Bonuses on full attack during a charge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bonuses on full attack during a charge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tenken
04-08-06, 03:32 PM There are several ways that a character can get a full attack after/during a charge. My question is, do all of the bonuses of the charge apply to the full attack? For instance, a charging character gets +2 bonus on his attack after a normal charge. If he can make a full attack, does he get that +2 on all his attacks, or just the first one?

Has this answer been clarified officially anywhere? I looked in the FAQ and didn't see it there...
draconic_swine
04-08-06, 05:37 PM From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge):

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

So the answer is you only get the +2 bonus to your first attack -- because that's the only attack you can make after a charge.
Tenken
04-08-06, 05:43 PM From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge):
So the answer is you only get the +2 bonus to your first attack -- because that's the only attack you can make after a charge.

Actually, there are feats/spells/powers/etc that allows you to make a full attack after a charge, which I mentioned in my question. An example is the Lion's Charge spell from Spell Compendium.
draconic_swine
04-08-06, 05:49 PM Well that spell flat-out contradicts the rules, and is yet more proof why I don't like splatbooks. But that's neither here nor there.

If you must include the spell, I'd rule that the +2 only applies to the first attack. A +2 bonus to multiple attacks for only a -2 penalty to AC overpowers an already broken manoeuvre.
BeyondFated
04-08-06, 06:20 PM Well that spell flat-out contradicts the rules, and is yet more proof why I don't like splatbooks. But that's neither here nor there.

If you must include the spell, I'd rule that the +2 only applies to the first attack. A +2 bonus to multiple attacks for only a -2 penalty to AC overpowers an already broken manoeuvre.

Pounce
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability. That ability is applied to quite a few core monsters and is also included in the Monster Manual to be applied to home-brew creatures, so splat books arent the problem. Besides, there are many, many rules that contridict themselves within core only.

Anyway, I always assumed that the +2 was added on to every attack. A +2 to hit is hardly game breaking. At most it will come up once per encounter.
Ogre4Hire
04-08-06, 11:08 PM The Lion Charges!

He makes his first Claw attack, gaining a +2 to hit from the charge. Then he suddenly loses all of his momentum and is forced to make the rest of his attacks at their normal attack bonus!

Not. Creatures with the ability to make multiple attacks on a Charge gain the +2 bonus on all of their attacks.
Tenken
04-08-06, 11:15 PM What about other things, such as a weapon with Valorous enhancement from Unapproachable East. Do all the attacks gain double damage because of it? If so, does this mean that anything that basically affect the first attack affects all the attacks?
supernerd8916
04-09-06, 10:15 AM not to mention dual weilding lances with spirited charge :eek:

to preempt anyone who hasnt read the phb, yes a lance is a two handed weapon, but on a horse (or other mount) a lance of the right size is one handed
tarkin
04-09-06, 11:16 AM Basic physics says first attack only. The bonuses from a charge are from delivery the energy you built up in the run. Once you use it, it should be gone.

Similarly, I can't see a magic enchanmtent that needs the charge action continue to work after you have used up the charge.

Balance wise, in a Power game, where everything else is boosted, it should be OK. But in games that more closely follow WoTC rules, it would not work out.
jaelis
04-09-06, 01:00 PM My interpretation bases off the dnd rules for doubling. If you have two effects that double your damage, we all know they apply separately for a total of x3.

Charging, by itself, offers the advantage of a +2 bonus to hit. Creatures with pounce and similar abilities get another advantage, of making a full attack. In the spirit of the multiplication rules, I think these advantages should apply separately, not be combined. So you'd only get the +2 to hit on your first attack.
dopp
04-09-06, 02:32 PM Basic physics says first attack only.
So a lion that charges will hit with one claw first. Then wait till he doesn't move anymore, and then make another claw attack, two rakes and a bite?

I would think that when a lion charges, he makes a jump, and attacks with his 2 claws and 2 rake attacks at the same time, while trying to do a bite attack as well. So all of the attacks should benifit from the charge.
supernerd8916
04-09-06, 03:25 PM get on a horse, start riding and aim two pointy sticks towards a dummy.
Matthew_
04-09-06, 06:38 PM Please do try that; you won't be able to.
supernerd8916
04-09-06, 06:42 PM my point exactly :P
TheNarrator
04-09-06, 07:32 PM The penalty to AC from charging lasts until your next action... likewise the penalties and bonuses form Power Attack. So I think there's precedent for the +2 from charging lasting through a whole attack action (if you can full attack on a charge due to either Lion's Charge or the Pounce ability).

And in the case of the pounce ability, the monster is attacking with all its limbs at once. The momentum helps all the attacks, which occur simultaneously. Full attacks from PCs may be sequential (except for TWF) but nobody says you stop dead after the first one, rather than pressing forward through the 5-foot-square you end up in as you attack.

So my instinct says yes, based on the Power Attack precedent.
Matthew_
04-09-06, 07:40 PM Not according to the SRD.

After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll[.]* and take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

*This full stop occurs in my SRD for some reason.

It seems clear that the +2 only applies to the one attack roll, differentiated from the AC penalty. On the other hand, do you get the +2 bonus with the Cleave Feat? I imagine not, but perhaps I'm wrong...
supernerd8916
04-09-06, 07:42 PM level 11 half giant psychic warrior, 20 str

notable feats
2wf
I2wf
g2wf
psionic weapon
mounted combat
ride-by attack
spirited charge

powers
psionic lions charge
dissolving weapon

full attack:
2d6x3+5+2d6+8d6
2d6x3+5
2d6x3+5
2d6x3+5
2d6x3+5
2d6x3+5

12d6x3+30+10d6

average
126+30+35

201
allenchan
04-09-06, 09:10 PM It seems clear that the +2 only applies to the one attack roll, differentiated from the AC penalty. On the other hand, do you get the +2 bonus with the Cleave Feat? I imagine not, but perhaps I'm wrong...

Of course you do. Cleave gets the exact same attack mods as the original attack that caused it.

And I cant believe some people have never heard of Pounce... what the heck?! :confused:
yuenglingdragon
04-09-06, 10:42 PM level 11 half giant psychic warrior, 20 str

notable feats
2wf
I2wf
g2wf
psionic weapon
mounted combat
ride-by attack
spirited charge

powers
psionic lions charge
dissolving weapon

full attack:
2d6x3+5+2d6+8d6
2d6x3+5
2d6x3+5
2d6x3+5
2d6x3+5
2d6x3+5

12d6x3+30+10d6

average
126+30+35

201
That would be brilliant, if a lvl 11 Psywar could have Greater TWF. He'd have to be at least lvl 15.

Nitpicking out of the way, Dual weilding lances should earn you nothing more than an unholy ass whoopin from your DM. However, I don't see any reason why a psywar shouldn't be able to apply the bonus from leap attack to all attacks at the end of a charge you manifested Psionic Lions Charge on. Nothing in the Leap Attack feat says that you only get to use its bonus on one attack and CAdv is almost a year older than XPH. If it was a worry for them they would have said something, it's not a new idea.
Matthew_
04-10-06, 05:18 AM Of course you do. Cleave gets the exact same attack mods as the original attack that caused it.

That's not quite true; check out the recent Wizard's Faq on Cleave to see that not all bonuses from the original attack necessarily count. The charge bonus might count or it might not, there is no official ruling as far as I can tell.
For myself, at the moment I'm in favour of denying the Charge Attack Bonus to additional Cleave Attacks, as I think that's the direction the RAW lean; so, until an official ruling says otherwise, that's how I plan to adjudicate.
Tenken
04-10-06, 08:15 AM With all the different answers I'm getting, I guess there has been no official answer from WotC... shame...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tenken 04-08-06, 03:32 PM	There are several ways that a character can get a full attack after/during a charge. My question is, do all of the bonuses of the charge apply to the full attack? For instance, a charging character gets +2 bonus on his attack after a normal charge. If he can make a full attack, does he get that +2 on all his attacks, or just the first one? Has this answer been clarified officially anywhere? I looked in the FAQ and didn't see it there...
draconic_swine 04-08-06, 05:37 PM	From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge): Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge. So the answer is you only get the +2 bonus to your first attack -- because that's the only attack you can make after a charge.
Tenken 04-08-06, 05:43 PM	From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge): So the answer is you only get the +2 bonus to your first attack -- because that's the only attack you can make after a charge. Actually, there are feats/spells/powers/etc that allows you to make a full attack after a charge, which I mentioned in my question. An example is the Lion's Charge spell from Spell Compendium.
draconic_swine 04-08-06, 05:49 PM	Well that spell flat-out contradicts the rules, and is yet more proof why I don't like splatbooks. But that's neither here nor there. If you must include the spell, I'd rule that the +2 only applies to the first attack. A +2 bonus to multiple attacks for only a -2 penalty to AC overpowers an already broken manoeuvre.
BeyondFated 04-08-06, 06:20 PM	Well that spell flat-out contradicts the rules, and is yet more proof why I don't like splatbooks. But that's neither here nor there. If you must include the spell, I'd rule that the +2 only applies to the first attack. A +2 bonus to multiple attacks for only a -2 penalty to AC overpowers an already broken manoeuvre. Pounce When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability. That ability is applied to quite a few core monsters and is also included in the Monster Manual to be applied to home-brew creatures, so splat books arent the problem. Besides, there are many, many rules that contridict themselves within core only. Anyway, I always assumed that the +2 was added on to every attack. A +2 to hit is hardly game breaking. At most it will come up once per encounter.
Ogre4Hire 04-08-06, 11:08 PM	The Lion Charges! He makes his first Claw attack, gaining a +2 to hit from the charge. Then he suddenly loses all of his momentum and is forced to make the rest of his attacks at their normal attack bonus! Not. Creatures with the ability to make multiple attacks on a Charge gain the +2 bonus on all of their attacks.
Tenken 04-08-06, 11:15 PM	What about other things, such as a weapon with Valorous enhancement from Unapproachable East. Do all the attacks gain double damage because of it? If so, does this mean that anything that basically affect the first attack affects all the attacks?
supernerd8916 04-09-06, 10:15 AM	not to mention dual weilding lances with spirited charge :eek: to preempt anyone who hasnt read the phb, yes a lance is a two handed weapon, but on a horse (or other mount) a lance of the right size is one handed
tarkin 04-09-06, 11:16 AM	Basic physics says first attack only. The bonuses from a charge are from delivery the energy you built up in the run. Once you use it, it should be gone. Similarly, I can't see a magic enchanmtent that needs the charge action continue to work after you have used up the charge. Balance wise, in a Power game, where everything else is boosted, it should be OK. But in games that more closely follow WoTC rules, it would not work out.
jaelis 04-09-06, 01:00 PM	My interpretation bases off the dnd rules for doubling. If you have two effects that double your damage, we all know they apply separately for a total of x3. Charging, by itself, offers the advantage of a +2 bonus to hit. Creatures with pounce and similar abilities get another advantage, of making a full attack. In the spirit of the multiplication rules, I think these advantages should apply separately, not be combined. So you'd only get the +2 to hit on your first attack.
dopp 04-09-06, 02:32 PM	Basic physics says first attack only. So a lion that charges will hit with one claw first. Then wait till he doesn't move anymore, and then make another claw attack, two rakes and a bite? I would think that when a lion charges, he makes a jump, and attacks with his 2 claws and 2 rake attacks at the same time, while trying to do a bite attack as well. So all of the attacks should benifit from the charge.
supernerd8916 04-09-06, 03:25 PM	get on a horse, start riding and aim two pointy sticks towards a dummy.
Matthew_ 04-09-06, 06:38 PM	Please do try that; you won't be able to.
supernerd8916 04-09-06, 06:42 PM	my point exactly :P
TheNarrator 04-09-06, 07:32 PM	The penalty to AC from charging lasts until your next action... likewise the penalties and bonuses form Power Attack. So I think there's precedent for the +2 from charging lasting through a whole attack action (if you can full attack on a charge due to either Lion's Charge or the Pounce ability). And in the case of the pounce ability, the monster is attacking with all its limbs at once. The momentum helps all the attacks, which occur simultaneously. Full attacks from PCs may be sequential (except for TWF) but nobody says you stop dead after the first one, rather than pressing forward through the 5-foot-square you end up in as you attack. So my instinct says yes, based on the Power Attack precedent.
Matthew_ 04-09-06, 07:40 PM	Not according to the SRD. After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll[.]* and take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn. *This full stop occurs in my SRD for some reason. It seems clear that the +2 only applies to the one attack roll, differentiated from the AC penalty. On the other hand, do you get the +2 bonus with the Cleave Feat? I imagine not, but perhaps I'm wrong...
supernerd8916 04-09-06, 07:42 PM	level 11 half giant psychic warrior, 20 str notable feats 2wf I2wf g2wf psionic weapon mounted combat ride-by attack spirited charge powers psionic lions charge dissolving weapon full attack: 2d6x3+5+2d6+8d6 2d6x3+5 2d6x3+5 2d6x3+5 2d6x3+5 2d6x3+5 12d6x3+30+10d6 average 126+30+35 201
allenchan 04-09-06, 09:10 PM	It seems clear that the +2 only applies to the one attack roll, differentiated from the AC penalty. On the other hand, do you get the +2 bonus with the Cleave Feat? I imagine not, but perhaps I'm wrong... Of course you do. Cleave gets the exact same attack mods as the original attack that caused it. And I cant believe some people have never heard of Pounce... what the heck?! :confused:
yuenglingdragon 04-09-06, 10:42 PM	level 11 half giant psychic warrior, 20 str notable feats 2wf I2wf g2wf psionic weapon mounted combat ride-by attack spirited charge powers psionic lions charge dissolving weapon full attack: 2d6x3+5+2d6+8d6 2d6x3+5 2d6x3+5 2d6x3+5 2d6x3+5 2d6x3+5 12d6x3+30+10d6 average 126+30+35 201 That would be brilliant, if a lvl 11 Psywar could have Greater TWF. He'd have to be at least lvl 15. Nitpicking out of the way, Dual weilding lances should earn you nothing more than an unholy ass whoopin from your DM. However, I don't see any reason why a psywar shouldn't be able to apply the bonus from leap attack to all attacks at the end of a charge you manifested Psionic Lions Charge on. Nothing in the Leap Attack feat says that you only get to use its bonus on one attack and CAdv is almost a year older than XPH. If it was a worry for them they would have said something, it's not a new idea.
Matthew_ 04-10-06, 05:18 AM	Of course you do. Cleave gets the exact same attack mods as the original attack that caused it. That's not quite true; check out the recent Wizard's Faq on Cleave to see that not all bonuses from the original attack necessarily count. The charge bonus might count or it might not, there is no official ruling as far as I can tell. For myself, at the moment I'm in favour of denying the Charge Attack Bonus to additional Cleave Attacks, as I think that's the direction the RAW lean; so, until an official ruling says otherwise, that's how I plan to adjudicate.
Tenken 04-10-06, 08:15 AM	With all the different answers I'm getting, I guess there has been no official answer from WotC... shame...