02 PM	We play core 3.5 all the way; We do not allow any rules changes of any type, nor inclusion of any class, weapon, etc not in the PHB, DMG, or the SRD, RAW. No worries :) This actually worries me a lot.
FrznFury 07-03-05, 04:37 PM	(I hated Elektra, saw it last night. My time would have been better spent sleeping.) First of all, who out here actually owns a d3? I actually found a way to make one, but its so crude that I'm going to wait and find a nice metal one to match my other dice. (Even if I have to make that one myself, too.) Sai are bludgoning weapons, period. See that big lead ball on the pommel? That's the business end if you absolutely must have one. Although they definitely don't deserve a d3. Brass Knuckles are a d3 (Co-incidentally, a roll of lifesavers will serve almost the same purpose, for a while.) Maybe allow them to convert nonlethal unarmed damage to lethal (No sense for monks, but just in case.) when they're used to deliver an unarmed strike. Thus is the grip employed. This may require some work but something connected to sunder for a dual-wielder would be nice. Only a proficient wielder can make effective use of the d4 pommel blow.
Vahenir 07-04-05, 02:16 PM	Someone mentioned damage types earlier, so I think it's necessary to go over them: Slashing damage = breaking the skin with a long cut. Or at least an attempt to do so. Piercing damage = the weapon actually PIERCING the body. Hence the name. If it isn't meant to go -into- your opponent, it can't be piercing. Bludgeoning damage = blunt trauma. A sai is MOST ASSUREDLY the latter. A sai is never meant to be jammed -into- someone, it's jammed -against- them. It creates a pinpoint area of blunt trauma in a thrust, but it is not a piercing weapon. It's important to note that 'piercing' is not 'thrusting.' Thrusting is a motion - piercing is a type of damage. I could thrust with a hammer, that doesn't make it piercing, however. A sai is -completely- blunt, and therefore it can only inflict blunt trauma - i.e. bludgeoning damage.
Rulebook 07-04-05, 07:23 PM	somebody mentione the ninja turtles a while back, and about them never really sticking people with thier weapons... this is obviously a product of only watching the cartoons, and never reading the older, darker comic books. Raphael was a single minded psychopath pretty much. He commonly put his sai's through his opponents to the point where you could see all three tines. this still does not mean that they're peircing weapons though, as the ninja turtles are all ungodly brute strong (as seen in some of the feats of car flipping and etc they used to do) and on a side note, Leonardo was a ginsu machine with those swords too. his kill count was probably LOWER than Raph's though. i think Mikey was the only one that didnt kill too many people. (not counting the ones Don hits that wind up surviving...) Ive seen demonstrations of sai fighting before... they're definately used as weapon-catching clubs though. catch a weapon, or if you get an opening safely, pound on whatever portion of thier body is convienient.
Vahenir 07-04-05, 08:00 PM	I'll vouche for that - the ol' TMNT comics were pretty gruesome. But the cartoon was definitely very tame. I mean, Leo had swords, and the only thing he ever CUT with them were robots or the like. He never stabbed or cut a real person in the cartoons. Also, in the cartoons and the old comics - Raph's sai were usually basically knives with parrying bars on them, for some reason. But the funny thing is - if you watch the first TMNT movie - Raph's sai that he loses (which you get a really really good shots of) is quite clearly a real sai - totally blunt and rounded at the end. And in my experience with sai-use, there's a lot of 'thrusting' maneuvers used to damage your opponent, but it's still blunt trauma, not a piercing stab. For example, if you hit someone hard enough with a sai-thrust, you can break a rib, or kill them with a good jab to the throat. But unless you're like the real TMNT- ungodly strong -the sai isn't going to end up -inside- anyone.
ehrin 07-04-05, 11:18 PM	And no one in their right mind weilds sai with their fingers wrapped across the cross bar. All it takes is one "catch" of a staff or club to smash your fingers into a bloody pulp against those metal cross tangs, and you will remember WHY the inventor put that bar of iron ahead of his hand on the tang. Keep your fingers on one side of the cross bar, or the other. Not across it.
Xeviat-DM 07-05-05, 12:04 AM	The grip I've seen sai's held in is with the "handle" sticking between the ring and middle finger of a fist, with the "blade" and "prongs" along the inside of the forearm. Then, with a flick/swing of the wrist backwards, the "blade" and "prongs" are brought flying into an open spot, preferably the head. A dextrous person can quickly turn this grip to holding the "handle" and catching a sword. You wouldnt hold your fingers around the prongs if you intended to catch a sword because the sword would hit your fingers, unless you're going to do a parrying catch (since a straight catch would probably break your sai; while I'm not a katana fanboy, I do think that a sharpened sword like the katana, or a broadsword even, would do some damage to a sai on a direct hit) and catch the side of the sword as it comes down at you, pushing it away and locking it up. As for a stab, you can stab with a sword but most people don't do it (it leaves you open; if you don't kill the opponent you're going to be in a bad possition to defend yourself). An axe slashes but it isn't sharpened. A sai, though not sharpened, will pierce if you hit a reinforced area like the chest. The real warhammer an SCA friend of mine has doesnt even have a flat head, it has four prongs so it will catch armor and not slide; against a head that would pierce before the rest of the head was smashed into so much brain-goo. The way I do things in my game is that a weapon can be used as an alternate damage type, within reason, for a -4 penalty to hit, since that is a sub-optimal method of using the weapon. Flat of the blade is subdual damage; pommel is akin to gauntlet damage.