Book of Nine Swords Legacy Weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Book of Nine Swords Legacy Weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ophidian23
05-17-07, 02:33 AM You guys probably went over this well before I got my copy but concerning the Book of Nine Swords Legacy Weapons:
Where are the listings for which Legacy abilities are unlocked by
each ritual???
Seems a rather bizarre omission and I can't find an errata for it...
DarkRhystar
05-17-07, 02:56 AM They're stupidly hard to find.

Least ritual: Abilities level 5 through 10.
Lesser ritual: Abilities level 11 through 16.
Greater ritual: Abilities level 17 through 20.

Even in the Weapons of Legacy book, they're hard to find. You can deduce them from the feats, or you can dig your way back to 182 and 183 to find them.

As an aside, the concept is great... the penalties associated are lame.
Ophidian23
05-17-07, 03:19 AM They're stupidly hard to find.

Least ritual: Abilities level 5 through 10.
Lesser ritual: Abilities level 11 through 16.
Greater ritual: Abilities level 17 through 20.

Where is that listed?
It looked like it might be something like that but I'm seriously not finding it. ;(

Additionally, I'm seeing the rituals claiming to grant "Feats".
Are thes some sort of bonus "Feat" or must you devote actual Feat slots to them to gain any benefit?
DarkRhystar
05-17-07, 03:22 AM Where is that listed?
It looked like it might be something like that but I'm seriously not finding it. ;(

It's found in the Weapons of Legacy book. A great deal of information wasn't clearly specified in Tome of Battle.

Additionally, I'm seeing the rituals claiming to grant "Feats".
Are thes some sort of bonus "Feat" or must you devote actual Feat slots to them to gain any benefit?

Here's the way it works (more or less):

You get to level 5.
You perform the Least Ritual.
You gain the Least Legacy feat which unlocks the corresponding abilities (5-10).
You get to level 11.
You perform the Lesser Ritual.
You gain the Lesser Legacy feat which unlocks the corresponding abilities (11-16).
You get to level 17.
You perform the Greater Ritual.
You gain the Greater Legacy feat which unlocks the corresponding abilities (17-20).

You gain these feats as bonus feats (in case that wasn't clear).
Sleepwalker13666
05-17-07, 04:38 AM Unfortunatly both books where terribly organized on this, I had to read WoL twice before I understood it.
DarkRhystar
05-17-07, 01:15 PM Unfortunatly both books where terribly organized on this, I had to read WoL twice before I understood it.

Yep.

In my first game where Weapons of Legacy appeared (way back when), the DM at the time "house ruled" that the feats were gained as bonus feats because no one could find something that said one way or another.

Of course we found out later that we had "house ruled" the game to work as per the rules but the answer was practically "on display" in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying, "Beware of the Leopard."
narukagami
05-17-07, 09:02 PM It would have been way less confusing if WotC had not had them be "feats" at all and just said something along the lines of "After performing the ritual, you gain use of abilities up to level X". WoL was a great idea, but the book was poorly organized. For some reason, as already said, that poor organization carried over to ToB's Legacy Weapons.
pmurray@bigpond.com
05-17-07, 11:00 PM May I also add, at this point, that the legacy weapons in the ToB are pretty lame? I wouldn't spend my feats on 'em.
narukagami
05-18-07, 07:14 AM May I also add, at this point, that the legacy weapons in the ToB are pretty lame? I wouldn't spend my feats on 'em. You don't spend any feats on them, though.:P
pmurray@bigpond.com
05-21-07, 12:38 AM You don't spend any feats on them, though.:P

Actually ... I'd like to modify my opinion a little. The Tiger Claw weapon (which is the one I was looking at) scales until it's crit modifier is *4. Now ... a warblade gets his Int bonus to damage at level 4. Plus, Blood in the Water adds a stcking bonus to damage. Since these are bonuses (not bonus die), they multiply on a critical hit. With Improved Critical, my ITWF warblade is threatening more than 1 critical per round (on average) ... so basically, it's a lot of extra damage.

Might speak to the DM about it :cool: , see if he feels generous.
Ophidian23
06-07-07, 10:39 PM May I also add, at this point, that the legacy weapons in the ToB are pretty lame?

Rule and stat wise possibly, but I asked about them because I thought some of them were thematically interesting. Some form of the desert blade will likely show up in one of my games....
Anguirus23
06-07-07, 10:53 PM I actually like those legacy weapons. One of my PCs asked to use Desert Wind, so I'm planning to eventually have them try to bring together all of the Nine Swords.

I think the legacy system as written is very clumsy and, worse still, punishes the player. So what I do is eyeball the columns and pick one or two that will apply. Plenty of those items are fine with their gold piece cost and some minor penalty to saves rather than depriving a player of their highest spell slot, for instance. My players would be fools to develop a legacy with such a cost instead of just spending their money on something from the MIC, and I want to reward them for using those items instead of discouraging them.
Aryxbez
06-11-07, 12:47 AM I think the penalties are fine, as long there is no more than 3, and the penalties are not too harmful to the character. You and the DM should work stuff out to make sure the penalties don't totally hurt your character. Such penalties I can think of are Penalty to all saves, skill point loss, and high level spell slots. The only time these penalties should come up is when there are 1-2 types of penalties.

Also I find some of the items in Weapon of Legacy cool, and the TOB as well, however I have modified some legacy items like the Bullybashers gauntlets(WOL) to be more like superb boxing gloves. I have also removed or replaced penalties with other legacy items as well.
Sleepwalker13666
06-11-07, 01:01 AM A few of them are good, Desert Wind is my favorite, a friend of mine earned the white raven sword, however in one game I gave Shishi-O a try, that weapon is a steaming pile of :censored:
Kirech
09-22-07, 04:42 PM Found this thread while searching for something on the optimization possibilities for legacy weapons. I did a very rough analysis of the costs associated with Shadow Awn (the shadow hand legacy weapon) and the benefits gained, taking into account that a stealth character is less likely to buy a constitution bonus item (unless he were losing HP and Fort saves for a legacy weapon), and it seems like it's a ridiculously good deal at higher levels. A +2 ghost touch speed dagger with +3d6 sneak attack, a built in ring of invisibility, and a handful of useful stealth abilities is well worth the price of the rituals, a periapt of health +2, and a nicer cloak of resistance than you'd normally buy. The +2 while flanking makes up for the -2 to attacks most of the time.

At lower levels, the advantages are only really there if you get a lot of use out of the 5th level ability to hide from flat-footed foes.

A whisper gnome swordsage or maybe daring outlaw would be pretty well-served by this weapon.
StormStrike
02-22-08, 10:07 PM some quick math to show that legacy weapons are in no way overcosted because of the penalties associated with them
following example used because abilities were most easily calculated as equivalent spells and such, and comes from ToB
<b>Unfettered (Stone Dragon)</b> at 20th lvl provides a +5 (50,000g)weapon that grants you the following:
-Use of the manuever Charging Minitor 5/day with a +2 Strength bonus for resolving the bull rush part of the manuever (equal to 5 matial scripts per day - 250g)
-Enlarge person 1/day (equal to a scroll per day - 125g)
-Meld into Stone 1/day ( caster lvl twice that of normal scroll - 350g x2 (700) + damage bonus on next stone drgon manuver (can't calculate))
-Light fortification as the armor enhancement ability, Which normally requires a minimum of +2 overall bonus on armor - 4000g (minimum)
-Disembodied Blade 1/day ( super powerful version of a scroll of Mordankainen's Sword at above 4 lvls above minimum for scroll (17th)- at least 2975g
- + 6 bonus to strength ( as belt of giant strength - 36,000g)

Overall cost of all bonuses - 94,050g
Cost of Sword plus unlocking all three leagacy rituals - 62,350
Difference 31,700g Assuming that armor ability i mentioned only came from a +1 Light fort armor... not a +3, light fort, Ghost touch armor

So according to the prices, the penalties of -2 Atk, -4 Reflex save, and Loss of 12 hit points, costs 31,700 gold... Sounds fair to me. Reflex saves can't kill you outright, like fort or will saves can, especially high lvl saves. 12 hit points lost when the character likely to use this weapon are Crusaders and WarBlades with D10 and D12 Hit Dice, respectivly, and the probably have a good Con score since the are both front line fighters. Lets throw being a dwarf on top of that for kicks (+2Con score/1 extra hit point per lvl). And the minus 2 atack is made up for by +6 strength (+3 atk) and the fact that its a +5 weapon, overall atack modifacation to +6.

The only problem i have with the lagacy weapon system is that some of the requirments for the rituals are rediculous. For example, Supernal Clarity must be STOLEN from it curent wielder to be used by you. If you find it unguarded you must give it to someone stronger than you, then steal it back. how about the Kamate, which requires you to defeat 10 enemies by yourself in a single encounter, the CR of each being no more than 4 lower than our own... So at 16th lvl you would need to kill 10 CR12's by yourself, have fun. And after all these trying tasks, someone with a Eventides Edge must only spend an hour medetating at dusk, envisioning the setting sun. Thats the equivalend of downing 10 enemies by yourseld in single combat? whatever:confused:
runestar
02-22-08, 10:21 PM You can infer the levels from tiny snippets scattered here and there.

For example, on page140, eventide's crux of balance ability states "when you first unlock .... at 5th lv", indicating that least legacy is granted at 5th lv earliest. Same for page 141, umbral awn's shadowcloak feature.

Then on page145, under tiger fang's sharp claw ability, it mentions "once you have performed lesser legacy at lv11", suggesting that least legacy stops at lv10, and lesser legacy takes over at lv11.

Last but not least, power crit (pg145) also mentions "when you unlock ... at lv17". Pretty much self explanatory.

But still no less annoying, to say the least.:mad:
Kouk
02-23-08, 04:29 AM DarkRhystar's description is correct.

The description given in the ToB is very brief, and I would recommend you read the chapter about creating or forging legacies in the Weapons of Legacy book before using any kind of Legacy Item, if only to understand more about the principles of it.

... And if your DM is adventurous, maybe you could try one of my alternate Weapons of Legacy systems in the link in my sig. <shameless plug>

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ophidian23 05-17-07, 02:33 AM	You guys probably went over this well before I got my copy but concerning the Book of Nine Swords Legacy Weapons: Where are the listings for which Legacy abilities are unlocked by each ritual??? Seems a rather bizarre omission and I can't find an errata for it...
DarkRhystar 05-17-07, 02:56 AM	They're stupidly hard to find. Least ritual: Abilities level 5 through 10. Lesser ritual: Abilities level 11 through 16. Greater ritual: Abilities level 17 through 20. Even in the Weapons of Legacy book, they're hard to find. You can deduce them from the feats, or you can dig your way back to 182 and 183 to find them. As an aside, the concept is great... the penalties associated are lame.
Ophidian23 05-17-07, 03:19 AM	They're stupidly hard to find. Least ritual: Abilities level 5 through 10. Lesser ritual: Abilities level 11 through 16. Greater ritual: Abilities level 17 through 20. Where is that listed? It looked like it might be something like that but I'm seriously not finding it. ;( Additionally, I'm seeing the rituals claiming to grant "Feats". Are thes some sort of bonus "Feat" or must you devote actual Feat slots to them to gain any benefit?
DarkRhystar 05-17-07, 03:22 AM	Where is that listed? It looked like it might be something like that but I'm seriously not finding it. ;( It's found in the Weapons of Legacy book. A great deal of information wasn't clearly specified in Tome of Battle. Additionally, I'm seeing the rituals claiming to grant "Feats". Are thes some sort of bonus "Feat" or must you devote actual Feat slots to them to gain any benefit? Here's the way it works (more or less): You get to level 5. You perform the Least Ritual. You gain the Least Legacy feat which unlocks the corresponding abilities (5-10). You get to level 11. You perform the Lesser Ritual. You gain the Lesser Legacy feat which unlocks the corresponding abilities (11-16). You get to level 17. You perform the Greater Ritual. You gain the Greater Legacy feat which unlocks the corresponding abilities (17-20). You gain these feats as bonus feats (in case that wasn't clear).
Sleepwalker13666 05-17-07, 04:38 AM	Unfortunatly both books where terribly organized on this, I had to read WoL twice before I understood it.
DarkRhystar 05-17-07, 01:15 PM	Unfortunatly both books where terribly organized on this, I had to read WoL twice before I understood it. Yep. In my first game where Weapons of Legacy appeared (way back when), the DM at the time "house ruled" that the feats were gained as bonus feats because no one could find something that said one way or another. Of course we found out later that we had "house ruled" the game to work as per the rules but the answer was practically "on display" in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying, "Beware of the Leopard."
narukagami 05-17-07, 09:02 PM	It would have been way less confusing if WotC had not had them be "feats" at all and just said something along the lines of "After performing the ritual, you gain use of abilities up to level X". WoL was a great idea, but the book was poorly organized. For some reason, as already said, that poor organization carried over to ToB's Legacy Weapons.
pmurray@bigpond.com 05-17-07, 11:00 PM	May I also add, at this point, that the legacy weapons in the ToB are pretty lame? I wouldn't spend my feats on 'em.
narukagami 05-18-07, 07:14 AM	May I also add, at this point, that the legacy weapons in the ToB are pretty lame? I wouldn't spend my feats on 'em. You don't spend any feats on them, though.:P
pmurray@bigpond.com 05-21-07, 12:38 AM	You don't spend any feats on them, though.:P Actually ... I'd like to modify my opinion a little. The Tiger Claw weapon (which is the one I was looking at) scales until it's crit modifier is *4. Now ... a warblade gets his Int bonus to damage at level 4. Plus, Blood in the Water adds a stcking bonus to damage. Since these are bonuses (not bonus die), they multiply on a critical hit. With Improved Critical, my ITWF warblade is threatening more than 1 critical per round (on average) ... so basically, it's a lot of extra damage. Might speak to the DM about it :cool: , see if he feels generous.
Ophidian23 06-07-07, 10:39 PM	May I also add, at this point, that the legacy weapons in the ToB are pretty lame? Rule and stat wise possibly, but I asked about them because I thought some of them were thematically interesting. Some form of the desert blade will likely show up in one of my games....
Anguirus23 06-07-07, 10:53 PM	I actually like those legacy weapons. One of my PCs asked to use Desert Wind, so I'm planning to eventually have them try to bring together all of the Nine Swords. I think the legacy system as written is very clumsy and, worse still, punishes the player. So what I do is eyeball the columns and pick one or two that will apply. Plenty of those items are fine with their gold piece cost and some minor penalty to saves rather than depriving a player of their highest spell slot, for instance. My players would be fools to develop a legacy with such a cost instead of just spending their money on something from the MIC, and I want to reward them for using those items instead of discouraging them.
Aryxbez 06-11-07, 12:47 AM	I think the penalties are fine, as long there is no more than 3, and the penalties are not too harmful to the character. You and the DM should work stuff out to make sure the penalties don't totally hurt your character. Such penalties I can think of are Penalty to all saves, skill point loss, and high level spell slots. The only time these penalties should come up is when there are 1-2 types of penalties. Also I find some of the items in Weapon of Legacy cool, and the TOB as well, however I have modified some legacy items like the Bullybashers gauntlets(WOL) to be more like superb boxing gloves. I have also removed or replaced penalties with other legacy items as well.
Sleepwalker13666 06-11-07, 01:01 AM	A few of them are good, Desert Wind is my favorite, a friend of mine earned the white raven sword, however in one game I gave Shishi-O a try, that weapon is a steaming pile of :censored:
Kirech 09-22-07, 04:42 PM	Found this thread while searching for something on the optimization possibilities for legacy weapons. I did a very rough analysis of the costs associated with Shadow Awn (the shadow hand legacy weapon) and the benefits gained, taking into account that a stealth character is less likely to buy a constitution bonus item (unless he were losing HP and Fort saves for a legacy weapon), and it seems like it's a ridiculously good deal at higher levels. A +2 ghost touch speed dagger with +3d6 sneak attack, a built in ring of invisibility, and a handful of useful stealth abilities is well worth the price of the rituals, a periapt of health +2, and a nicer cloak of resistance than you'd normally buy. The +2 while flanking makes up for the -2 to attacks most of the time. At lower levels, the advantages are only really there if you get a lot of use out of the 5th level ability to hide from flat-footed foes. A whisper gnome swordsage or maybe daring outlaw would be pretty well-served by this weapon.
StormStrike 02-22-08, 10:07 PM	some quick math to show that legacy weapons are in no way overcosted because of the penalties associated with them following example used because abilities were most easily calculated as equivalent spells and such, and comes from ToB <b>Unfettered (Stone Dragon)</b> at 20th lvl provides a +5 (50,000g)weapon that grants you the following: -Use of the manuever Charging Minitor 5/day with a +2 Strength bonus for resolving the bull rush part of the manuever (equal to 5 matial scripts per day - 250g) -Enlarge person 1/day (equal to a scroll per day - 125g) -Meld into Stone 1/day ( caster lvl twice that of normal scroll - 350g x2 (700) + damage bonus on next stone drgon manuver (can't calculate)) -Light fortification as the armor enhancement ability, Which normally requires a minimum of +2 overall bonus on armor - 4000g (minimum) -Disembodied Blade 1/day ( super powerful version of a scroll of Mordankainen's Sword at above 4 lvls above minimum for scroll (17th)- at least 2975g - + 6 bonus to strength ( as belt of giant strength - 36,000g) Overall cost of all bonuses - 94,050g Cost of Sword plus unlocking all three leagacy rituals - 62,350 Difference 31,700g Assuming that armor ability i mentioned only came from a +1 Light fort armor... not a +3, light fort, Ghost touch armor So according to the prices, the penalties of -2 Atk, -4 Reflex save, and Loss of 12 hit points, costs 31,700 gold... Sounds fair to me. Reflex saves can't kill you outright, like fort or will saves can, especially high lvl saves. 12 hit points lost when the character likely to use this weapon are Crusaders and WarBlades with D10 and D12 Hit Dice, respectivly, and the probably have a good Con score since the are both front line fighters. Lets throw being a dwarf on top of that for kicks (+2Con score/1 extra hit point per lvl). And the minus 2 atack is made up for by +6 strength (+3 atk) and the fact that its a +5 weapon, overall atack modifacation to +6. The only problem i have with the lagacy weapon system is that some of the requirments for the rituals are rediculous. For example, Supernal Clarity must be STOLEN from it curent wielder to be used by you. If you find it unguarded you must give it to someone stronger than you, then steal it back. how about the Kamate, which requires you to defeat 10 enemies by yourself in a single encounter, the CR of each being no more than 4 lower than our own... So at 16th lvl you would need to kill 10 CR12's by yourself, have fun. And after all these trying tasks, someone with a Eventides Edge must only spend an hour medetating at dusk, envisioning the setting sun. Thats the equivalend of downing 10 enemies by yourseld in single combat? whatever:confused:
runestar 02-22-08, 10:21 PM	You can infer the levels from tiny snippets scattered here and there. For example, on page140, eventide's crux of balance ability states "when you first unlock .... at 5th lv", indicating that least legacy is granted at 5th lv earliest. Same for page 141, umbral awn's shadowcloak feature. Then on page145, under tiger fang's sharp claw ability, it mentions "once you have performed lesser legacy at lv11", suggesting that least legacy stops at lv10, and lesser legacy takes over at lv11. Last but not least, power crit (pg145) also mentions "when you unlock ... at lv17". Pretty much self explanatory. But still no less annoying, to say the least.:mad:
Kouk 02-23-08, 04:29 AM	DarkRhystar's description is correct. The description given in the ToB is very brief, and I would recommend you read the chapter about creating or forging legacies in the Weapons of Legacy book before using any kind of Legacy Item, if only to understand more about the principles of it. ... And if your DM is adventurous, maybe you could try one of my alternate Weapons of Legacy systems in the link in my sig. <shameless plug>