Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dark_kindness 09-12-05, 04:23 AM	This has probably been asked before, but since I can't seem to find the search function :twitch:, I'll ask it again. What are your thoughts on statting a bokken/suburito (Japanese wooden swords, usually used for training in Aikido, Kempo, etc...) for D&D? I've given thought to using club or greatclub stats, or just treating them as Ironwood versions of Katanas (though that somehow doesn't feel quite right). Another point of interest is whether to allow Monks to wield them without penalty and perhaps, though I have no doubt that it would be unbalancing, with their more favorable number of attacks. Anyway, it's way too late for me to think about this one anymore... anyone's thoughts are appreciated!
RaspK FOG 09-12-05, 04:44 AM	This has probably been asked before, but since I can't seem to find the search function :twitch:, I'll ask it again. What are your thoughts on statting a bokken/suburito (Japanese wooden swords, usually used for training in Aikido, Kempo, etc...) for D&D? I've given thought to using club or greatclub stats, or just treating them as Ironwood versions of Katanas (though that somehow doesn't feel quite right). Another point of interest is whether to allow Monks to wield them without penalty and perhaps, though I have no doubt that it would be unbalancing, with their more favorable number of attacks. Anyway, it's way too late for me to think about this one anymore... anyone's thoughts are appreciated! First of all, the weapon should have the hit points of a large (great-axe or soemthing), wooden-hafted weapon. Secondly, and while it might be also good to deal less damage, I would be against it; instead, I think the weapon should best deal bludgeoning and nonlethal damage. As we all know, you can deal lethal damage with such a weapon by taking a -4 penalty on your attacks, so this should not be of much import.
Vahenir 09-12-05, 04:47 AM	Wasters (the generic term for a wooden version of a weapon) are just wooden swords. I don't feel they need a lot of special rules. In my games, wasters are treated exactly the same as the type of weapon they are trying to duplicate, except the damage die falls by one die (such as from 1d8 to 1d6). The weapon should obviously become a bludgeoning weapon, as well. In my opinion -- this makes the most sense. Treating a wooden sword as a club, for example, defeats the entire purpose of the wooden sword. Wooden weapons are meant to train you in the ways of using that particular weapon. Learning how to use a club (for example, Weapon Focus: Club) isn't going to help you use a sword any better. So if you treat a wooden sword as a club, how exactly is it teaching the person to use a sword better? Quite silly. So a bokken would be 1d8 19-20/x2 bludgeoning weapon that is treated in all respects as a bastard sword.
FlameLover 09-12-05, 04:55 AM	Why drop the damage die though? I would just make it deal non-lethal damage. It's designed for training so it's not designed to be killing anyone... EDIt: Ofcourse this only works for some weapons. Like when you make a wooden one it's not only noe made of wood but would have smooth edges and points now so that explains the nonlethal bit (otherwise if they are just wood they could still slash into your chest, etc.)
Yanagita Kunio 09-12-05, 05:05 AM	A bokken is pretty much a club, in spite of its sword-like shape. Lacking the cutting edge, there's really not much justification for katana-like stats, since what makes a katana viable is the way the blade curve and tip design facilitate a drawing cut. The same motion/mechanics wouldn't really help a bludgeon much, either in terms of damage die or critical properties. Monk weapon? Up for negotiation. In spite of having a long martial arts traditions, the bokken is a practice tool for soldiers [the bushi social class] more than an implement of ascetic/contemplative martial artists. However, I really think it would be up to a DM. Since a Monk is proficient with a club, I'd say they could use it as a weapon just fine, so the in-game logic is there. Presumably if the club can be used for a flurry then so can a bokken. On the other hand, it's neither fish nor fowl...as a training tool you wield it like a sword, yet it damages like a club...so I could also see an argument that the application style renders it different than a club. Given this line I could see it as the "martial" weapon, reflecting its pairing with a military sword, as well as the fact the Musashi aside, a bokken is a two-handed or hand-and-a-half weapon. Given this case: martial weapon, d8 damage, two-handed [one-handed, 1d6 damage], critical x2. If one take proficiency in a katana, one gets bokken proficiency for free. Katana weapon proficiency feats do not, however, stack, reflecting the limitations of translating the techniques of a cutting implement to a bludgeon. No can one apply battojutsu to a bokken, as it has no saya, nor a shape amenable to a draw-and-strike motion [battou/iaijutsu practitioners use a wholly different training sword]. A bokken doesn't match the weight of a greatclub [although the ones simulating nodachi do...looks like giant cricket bat....], so doesn't damage as much [They can crack a head. Just not as well as a Fijian club can. And I have a bokken and three Fijian warclubs within reach, and can testify to their relative head-cracking merit]. Kewl anecdotes aside, it's a tool before it's a weapon, and that graceful katana design with the slight curve actually works against its utility as a club even as it simulates the blade. What makes a good sword doesn't make a good bludgeon: you're likely to get one or two beatings-to-death out of a standard bokken before its ready for a woodpile [as opposed to a Fijian warclub, which is a masterful piece of woodcraft perfected for killing someone with one or two hits, and sturdy enough to not incur central structural damage]. Even the famous duels won with bokken weren't won with "real" bokken designed for practive; the swordsmen [yes, Musashi was one, but there were others] improvised wooden swords from heavy objects like oars that they trimmed down somewhat...ie they were using a big club-like stick, not a bokken in the sense of a carefully-shaped simulation of a katana.
Vahenir 09-12-05, 06:01 AM	Why drop the damage die though? I would just make it deal non-lethal damage. It's designed for training so it's not designed to be killing anyone... Why drop the damage die? Because a strike from the edge of a sword-shaped piece of wood shouldn't be quite as dangerous as from a metal edge, unless some kind of master craftsmanship or magic is incorporated. Why not lethal damage? Because a waster is more than capable of breaking bones and even killing. As a practitioner of martial arts (mostly concerned with European Medieval combat) I have -seen- people go down with pretty severe injuries from not respecting the capabilities of a waster. A bokken is pretty much a club, in spite of its sword-like shape. But it's designed, and usually weighted, to be used -just like a sword- would be used. I couldn't, honestly, care less what kind of stats a person chooses to use for a waster. The only sticking point is that a waster/bokken should be treated, for all purposes, as the weapon that it's emulating. Otherwise you've just completely ignored the entire point of wasters.
Nuntius128 09-12-05, 07:10 AM	I couldn't, honestly, care less what kind of stats a person chooses to use for a waster. The only sticking point is that a waster/bokken should be treated, for all purposes, as the weapon that it's emulating. Otherwise you've just completely ignored the entire point of wasters. At which point, one might say you were... wasting your time? :rimshot:
Vahenir 09-12-05, 07:18 AM	Ooooh... zing.
Nuntius128 09-12-05, 07:21 AM	Ooooh... zing. Thank you, thank you. :P
Keenath 09-12-05, 10:09 AM	I'm right there beside Venahir; the only complaint is that I'd reduce the critical to only x2. Bludgeoning weapons generally don't deal much damage, and weapons with a wooden striking surface are always inferior to metal bludgeons of the same class and handedness (compare: heavy mace vs. club). A greatclub is full two-handed and deals 1d10 x2, so a theoretical "bastard club" should deal 1d8 x2. That's the stats I'd go for on a bokken. Allow it, as a special rule, to work with Weapon Focus and EWP feats that would work for a katana, but not Improved Critical or Weapon Specialization, which (in my opinion) would involve using the cutting blade more effectively. In fact, I think this would make good rules for a "waster" designed to mimic any sword -- deal the same damage as a wooden club of its same size, but allow WF and proficiency feats to apply as if it were the real thing. If you want a non-lethal training sword, look no further than the Shinai, made of bundled bamboo slats. Even a clean hit with a shinai will bruise and sting, but rarely break bones. For a shinai, use 1d4 x2, hand-and-a-half, deals non-lethal damage unless the target has armor (as the whip), and allows the use of WF and EWP feats for Katana. Yes, the shinai would be a very weak weapon in this case, which is appropriate -- it's not a weapon, it's a training device.
mvincent 09-12-05, 01:12 PM	A Bokken is useful for training for sword use, but if you are using it in actual combat it is effectively a club. As such, monks can wield them without penalty (but no flurry, which wouldn't make sense anyway). However, I would probably allow someone to use sword related feats with a wooden sword (not necessarily because it makes sense*, but merely because it's cool). *They may be shaped similarly, but the techniques used to be effective with a blunt weapon are different from those used for sharp ones.
LordofNightmares 09-12-05, 01:24 PM	*They may be shaped similarly, but the techniques used to be effective with a blunt weapon are different from those used for sharp ones. That is so freaking wrong. A Boku-toh/Bokken is weighted and balanced similarly to a katana, and even cuts through the air similarly. I've seen my sensai cut through wet Bamboo bundles, supposedly as dense as a human, with a bokken. So, yes the katana specific feats a character has should apply when he is using a bokken. Just becuase the weapon is a wooden blunt weapon does not mean its all that different from a sword. In my games a Bokken is statted like a club, but applies all of the katana feats the weilder has.
Keenath 09-12-05, 01:52 PM	A Boku-toh/Bokken is weighted and balanced similarly to a katana, and even cuts through the air similarly. I've seen my sensai cut through wet Bamboo bundles, supposedly as dense as a human, with a bokken.It depends on how sharp you've made your bokken. Most of the ones I see have a fairly blunt edge that cuts like a baseball bat. I think I recall reading that some senseis will use sharpened bokken for training tip-control, but I seriously doubt a thing like that would really cut flesh very effectively. A single wet tatami, rolled up, is supposed to be equivalent to an arm or leg, but has no bone (which SIGNIFICANTLY changes the difficulty of the cut!), while four mats rolled together represent a torso (again, with no ribs). That your sensei could cut one with a bokken speaks more for the skill of the sensei, I should think, than the sharpness of the wooden blade.
dark_kindness 09-12-05, 02:15 PM	Thanks for all of the insights, everyone. The option that I like best for my game here is to treat a bokken/waster as a blunt, wooden version of the weapon that is being imitated. Thus, I'll be treating a bokken as a 1d8 bludgeoning weapon with an x2 critical modifier with the rule added that if you're proficient in either katana or bokken, you're proficient in the other. I doubt that I'll allow the overlap of other feats.
mvincent 09-12-05, 02:21 PM	That is so freaking wrong. A Boku-toh/Bokken is weighted and balanced similarly to a katana, and even cuts through the air similarly.Katana techniques are optimized when cutting into/through things. The effects the weapon has on the target actually plays a big part in how it's optimally wielded (especially when we're talking about feat level training). I've seen my sensai cut through wet Bamboo bundles, supposedly as dense as a human, with a bokken.My own Sensai was rarely attacked by bamboo bundles. In my games a Bokken is statted like a club, but applies all of the katana feats the weilder has.That was exactly what I recommended.
LordofNightmares 09-12-05, 02:38 PM	My own Sensai was rarely attacked by bamboo bundles. Well, he wasn't, but when a junior instructor set up some bamboo manequins and was trying to cut them clean through with his sword, and failing drastically, the senior instructor came inot the dojo, scolded the junior instrucor, then gave us all a long lecture on how showing off infront of the junior students was bad, and then cut one clean in half with his bokken, in an almost perfect iaijutsu strike. As for his Bokken, its moderatly blunt, no cutting edge to it at all, but does have a taper similar to that of a real katana, exacly like the bokken we train with. As for it being his skill, thats exactly how having the katana feats apply to the bokken fits in. A master with the Katana is a master with the bokken.
Vahenir 09-12-05, 02:50 PM	As for it being his skill, thats exactly how having the katana feats apply to the bokken fits in. A master with the Katana is a master with the bokken. Sort of, yeah. In any event, any feat/ability that you have which applies to a sword -absolutely must- apply to the waster version of that sword as well. Otherwise the entire point of a waster has been ignored, which is silly. "I've learned how to do X with a sword thanks to training with this bokken. Unfortunately, I can't show you -- because I can't actually do it with the bokken, only a real sword." Or worse... "I've learned how to do X with a bokken. Unfortunately, I can't do it with a real sword, because I only took the feat to apply to clubs, which is what my DM says my bokken is..."
Inigo Carmine 09-12-05, 04:24 PM	1) I would treat the proficiency of the wooden training weapon as the procifciency of the weapon it seeks to immitate. The things are made the have the same weight and balance. It's meant to teach you how to use the real thing. 2) The damage would be bludgeoning, I don't think anyone is arguing about this point. 3) The damage would be lessened by roughly 2 steps (in this case, a 1d6 weapon). Just because it's the same weight and balance doesn't mean it will inflict the same kind of damage. Slashing weapons work by transfering energy into a very small area. Technically, a blunt instrument of the same weight and balance will transfer the same energy, but since it's over a much larger area, the 'damage" will always be less* (see below for exceptions). This is also ignoring matters of "hardness" compared to metal and wood, but that is less significant, but the wood also reduces some of the damage by being more shock absorbant than metal. This difference between sharp and blunt why you can run the flat of a knife against your skin without it doing anything to you, but not the edge of a knife. Same energy, but the edge concentrates this energy to the point where it breaks the bonds that hold your skin together. Besides, if the training weapons are just as effective as the real weapon, what's the point of the real weapon? 4) The damage would actually be lethal. LETHAL?!! But it's a training weapon!!. Yes. When you train with it, you're (usually) not actually trying to kill the other person. Believe it or not, you can use a full-fledged sharp katana for training. The problem is, accidents happen. With the training weapon, when an accident happens, someone gets something broken and is possibly unconscious (it does less damage, and it's bludgeoning). With the actual weapon, when an accident happens, someone gets disembowled, loses a limb, and is most likely in shock or dead. It doesn't take much extra effort to kill someone with a boken if that's your goal. It does take extra effort to kill someone with a sap if that's your goal. *except the following cases: A) The Sharp weapon causes absolutely no damage to the object, in which case the blunt weapon will do the same (therefore it does the same damage, not less). IE attacking the solid diamond structure. B) The blunt weapon completely destroys the target (and the sharp weapon completely destroys the target, therefore both doing the same damage) C) The sharp weapon cuts cleanly through the object and still has momentum coming out the other side. Not all of the damage potential was used up. The blunt weapon will likely do more damage in this case, because all of it will be absorbed. If the blunt weapon goes clean through with momentum coming out the other side, see case B
mvincent 09-12-05, 04:35 PM	In any event, any feat/ability that you have which applies to a sword -absolutely must- apply to the waster version of that sword as well. Otherwise the entire point of a waster has been ignored, which is silly.I don't believe the entire point of a waster is for injuring people in mortal combat. If you are using it for that purpose, you are already ignoring their entire point. Many advanced weapon techniques may depend on certain qualities of the weapon which aren't present in training versions. Example:improved criticalling with a real sword may involve cutting the neck, piercing the heart, or slashing the blade across the stomach. Attempting to do the same with a blunt weapon may well result in sub-optimal results. The swordsman may have prefered to concuss his opponent with a konk to the noggin, but muscle memory took over. Note: I'm not suggesting that you not use the feats (as noted earlier, I recommended the opposite), just trying to illustrate that it may not be a truism in real life.
mvincent 09-12-05, 04:39 PM	the senior instructor came inot the dojo, scolded the junior instrucor, then gave us all a long lecture on how showing off infront of the junior students was bad, and then cut one clean in half with his bokken, in an almost perfect iaijutsu strike.Was he trying to be ironic?
Tony Vargas 09-12-05, 05:19 PM	I think it would be fun to treat wooden training weapons as exactly what they try to be: non-lethal analogs of the weapon in question. So, they'd work /exactly/ like the normal weapon, same damage, same crit/threat, same weapon-specific feats aply, except that they'd do non-lethal bludgeoning damage..... in a training or sparing session. On a natural 20 or something you could have them do real damage (though, maybe not /full/ real damage), to represent the possibility of training accidents. If the weapon has a better than 20/x2 threat, the extra threat or crit might be seen as your sparing partner simply recognizing that the blow would have been deadly had the weapon been real. That's giving such weapons an unrealistic amount of credit in terms of accomplishing what they're meant to do - but D&D does tend to oversimplify things that way, so I don't think it'd be out of line, and it would give you a very easy way to settle non-lethal swordsmanship contests. Used in a 'real fight' it's harder to say. Maybe they should just be treated as improvised weapons of the apropriate size as far as damage is concerned, or maybe they should just do d6 damage like a club or staff (less if it's a wooden version of a light weapon). Allowing weapon focus to aply would make some sense, but weapon specialization or improved crit might be pushing it. Another thing worth remembering is that you can take a -4 penalty to inflict lethal damage with a non-lethal weapon, or vice-versa, so there's no question of the lethality of such weapons, regardless of whether you stat them as lethal or non-lethal to begin with. If a lower-damage lethal weapon, then characters in training are assumed to be taking -4 to hit all the time to inflict non-lethal, if a larger, non-lethal number is assigned, then the weapon could be quite deadly indeed if you were to take the -4 to use it that way. My suggestion above actually ignores that, leaving attacks unmodified but altering the /amount/ of damage depending on whether the weapon is used non-lethally in simulated combat or to kill in the real thing.
Tony Vargas 09-12-05, 05:32 PM	My own Sensai was rarely attacked by bamboo bundles. Yeah, but this is D&D, where your bokken-wielding character may very well be attacked by a dreaded Tatami Golem.
Keenath 09-12-05, 05:34 PM	I think it would be fun to treat wooden training weapons as exactly what they try to be: non-lethal analogs of the weapon in question.The trouble with that is that most weapons of this sort are not meant to hit other people in training. It's not deadly if it does hit, but it's intended for training lower level students in the handling of the weapon, and very rarely for sparring among higher level students who are skilled enough to usually avoid taking hard blows. At least in terms of japanese styles, it's very rare to see somebody sparring with a bokken. Generally a sparring match is done with shinai, which are much more flexible and won't do much more than sting if you take a hit. By contrast, a solid hit from a bokken can easily break bones or bruise ribs, and it's not to the school's benefit to injure its students. A bokken trains the hands for the weight of a real blade, and for the feel of the sword -- a shinai is a bit too light for a realistic feel, but it's great for training stances and movements. I have occasionally seen professionals duelling with bokken, but that's often a semi-ritualized fight that's more about showing mastery of the stances and moves than actually trying to strike a full-power blow. It almost always ends with a 'pulled punch', with one person's sword held against the other's neck or ribs -- stopping short, just to show, "Okay, you're dead." By the way, not addressing Tony here -- bokken is properly written with two k's. The double-k indicates a glottal stop in the japanese, you sort of 'pop' the k.
FlameLover 09-12-05, 07:22 PM	I don't run an oriental-themed game or do martial arts, etc. so I assumed this was just for 'training swords' and not these specific bokken things. If that's what you want do whatever otherwise i would do exactly as Tony said. Plus it's a nice way for two fighters in-game to settle an argument (neither will die as long as they don't try going lethal) and you could sorta use those wizard duel rules from CA (like bluffing once you do something lethal to fool the audience into it being a slip of the rist). I'm starting to really like the idea of training weapons...
LordofNightmares 09-12-05, 07:29 PM	Was he trying to be ironic? That was just his sense of humor coming through. It happened a lot, but especially when teaching someone about the faults of pride and showmanship. He would usually give his lecture, then follow up by effortlessly surpassing what was being done. My father questioned him on that once and he said, "after all words are spoken, actions rule the day, and the 60 year old man is proven the best"
Shaken, not Stunned 09-12-05, 09:15 PM	IMC, a waster of any type is treated as club which benefits from feats as if it were the weapon it most resembles. A bokken is a one-handed simple weapon which deals 1d6, has a 10ft range, and a x2 crit, but benefits from weapon focus (bastard sword), improved critical (bastard sword), etc instead of weapon focus (club), and improved critical (club), ect. It makes wizards cooler.
Keenath 09-12-05, 09:39 PM	I don't run an oriental-themed game or do martial arts, etc. so I assumed this was just for 'training swords' and not these specific bokken things. If that's what you want do whatever otherwise i would do exactly as Tony said.Well, I say bokken, but it equally applies to any well-made wooden sword. I was just using bokken to differentiate between that, essentially a solid block of carved wood, and a shinai, which is a more flexible weapon that's better suited to training combat. My point is simply that a waster should not deal nonlethal damage, but rather a reduced amount of lethal damage, equivalent to a club of the proper size and handedness. A waster is a hard piece of wood, much like a wooden baseball bat, and I don't think anyone would argue that a Louisville Slugger should be a nonlethal weapon!
LordofNightmares 09-12-05, 11:17 PM	I've seen a man's jaw broken with a Bokken, they deal lethal damage. A shinai or other flexable bamboo weapon (the real "waster" type weapon) would deal the nonlethal damage. I've taken a shinai hit that was more painful than a smiliar Bokken hit, but the bokken left a nasty bruise that hurt to move my leg with. A Louisville Slugger baseball Bat IS a masterworks club. An Idea a player of mine brought up today, actually, was to treat Shinais as Masterwork Clubs for stats and price, and allow the feat and proficiency crossover with the Katana.
Vahenir 09-13-05, 08:35 AM	Keenath: As an addendum to your previous statements... In European martial arts there is only one type of waster used for all training. Whereas in Japanese martial arts you train for weight and feel with a bokken, and actual sparring with a shinai. This isn't true for European martial arts. We use properly weighted (or as close to such is possible with an entirely different material, namely - wood) and sized wasters for everything, including sparring. And I'll tell everyone from experience -- those things -hurt-. Even on a clipping blow, you might end up numb for a few seconds. Any instructor will also make sure you have a healthy respect for the lethality of a stick of weapon-shaped wood. A waster can kill you, with relative ease, if you're not careful and aware.
Keenath 09-13-05, 10:44 AM	This isn't true for European martial arts. We use properly weighted (or as close to such is possible with an entirely different material, namely - wood) and sized wasters for everything, including sparring.Out of curiousity, do you use padding or armor of any sort? How do you keep from ending up injured after every session, and how do you avoid monthly broken bones? And don't say "don't get hit", because students always get hit... A shinai or other flexable bamboo weapon (the real "waster" type weapon) would deal the nonlethal damage.But this is exactly the point I'm making, a bokken IS a "real waster"; a waster is a european-style training weapon. Wasters are hard oak bludgeons. Kendo is practically unique in having a safer training weapon. I simply dislike the concept "training sword = nonlethal". It's still quite dangerous, just less lethal than a blade.
Vahenir 09-13-05, 11:18 AM	I simply dislike the concept "training sword = nonlethal". It's still quite dangerous, just less lethal than a blade. Exactly. Out of curiousity, do you use padding or armor of any sort? How do you keep from ending up injured after every session, and how do you avoid monthly broken bones? And don't say "don't get hit", because students always get hit... Always gotta wear armour. I've seen some guys in the SCA, ARMA, and other fighting schools actually go unarmoured with wasters or sparring blunts.. but it's always the really advanced students who have been at it for many, many years. Everyone else typically wears whatever they can get. Some people wear real metal armour, other people wear thick leather versions of metal armour (sort of the armour's answer to a waster), or just lots and lots of fencing padding and the like. In any event.. a student should rarely, if ever, engage in training with wasters if he's not armoured. It's far too dangerous. Even with armour you have to be really careful to take and give hits correctly or someone could get really hurt. I've had two fingers broken and some severe bruising... and I've seen much worse.
Watchman 09-13-05, 11:23 AM	By what I know of it the shinai is a rather late developement, adopted specifically to keep students from getting maimed and crippled by training accidents. But then again by that point Japan had been under constant peace for some centuries already and, naturally enough, much of the corpus of fighting skills was fairly thoroughly degenrate, ossified and ceremonial... No doubt a hard-bitten pre-Shogunate veteran would have laughed derisively at around 95% of what was taught as (and how) "weapon skills" around that time, much like how a Medieval knight or a Renaissance mercenary wouldn't have believed his eyes had he seen what passed for "swordsmanship" in European armies by the early 1800s. That aside, the simplest way to represent a bokken in D&D would probably be to use Greatclub (or whatever it's called in 3.5) stats, although personally I'd adjust the weight and amp the price slightly. Alternatively you might want to drop the damage dice to d8, but that's a matter of taste IMHO. Nonetheless, regarding Feats it should be treated as a katana - it's a training weapon ferchrissakes, and if you can't use a training weapon with the same Proficency, Focus, Specialization and sundry as the real thing something is very wrong conceptually...
Keenath 09-13-05, 12:18 PM	Alternatively you might want to drop the damage dice to d8, but that's a matter of taste IMHO. A greatclub requires two hands; if you want a bokken to weild the same as a katana (aka bastard sword), the damage should be commensurate, which would be d8. Nonetheless, regarding Feats it should be treated as a katana - it's a training weapon ferchrissakes, and if you can't use a training weapon with the same Proficency, Focus, Specialization and sundry as the real thing something is very wrong conceptually...This is where I'm a little leery of it. Focus, Proficiency -- absolutely! But specialization? Improved Critical? Don't these really represent using a /blade/ more effectively? Earlier somebody -- Tony, I think? -- complained that it didn't make sense that you can put down a sword, pick up a waster, and suddenly lose the ability to use a feat. I would argue that this isn't the case; rather, using the feat, using the training and techniques, doesn't produce the same /effect/. It's not that you suddenly forget how to improve your critical rate, it's just that the techniques don't work for a piece of wood. You can train your body to move the right way to produce an increased amount of damage when using a real blade -- improving your draw-cut, for example, or developing special techniques -- but doing the same movement with a blunt wooden blade won't produce the same increased damage or critical. A blunted blade requires entirely different techniques to deal additional damage, so I would allow you to apply weapon proficiency and focus feats to a bokken or waster, but not damage-boosters.
Tony Vargas 09-13-05, 12:49 PM	I simply dislike the concept "training sword = nonlethal". It's still quite dangerous, just less lethal than a blade. Exactly.At the risk of repeating myself, it doesn't matter whether you model the training weapon as a same-damage non-lethal one or a lower-damage, non-lethal one - you're still modelling a dangerous item that is less lethal than the real thing. The 'non-lethal' one is actually just as lethal, if you take a -4 to your attack, the 'lethal' version is 'less lethal' because it does less damage and can be non-lethal if you take a -4 to your attack (as can the real thing, for that matter). The only difference is that the same-damage/non-lethal way allows you to run a non-lethal training/sparing session that's numerically identical to the real thing (which is, as I said, makes the item an unrealistically perfect training tool), and also lets a highly 'skilled' (anyone who can eat a -4 and still hit) wielder be /exactly/ as deadly in terms of damage as if he were using a real blade (also probably unrealistic). OTOH, if you use reduced lethal damage (I'd reccomend two steps, and crit/threat reduced to 20/x2), then training and sparing sessions would routinely require everyone involved to take the -4 penalty to avoid doing lethal damage, and such sessions would be numerically very different from the real thing. Similarly, it wouldn't take a 'skilled wielder' to make such a training weapon deadly - anyone could beat someone to death with just as easily as any similar-damage 'real' weapon. I don't think either option is ideal for the game, though. The former is highly desireable for running cool 'sparing' sessions (between PCs for instance), but it's actually imbalancing if you let the training weapons be used in real combat (why would anyone ever use a sap or a weapon with the 'merciful' enchantment). The latter is realistic, but it offers little mechanical reason to use such weapons - a character could simply use the real thing and take the same -4 to inflict non-lethal damage, as the system does not allow for any risk of inflicting lethal damage when doing so.
LordofNightmares 09-13-05, 02:08 PM	Sword to sword sparring is very rare in most non "fencing" styles of martial arts. And when it is, Padded armor is the minimum. And yes when two masters are going bokken to bokken withotu armor they are pulling their strikes, its just a sing of their skill with the weapons. A lots of training is full strength against a training dummy. A bokken is a club... because ofthe two handed nature of the weapon, might even say a great club but that might be pushing it, A bokken not a safe katana. A shinai is a safe katana. It takes no extra skill to kill a man with a bokken. an oakwood stick is a club, not a safe sword, no matter how much has gone into the design shape and weight to make it sword like.
Watchman 09-13-05, 04:11 PM	A greatclub requires two hands; if you want a bokken to weild the same as a katana (aka bastard sword), the damage should be commensurate, which would be d8.Katanas/bastards need two hands too, unless you blow an EWP on them. Unless 3.5 did something really strange anyway. A d10, Exotic, one-handed club sounds pretty balanced to me, all the more so as it's really just a stand-in to the actual weapon... As for Specialization and the like, why the heck not ? IRL those are half stuff like footwork, "sweet spots", optimal muscle tension etc. deep-down nitty-gritties of delivering effective blows taken to another level anyway. The wannabe Musashis are going to train in using those Feats with the wooden sword too after all - indeed all the more so, as with a real weapon such high-lethality thingamabobs would tend to cause rather unacceptable dismemberement rates in sparring partners. And methinks anyone who's gone and honed his kenjutsu to the levels where said Feats become concerns is going to be able to deliver some pretty nasty bokken blows too; Musashi didn't exactly start his career by clubbing people either, he just picked up the habit later on. Betcha just to keep things interesting; by what I know of those "consummate martial-arts masters" types, they invent crazy and insensible but as-such workable techniques just for fun...
Keenath 09-13-05, 04:38 PM	Katanas/bastards need two hands too, unless you blow an EWP on them. Unless 3.5 did something really strange anyway. A d10, Exotic, one-handed club sounds pretty balanced to me, all the more so as it's really just a stand-in to the actual weapon...So why should a two-handed club with a EWP one-hand option deal the same damage as a full two-handed club? That's the same as saying a bastard sword should deal the same damage as a greatsword because they both need two hands, unless you spend a feat. A bokken is less "efficient" than a normal weapon of its type, because it is a training device, not a real weapon. It IS weak for its size and type, but it's supposed to be. A greatclub doesn't have the option of using one hand as an exotic, but a bokken is harder to one-hand than a club would be. What's wrong with giving it an in-between stat? I personally would let such a weapon be considered simple, like a one-ended quarterstaff, if you weild it two-handed, but considered exotic as a one-handed weapon and allow the weilder to apply katana feats. And methinks anyone who's gone and honed his kenjutsu to the levels where said Feats become concerns is going to be able to deliver some pretty nasty bokken blows too; Musashi didn't exactly start his career by clubbing people either, he just picked up the habit later on. Betcha just to keep things interesting; by what I know of those "consummate martial-arts masters" types, they invent crazy and insensible but as-such workable techniques just for fun...Musashi wasn't unique. At that time in Japan, most duels used bokuto (that is, bokken) and were not attempts to kill the opponent. Now, there was a duel with Kojiro in which Musashi carved an oar into a weapon -- the reason is, Kojiro was going to cheat. Kojiro brought something like six retainers to gang up if the fight was going badly, and he himself was armed with a no-dachi, a very long blade (a greatsword, essentially). Musashi, on his way to the island, carved an oar into a very long bokken to use, giving him superior reach to the opponent's nodachi. He charged up the beach, broke Kojiro's skull with one swing, then ran back to his boat before the retainers could come after him. After that, Musashi decided that wood was more reliable than steel, and less provocative, and that's why he spent most of his teaching days with wooden training swords instead of the real thing. It's the old problem of being the fastest gun in the west -- everyone wants to test their skill against the best. By refusing to wear a steel sword, he tacitly refused to get involved in a lethal duel. Apparently some swordsmen actually withdrew their challenges after he refused to draw steel against them -- it shamed them that an old master would trust in a piece of wood against their steel; they wouldn't be willing to do the same, so that proves his superiority before even starting the fight.
Watchman 09-13-05, 05:09 PM	*shrug* Quite beside the point. The thing is, quite enough people got killed or crippled in training accidents to make it clear the bokken was pretty dangerous. Anyway, the real point is the only reason anyone would make a bokken-toting char is more or less pure "schtick"; even as a "bastard greatclub" it'd still be inferior stats-wise to any other such weapon (ie. Bastard Sword and the Waraxe), and someone really going for it would probably insist on wielding the thing two-handed anyway. In a game like D&D, which has a hard time not encouraging chronic min-maxing and number-crunching, such "style over substance" approach is only commendable. And I don't care if it's because the player's been watching too much Outlaw Star as of late either...
LordofNightmares 09-13-05, 08:17 PM	A bokken is less "efficient" than a normal weapon of its type, because it is a training device, not a real weapon. A bokken is an efficiant weapon as well as a gift from god as a training device. In training you are always pulling your strikes to not kill your partner, becuase Bokken do break bones. Unless you have actaully trained with them, you would no know that. As for statting it differently, I am not agaisnt that. Maybe have it be a two handed club that deals 1d8 damage. And all Katana feats apply to the Bokken normally. So if the user has a STR 13+ and burns the feat (Str 13+ is required for the feat with certain weapons, katana/bastard sword included) I think my player who uses bokken would like that boon, seeing as he is only dealing 1d6 now fo rit to be 1 or 2 handed as he wishes. (with his str of 19 the bonus is considerable)
mvincent 09-13-05, 08:35 PM	I think my player who uses bokken would like that boon, seeing as he is only dealing 1d6 now fo rit to be 1 or 2 handed as he wishes. (with his str of 19 the bonus is considerable)Due to the typos, I'm not postive I understand you, but: You realize that a club (and other One-Handed Melee Weapons) can already be used two-handed, yes? i.e.: "If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls." Edit: fixed one of my own typos that made my reply incomprehensible
Yanagita Kunio 09-13-05, 08:37 PM	Keenath - good Musashi analysis...the more I deal with TWF freaks in RL [yes, RL, not forums...weep for me], and their endless ramblings about Nitouryu, the more I appreciate someone who reads the history thoroughly and appreciates the man for his more subtle achievements. He did indeed rock. Lordof Nightmares -- experimentally I've split all hand-and-a-half weapons into two dice for one or two hands [bastard swords, the D&D "falchion," & the katana are current members, with more to come after a little more thought and research] with a one-increment difference, but don't require the extra feat burned to gain one-handed proficiency if the weapon is martial. I'd fit the bokken in the same category as d8/d6, can't decide on x2, x3, or 19-20/x2. I'm reconsidering my postition on feat stacking for bokken/katana. None of these are a concrete house rule yet because the current roster of PCs don't use the types of equipment where this all comes into play.
LordofNightmares 09-13-05, 09:43 PM	Due to the typos, I'm postive I understand you, but: You realize that a club (and other One-Handed Melee Weapons) can already be used two-handed, yes? i.e.: "If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls." Sorry aboot the typos, i'm using a *shudder* laptop keyboard. -_- As for that little rule change I did not notice that in 3.5. u_u
Keenath 09-14-05, 09:51 AM	Um, LON, that isn't a change. Ever since 3.0 you could choose to two-hand a one-handed (but not light) weapon to get the damage bonus. A bokken is an efficiant weapon as well as a gift from god as a training device. In training you are always pulling your strikes to not kill your partner, becuase Bokken do break bones. Unless you have actaully trained with them, you would no know that.Whoa! You've misunderstood me. First off, I should think that from my earlier posts I made it clear that I'm absolutely aware of how much injury you can take from a bokken. I haven't trained with one, but I'm perfectly clear on what a large oak stick can do to a person. Why is it necesary to train with a bokken to understand this? Now, I wasn't saying that a bokken is a bad weapon. I meant, in a mechanical-rules sense, it is inefficient. It is an inferior weapon to other weapons of its size, type, and handedness. If you examine the weapon tables, you'll notice that weapons in a group follow certain rules, and they are all mechanically equivalent. A shortsword is martial and light, and deals 1d6 19-20. A handaxe is also martial and light, and deals the same damage, but trades crit range for crit damage. A kukri is the same class, but trades die size for a larger crit range increase. The wooden weapons -- club, quarterstaff, greatclub -- have a die size one smaller than similar metal weapons due to a less effective striking surface. (Compare a club to a light mace.) If you make a bokken, it is much weaker than any other one-handed exotic weapon, even considering its wooden surface. A 1d8 x2 exotic one-handed weapon is incredibly weak, unless it has some special abilities to bring it back up to balance. The bokken has no such abilities, so it's weak for its class. (The same goes if it's being used as a two-handed martial weapon.) This is all I meant by "inefficient". It's a sub-standard weapon choice. A waster should be, because it's a training tool rather than a purpose-built weapon.