Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkerDreams 10-30-04, 02:42 PM	This is a set of ideas I started kicking around, I'm looking for other ideas and comments on balance. The primary focus is to give wizards a reason to amass libraries of books and value them. Some of the following texts are legitimately as powerful as magic items, however they tend to be more expensive and difficult to create than such items. It would be appropriate for many texts, such as reference manuals, research resources, and translation guides, to require a familiarization period. I suggest that this period be a number of hours equal to the number of pages in the book divided by the character’s intelligence. Note that a character cannot spend more time reading a book in a shot (especially one as dry as many of these texts would tend to get) than they could spend working on a magic item or crafting. Some texts, such as the instructional treatise, have this familiarization period included in their use. Adventuring mages and scholars often take these types of materials with them to read and become familiar with, the amount of progress per day that these characters get to invest in their reading is a matter between the individual DM and player. Further, most texts (especially instructional texts such as the treatises) are entirely inappropriate to allow the original author to gain any bonus from. This text uses Craft (scribe) to create these items, however it would be appropriate to allow Profession (scribe) to be used in an identical manner. DMs may wish to dictate that only one of these skills is available to characters, or to allow these skills to grant synergy bonuses to one another. Later in this thread I've posted a set of rules for creating libraries here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6164772&postcount=10) For other similar work I’ve done see this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=379403). Books, Nonmagical; Copies of Texts; Copying a nonmagical text is easier than its initial creation (though no less expensive in raw materials). Copying the text is done with Craft (scribe) checks. This process is identical to that used to create the texts initially; a check is performed each week, each creating a certain amount of progress measured in sp, until the market value of the item is reached. However, the benefit of copying a text is tangible; the Craft check is performed at a -15 DC. This means that an unhurried scribe may take longer to copy the manual than it initially took to write, however they are also less likely to fail a given check. If the scribe wishes they may attempt to hurry the work by increasing the DC by a multiple of 10. Reference Manual; Reference manuals provide a temporary competence bonus to selected aspects of any one Knowledge skill. When creating a manual the creator must choose a specialty of the skill for which it will apply. If a situation for which that specialty arises, a reference manual appropriate to the subject may be used. Use requires the character have familiarity with the subject (at least as many ranks in the skill as the manual grants bonus) and 1d4 +1 standard actions worth of work (this is, however, an activity which does provoke attacks of opportunity). At the end of this time the character may make the appropriate skill check with the bonus provided by the manual. Some particularly good manuals allow the character may spend 5d4 rounds of work pouring over the manual to take 10 on the check (but not receive the bonus normally provided by the manual). Alternatively, a greater improvement allows the character to take 10d4 minutes to take 20 on the check. Creating a reference manual requires Craft (scribe) checks to create. The DC for this check is 20 + the bonus amount (max bonus +5), this DC is increased by 5 if the book is to allow someone to take 10 or by 10 if it also allows them to take 20. Creation also requires the character to have twice the number of ranks in the skill as the bonus item is to grant. The cost of the raw materials to create a Reference Manual is the bonus it grants times 100 gp, and its market value is three times that. Manuals that allow a character to take 10 or 20 must grant a +5 bonus and have double and triple the market value (respectively). Reference manuals are 50 pages long plus 50 pages per point of bonus, and often are similar in appearance to spellbooks. Unlike many books reference manuals are one of the few tomes of use to their original author. Common knowledge skills and some related specialties; * Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts) * Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications) * Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking) * Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people) * History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities, specific countries) * Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids) * Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin) * Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities) * Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead) * The planes (a specific Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes) Skill Treatise; Skill Treatises provide a permanent competence bonus to any one Intelligence based skill. Use requires the character have familiarity with the subject (at least as many ranks in the skill as the treatise grants bonus) and that the treatise be studied for one hour per page of text. At the end of this time the character may receive the permanent competence bonus provided by the treatise. Creating a skill treatise requires Craft (scribe) checks to create. The DC for this check is 30 + twice the bonus amount (max bonus +5). Creation also requires the character to have twice the number of ranks in the skill as the bonus item is to grant. The cost of the raw materials to create a skill treatise is the bonus it grants squared times 1,000 gp, and its market value is five times that. Skill Treatises are 100 pages long per point of bonus, and often are similar in appearance to spellbooks. Translation Guide; Translation guides are created to aid people who wish to read (or speak) a language they do not know. A translation guide is created with two languages that can be converted between. Use of the guide quadruples the amount of time it takes to read a given text, but allows access to information that might otherwise be inaccessible. If a character wishes to use a translation guide to communicate verbally they may do so, however each sentence spoken takes a full round action to translate and speak and any Charisma based check for interaction made thus have a -3 competence penalty. If a character needs to use multiple translation guides in succession (such as when translating through multiple obscure languages without a more direct translation guide) multiplication of reading times stack, as do additional rounds of translation for spoken phrases and penalties to Charisma based checks. Creating a translation guide requires Craft (scribe) checks to create and proficiency in both languages to be included. The DC for this check is 15. A translation guide costs 100 gp to make and has a retail price of twice that value. These books are often simple in appearance, have 100 pages, and have both languages on the cover or spine of the book. Instructional Treatise; These great books are sometimes written by masters of their trade in an effort to impart to students a measure of the lessons they have learned. To create an Instructional Treatise requires Craft (scribe) checks. The DC and benefits of this treatise are determined by its level, which may never be higher than the level of its creator in the chosen class at the time writing is started. The creator must also choose a certain number of prerequisite feats and class features which they meet. A student who wishes to gain the benefits of an instructional treatise must spend 8 hours per day studying the treatise and working through exercises it lays out. Doing this allows the character to gain 100 xp the next time they take a level in the specified class. A student who wishes to study such a treatise and gain its benefits must have at least one level in the class it is written for, meet all the prerequisite feats or class abilities, and have a character level no greater than twice that of the treatise. There is a maximum amount of experience a character can gain from studying a text, after which no further experience can be accumulated from further study of that author's writings by the student. These books are often lavish for their size, using high class materials for embellishment and multi-hued inks for illumination. level Number of Max Xp DC to Materials pages Market Value prerequisites gain create cost (gp) (gp) 2 3 100 25 300 200 10,000 3 3 300 26 400 300 30,000 4 3 600 26 500 300 60,000 5 4 1,000 27 600 400 100,000 6 4 1,500 28 700 500 150,000 7 4 2,100 29 800 600 210,000 8 6 2,800 29 900 600 280,000 9 6 3,600 30 1,000 700 360,000 10 6 4,500 31 1,100 800 450,000 11 8 5,500 32 1,200 900 550,000 12 8 6,600 32 1,300 900 660,000 13 8 7,800 33 1,400 1,000 780,000 14 9 9,100 34 1,500 1,100 910,000 15 9 10,500 35 1,600 1,200 1,050,000 16 9 12,000 35 1,700 1,200 1,200,000 17 10 13,600 36 1,800 1,300 1,360,000 18 10 15,300 37 1,900 1,400 1,530,000 19 10 17,100 38 2,000 1,500 1,710,000 20 11 18,900 39 2,100 1,500 1,890,000 Artistic Works; A huge number of books hold little or no real, substantial benefit. Their entire value hinges on their value as objects of art, both visually and in terms of their text. These types of items usually have about 1 page per gp in value, though some rare or well made texts will have values of up to 10 gp per page. Some examples of these texts (and example values taken from the art section of the treasure tables in the DMG) include; Value Average Example (Craft (scribe) DC to create) 1d10 x 10 gp 55 gp Brief discourse or paper (5) 3d6 x 10 gp 105 gp Novelette, or other short fiction work (10) 1d6 x 100 gp 350 gp Novel, well written brief. (10) 1d10 x 100 gp 550 gp “cheap” sacred text. (15) 2d6 x 100 gp 700 gp (15) 3d6 x 100 gp 1,050 gp Illuminated religious text (20) 4d6 x 100 gp 1,400 gp (20) 5d6 x 100 gp 1,750 gp (25) 1d4 x 1,000 gp 2,500 gp Cathedral-grade Illuminated text(25) 1d6 x 1,000 gp 3,500 gp (30) 2d4 x 1,000 gp 5,000 gp (30) 2d6 x 1,000 gp 7,000 gp Ancient, extremely rare, or often referenced tome (35) Research Resources; Another valuable type of non-magical book, especially for spellcasters, is a Research Resource. These books explain not only how an individual spell, or set of spells, is cast- but the principals that make them work and how they are related. By examining the similarities between spells a spellcaster can reduce the amount of experimenting required (and thus cash). These types of books often have names like “Aldeal’s Text on the Necromantic effects of Dust” and “A Treatise on Temporal Shifts.” When creating a research resource the writer must determine the specific school of spells they wish to discuss. For example a book on conjuration would not help when researching spells in the school of abjuration, transmutation, or any other school of magic (no resource for universal magic has ever been reliably reported). After determining the focus of the resource the rating of the resource must be chosen. A writer may create a resource with a rating no higher than one half of his ranks knowledge (arcane) and Spellcraft combined. The raw materials for this resource costs 10x its rating in gold and the resource has a number of pages equal to 100x its rating. The Craft (scribe) DC to actually create the resource is 5 + twice the resource’s rating, and its market price is 300 gp x the rating squared. The benefit gained for possession of such a resource is often considered to outweigh its cost by wizards who research new spells or guilds which can afford to add them to their libraries. Any resources used to reduce the price of experimentation provide either a percentage reduction in price equal to their total rating or a bonus to Spellcraft checks to research the spell. A given resource can provide either bonus, however its entire rating must be dedicated to that function for the entirety of that spell research and cannot be reassigned. Any number of resources may be used to create this reduction, however no two copies of the same text can be used at the same time, no two texts used may have the same rating, no text used may have been written by the person performing research, and this reduction may never exceed 99% of the required expenditures for experimentation. Extra time spent developing a spell is spent in research, so no reduction in development time is possible. Spellbooks; For random spellbooks refer to the following chart. Along the left side is the level of the caster, while the top is the level of the spell. To fill the book randomly roll on the Scroll chart in the DMG, ignoring repeated spells. CL 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 2+int 2 4+int 3 5+int 2 4 6+ int 4 5 10+int 5 2 6 15+1d4 6 4 7 20 7 4 2 8 21 8 5 4 9 22 9 6 4 2 10 23 10 7 5 4 11 24 11 7 6 4 2 12 25 12 8 7 5 4 13 25 13 9 7 6 4 2 14 25 14 10 8 7 4 4 15 25 15 10 9 7 5 4 2 16 25 15 11 10 8 5 4 4 17 25 15 12 10 9 5 5 4 2 18 25 15 13 11 10 6 5 4 4 19 25 15 13 12 10 6 5 5 6 20 25 15 14 13 11 6 6 5 8 Spellbooks take many, many pages normally (the geometer PrC in complete arcane can change that, requiring only one page per spell). The number of pages of the spellbooks above, by level, are as follows. CL total pages 1 12+int mod 2 14+int mod 3 19+int mod 4 24+int mod 5 36+int mod 6 46+1d4 7 61 8 85 9 96 10 116 11 135 12 158 13 182 14 210 15 238 16 266 17 300 18 327 19 357 20 376 (note; I've posted this spellbook breakdown before, but I moved it here from a that thread for completeness.) edited; added research resources, and artistic works. Cleaned up tables and readability, and added some notes at the beginning. edited; expanded benefits available to research resources, cleaned up specifications on pricing and use of several books, modified craft DC and sharply increased the raw materials cost on instructional treatises. Also added skill treatises.
Levism84 10-30-04, 09:21 PM	Now, I am no bookologist (hmm... "bookologist" might be an interesting prestige class name...) but I like the concepts you are presenting here, but am unfamiliar with the mechanics of nonmagical item creation. You have reference books, translation guides, and thesis' but what else could there be for someone like a librarian or scholar to use (hmm.. "librarian" might also be a good prestige class...)? Well, I am just trying to see if you have any more ideas about possible text applications? BTW- I am trying to piece together a librarian/bookologist/scholar sort of class, but it seems to appear more like Agent Paper from Read or Die. Needless to say, I would like some more academic based skills and abilities. Keep posting. ~Rain~
DarkerDreams 10-31-04, 01:57 AM	this is actually the extent that I've reached and I'm questioning the cost/benefit balance some... as for creating non-magical items look in the SRD under the craft skill. (I pre-empted it for Profession: scribe in this case, an act that I'm reconsidering pending picking out a Craft that doesn't sound lame...) I'm trying to think of more ideas/get input from others on the boards for new ideas- so if something more comes to me I'll surely add to/alter this. As for "librarian" the loremaster PrC comes close (in 3.0 one of the prerequisites was a fairly expensive library- but I'm not seeing that prereq in the SRD now...) so for a starting point you might want to look at that and the expert NPC class.
DarkerDreams 02-01-05, 06:23 PM	:bump:
BlackFiend 02-02-05, 06:13 AM	I like the concept a lot. Very original in many ways. Unfortunately, the barrier in my mind is the fact that if you can create an instruction manual to allow one to take 10, then you should also be able to coach (verbally) someone and allow them to take 10. There aren't many magic items that allow one to take 10 or 20 at any time under any distress. Also...one can normally take 10 on most rolls any way...so what benefit is the text? Suggestion: Make reading the book equivalent to a Aid Other good for 1 hour. It takes one hour to read, but it grants the bonus as if someone aided you during your task. I would make the bonus apply to very specific, even narrow circumstances. Now here is the fun part...the scalability. Each text has a DC it was crafted at. Of course, the creator or author of the original text sets the DC...no higher than there 5 + skill ranks. In order to read and comprehend the text you need to have: 1. At least 1 rank in the skill. 2. Intelligence Check vs the DC of the text At the end of 1 hours reading, the user must make an Intelligence Check vs the DC of the book. Unfortunately, success means that you have understood everything in the text and can no longer gain further aid other from the book. If the book is set to a very high DC, it may be impossible for some to read the book. Thats fine. For those that can, there is a point when they comprehend it already and learn nothing applicable. Here is an example of such a text: The Quagmatist - Existential Manual Concerning Quick Potion Identification Written by Fosco Luckytoe (Halfling Magi of the 12th Order) Comprehension DC 15 This text assists with Spellcraft checks related to indentifying potions. It has charts, graphs, formulas and many practicals related to this topic. This text is often sold with a handcrafted MW alchemist lab supposedly made by Fosco Luckytoe himself.
DarkerDreams 02-02-05, 12:09 PM	I like the concept a lot. Very original in many ways. thank you. Unfortunately, the barrier in my mind is the fact that if you can create an instruction manual to allow one to take 10, then you should also be able to coach (verbally) someone and allow them to take 10. there are a number of things I think you *should* be able to do that you can't... here someone's taken the time to list out and organize information in a way that *should* encourage you to remember what you already know and have tidbits you might not feel important (or common) enough to memorize... I've allowed groups with the knowledge skill to do a brainstorming session and all aid another, which can quickly become a better deal than taking 10. There aren't many magic items that allow one to take 10 or 20 at any time under any distress. this is true... and one thing that poses a concern for me. I feel, however, that it ends up balancing through cost, prerequisites, and making a check that is normally a free action take 30seconds to several minutes... but I've been wrong. Also...one can normally take 10 on most rolls any way...so what benefit is the text? you can't take 10 on decipher script and knowledge checks. Suggestion: Make reading the book equivalent to a Aid Other good for 1 hour. It takes one hour to read, but it grants the bonus as if someone aided you during your task. I would make the bonus apply to very specific, even narrow circumstances. there's something to this- there should be a "familiarization time," but I prefer to keep the book as something more like a math book... useless most of the time, unless you happen to need that one formula- then you can dig it out and *ding* that's the key you were missing! Now here is the fun part...the scalability. Each text has a DC it was crafted at. Of course, the creator or author of the original text sets the DC...no higher than there 5 + skill ranks. In order to read and comprehend the text you need to have: 1. At least 1 rank in the skill. 2. Intelligence Check vs the DC of the text At the end of 1 hours reading, the user must make an Intelligence Check vs the DC of the book. Unfortunately, success means that you have understood everything in the text and can no longer gain further aid other from the book. If the book is set to a very high DC, it may be impossible for some to read the book. Thats fine. For those that can, there is a point when they comprehend it already and learn nothing applicable. Here is an example of such a text: The Quagmatist - Existential Manual Concerning Quick Potion Identification Written by Fosco Luckytoe (Halfling Magi of the 12th Order) Comprehension DC 15 This text assists with Spellcraft checks related to indentifying potions. It has charts, graphs, formulas and many practicals related to this topic. This text is often sold with a handcrafted MW alchemist lab supposedly made by Fosco Luckytoe himself. I like this comprehension idea... I'll have to chew on it a bit though. however, if an item is going give a limited amount of help I feel it should be either permanent bonus (an idea that I disgarded, but may be able to balance adding this to the things I was working on previously) or be limited by how much you already know ("introduction to arithmatic" isn't going to help someone who can do calculus in their head)
DarkerDreams 05-11-05, 02:53 PM	edited original post; added research resources, and artistic works (which still need more examples). Cleaned up tables and readability, and added some notes at the beginning.
Tbird 05-11-05, 08:17 PM	This is great. I can't tell you how much this rocks. I was thinking of something like this myself, including the librarian PrC that was mentioned. I only have 1 question, why does the time needed for a take 20 become so much larger opposed to the time for a take 10? Once again, this rocks. Excellent work! T
DarkerDreams 05-11-05, 11:01 PM	Thanks. Complements like that are always good for the ego ;-) (and encouragement to keep posting this stuff online since no one wants to publish it...) I like the PrC idea, but I have no idea how to implement it, between the Loremaster and the Geometer I'm fairly well covered (and I play characters who like books)... As for why the lingth of time to take 20; frankly, no other ability in the game allows you to take 20 with these skills. Taking 10, and 20 are supposed to take the same amount of time as attempting the skill 10 and 20 times would. However, some balance needs to be struck, so I decided that taking huge amounts of extra time (and money to get the text) would be fair (and representative of searching charts, tables, indexes, and text). also; edited original post to add spellbooks.
DarkerDreams 05-12-05, 05:24 PM	Libraries; Studying in libraries can grants access to huge amounts of information, which can be translated to circumstance bonuses on knowledge checks. Using a library requires time, depending on how well organized the library is and how much of a bonus the character wants to use. A library has a circumstance bonus which is rated for each of the 10 knowledge skills (Arcana, Architecture and Engeneering, Dungeoneering, Geography, History, Local, Nature, Nobility and royalty, Religion, and the Planes). Usually a library will have a general rating for all categories, and then will specialize by raising certain categories above that. Other libraries seek to specialize further, sacrificing general knowledge for specific focus. Using libraries; The base amount of time that must be spent in a library to get a single point of circumstance bonus is determined by the character’s skill and the organizational quality of the library. Libraries are particularly valuable in that they allow characters to make Knowledge checks untrained. The first point of bonus in a subject is negated (and maximum bonus reduced by one) but the check may still be attempted after research is completed (using their base intelligence modifier, plus any bonus from study in the library). Level Max total Max Subject Basic Minimum of Organization Bonus Bonus Time Time None +1 +1 36 hours 8 hours Vague +10 +1 24 hours 4 hour General +10 +3 16 hours 1 hour Average +20 +5 8 hours 1 hour Referenced +40 +7 8 hours 10 minutes Cross-Referenced +60 +9 4 hours 10 minutes Perfect unlimited unlimited 1 hour 10 minutes Level of Organization; None; This type of library is nothing more than stacks of books. When adding books, or starting a library, it always starts this way until organized into a better system. Vague; This type of library is usually either a step towards better organization or a result of intense use without restoring order. Books have been sorted into general categories, but remain in stacks and piles. General; This level of organization requires that the books be shelved with reasonable space between stacks. Using shelves roughly 25,000 pages of book (plus access areas) can be fit into a 5’ cube at this level of organization. While the books are sorted by general topic and shelved each section remains internally disorganized. Average; This level adds organization to the individual sections, by title, author, or other index as an individual library determines. Referenced; In this type of library there is a catalogue (requiring a 5’ cube of space per 20 points of bonus the library has available) which indicates where books are in the library and some other basic information about them. Cross-Referenced; This level of organization requires a larger catalogue (two 5’ cubes per 20 points of bonus the library has available) which cross references different related materials and provides other research guides. Perfect; At this level of organization much of the cataloguing of books is either magical or so well done that it seems intuitive. Few libraries actually achieve this level of organization, though all serious institutions desire it. Maximum total bonus; This is the maximum amount of bonus the library can have regardless of the number of books it possesses. This is not the maximum bonus for each knowledge skill, but for all skills added together. For example a library with thousands of pages worth of books in unorganized piles very little information can be retrieved. Maximum subject bonus; This is the maximum bonus to any one knowledge skill that the library can grant. Basic Time; It takes a period of work to gain each point of circumstance bonus to a knowledge skill. This is the base amount of time it takes. This can be reduced by personal knowledge of the skill at a rate of 1 hour per rank to a minimum of one hour, and then by 10 minutes per rank, if allowable. Minimum Time; This is the least amount of time it can take for a search granting each +1 competence bonus. For example a character in a perfectly organized library with 6 ranks in a knowledge skill would still require 10 minutes to gain each point of bonus. Note; The Research feat in the Eberron campaign setting grants 2 abilities. The first listed ability, when used in conjunction with these rules, means that the character can gain the maximum bonus they are eligable for from that library in 1d4 hour or the time listed here, whichever is less. Building a library; The first item of interest to a library is books. Type, quality, and quantity. The vast majority of books in a library fall under the listing of “artistic works.” These books contain useful knowledge, and general information but lack the special internal indexing and depth to individually provide bonuses. The two primary measures of a library are value and size. On average a book of significant value to a library is going to be approximately 1 gp per page, and approximately 2,000 gp worth of books will give the library enough resources to grant a +1 circumstance bonus on a knowledge check to its patrons. Further, 1,000 pages takes up, roughly 1 cubic foot on its own. Once some level of organization is imposed this is subsumed into the larger area required for that. Special books, such as those listed here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4728426&postcount=1) do not contribute to the general value of a library the same way they generate value on their own. Because they are internally indexed and specifically focused only about 1/10th the market value is added to the value of the library (if these books aren’t kept separate and safe). If points in a specific focus within a knowledge skill are desired (Knowledge(arcana; necromancy), for example), one point of general bonus can be used for 4 points in a more specific subject. Note that the focus of a library must be decided before books are bought. Buying (or finding) 2,000 gp worth of books on the history of international war will not allow your library to improve its bonus for knowledge (the Planes). Once you have your library it needs to be organized. All libraries start with no organization, and work then must be invested in sorting, shelving and cataloguing these books. Any number of people may cooperate on this task; however one person must clearly be in charge. Current New Man hours Level Level Required None Vague 1 hr/1000 pages Vague General 1 hr/1000 pages General Average 1 hr/1000 pages Average Referenced 1 hr/100 pages Referenced Cross-Referenced 1 hr/100 pages Cross-Referenced Perfect 1 hr/10 pages Note that if books are added to a library they are treated as a separate library with its own organization (starting with none) until time is spent to bring the organizational level of these new books up to the level of the rest of the library. If a significant section is intentionally removed from the library it retains the level of bonus that the library is reduced by, organized at a level one lower than the remainder of the library. Maintaining a library; This is the unglamorous life of the librarian and usually it can be completely ignored. To maintain organization and quality in a library it must be constantly monitored, books reshelved, and order preserved. This is measured in man-hours of work, and often handled by hiring librarians or assigning apprentices (multiple people are a requirement for significantly sized libraries). The minimum amount of work required to maintain organization depends on the amount of use a library sees, and failing to meet this level of maintenance results in the organizational level of the library dropping one category. Level of Use; Negligible; An almost unused private library with few or no visitors, all of whom care for their own needs meticulously. Each year one hour worth of maintenance per 1,000 pages of books must be performed. Light; A library with few visitors, most of whom care for their own needs. Each month one hour worth of maintenance per 1,000 pages of books must be performed. Moderate; A semi-private library with some visitors, often related to a guild. Each week one hour worth of maintenance per 1,000 pages of books must be performed. Heavy; A public, or semi-public (university) library. Each day one hour worth of maintenance per 1,000 pages of books must be performed. Example libraries; In Sharn; City of Towers the Morgrave library is listed as being able to grant a +6 circumstance bonus to Knowledge (history) checks related to Sharn and Xen’drik, +4 to Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (geography), and other Knowledge (history) checks, and +2 to all other Knowledge checks. History has 6 points of bonus (+4 for general history and an additional 2 points each in Sharn and Xen’drik). Arcana, dungeoneering, and geography each have 4 points (for a total of 12). The six other Knowledge skills each have 2 points (for a total of 12 points). The total bonus granted by Morgrave is 30. This means that Morgrave has at least a referencing system (which we could safely assume) and it will take 8 hours as base time for each point of circumstance bonus a character wants to use (but possibly as little as 10 minutes if they have 12 ranks in that knowledge). The value of the books in this library is somewhere around 60,000 gp, requiring 60 man hours of librarian maintenance per day (8 librarians just to keep this busy library in order) Candlekeep, the legendary vault of knowledge in the Forgotten Realms is beyond peer on its world. Never having seen a description of the library, I’ll make one using these rules. For its pre-eminence, it does not have the staff or magic to retain a perfect system- but it has definitely been referenced and cross-referenced over the years. Further, we’ll assume it has reached its max total bonus through diligent work and its practice of charging a 100 gp value book to each person who passes through its gates. One could divide the total +60 between the ten knowledge skills (giving a +6 bonus to any knowledge check). However one can imagine that over time its gathered a number of resources that would provide a better bonus to history than other things, so we’ll start by giving the Keep a +9 bonus to Knowledge (history) in general (the maximum bonus possible with its organization). Dividing the remaining points evenly gives a +5 to all other Knowledges with one extra point. Given the predilection of mages and arcanists to be bookish to start with we’ll slide the extra point there. If someone wanted to study in candlekeep they would require 4 hours per point of circumstance bonus (reducible depending on their own skill) and could gain a maximum bonus of +9 to history, +6 to arcane, or +5 to any other knowledge. The total value of the books in the library (not including facilities) is somewhere in excess of 120,000 gp, and it takes of fifteen 8 hour days a month (distributed among the residents in smaller amounts) to maintain the lightly used shelves. A mage character decides to set up his own library. He spends 10,000 GP on books regarding knowledge (nobility and royalty) and local, having neglected these skills in his studies, and 2,000 on books related to knowledge (arcana). These 12,000 pages of books take him (or hired help) 156 man-hours (19.5 eight hour shifts) to sort into a library granting a +5 bonus to knowledge (nobility and royalty) and (local) and a +1 to knowledge (arcana) with an average organization. Some time later this mage and his friends defeat a necromancer who has been terrorizing the countryside. Upon invading his sanctum the wizard discovers a necromantic library worth 2,000 gp. After they’ve finished everything else the wizard claims the library and adds it to his own (requiring 26 hours) and now his library grants a +5 to knowledge (arcane) checks related to Necromancy (but, still only +1 for other knowledge (arcane) checks).
DarkerDreams 08-02-05, 01:31 PM	With constant use and familiarization experts, wizards, and others with a studious bent become more familiar with their favorite libraries, and more able to find things in their favored haunts. The following rules are for those who spend large amounts of time stalking the spaces between stacks hunting for treasures among the pages of books. As this is not a path chosen by many, and carries few enough benefits for those who do, it is unlikely that it will be any more unbalancing than the preceding rules for libraries. However, for those who are more comfortable requiring limitations a feat should suffice to provide access: Favored Library [General] Prerequisite: Intelligence 13+ Benefit: Able to use the following rules for favoring libraries. A favored library is a library in which you have spent large amounts of time and generally become more familiar than the normal user. This can provide a number of benefits, which will be covered in a moment. In general, if a character spends the vast majority of their time in a particular library it's safe to assume they meet the conditions for favoring that library. However, for a more mechanical view of limitations on favoring a library the following conditions must be met. * The character must have spent at least 1 hour per 1,000 pages in the facility doing research or work in that library. This time is cumulative. * The library cannot have been reorganized (improved or decreased organizational level) since this research time was completed unless you were involved in the reorganization. * The library cannot have added more than 10,000 pages since the research time was completed unless you were involved in the addition of materials. Once the first condition is met the library may be favored. If either of the last two items become a bar a reduced amount of work in the library will allow re-familiarization with a previously favored library. In a library that has been added to you must spend time to familiarize yourself with the new material (1 hour per 4,000 pages). In a library which has had its organization improved you must only spend an hour per 10,000 pages learning the new system, while libraries which have deteriorated require 1 hour per 4,000 pages. Note that this time can be research or time spent working in the library (on maintenance or organization), and all are cumulative towards the total necessary time. Benefits: A character may treat one library as favored per point of intelligence bonus, or may favor a particular library repeatedly. For example, a character with 16 intelligence can favor three libraries, one library twice and another library once, or one library three times. For each point of intelligence bonus focused on a library the character may treat their favored library as one rank better organized. This can hasten research times automatically, but also has the potential to raise the available bonuses in a library for the individual user, assuming the books are present but not organized (a library can not provide a bonus it does not have the resources to accommodate). This system means that a character with a small, personal library can be essentially completely unorganized but still usable, while the vast but untapable resources of larger facilities become usable. In many cases this will mean determining if there are enough books to justify a higher level bonus but that it lacks organization, this is rarely an issue in any but the largest, least tended libraries (candlekeep), though the study time and requirements for access should be more prohibitive towards amassing truly egregious bonuses than the availability of resources. Further, if a character can treat a library as perfectly organized they may put more points of intelligence bonus towards favoring that location, with each additional point providing a +1 competence bonus to one skill the library provides bonuses to. Thus a character with a 12 intelligence in a perfectly organized library could choose one knowledge the library had a bonus for and receive an additional +1 competence bonus when he accessed the facility's circumstance bonus. This competence bonus does not exceed the circumstance bonus the library is providing at the time, thus to receive a +2 competence bonus the character would have to have two points of "favor" towards the particular skill in that library (above the requirements to make it "perfectly organized") and then spend the research time to gain a +2 circumstance bonus on that check.
mikebook 08-03-05, 04:40 PM	I am a librarian... History would be a Knowledge skill, several others as well. The problem I can see would be access and organization of the library. The first system that was large enough and worked was Dewey, and that was in the Late 1800's. There are a few examples of other systems. A librarian would be a sage-type of person, not like a loremaster. A large city such as Greyhawk or Waterdeep would be able to have a lending library, plus it could have special collections for music, magic, and other subjects... Plus it gives a reason to take "Research" from D20 Modern...
DarkerDreams 08-04-05, 01:31 PM	I am a librarian... History would be a Knowledge skill, several others as well. per SRD The problem I can see would be access and organization of the library. absolutely. I've tried to cover that without beeing too detailed in my "creation of libraries" section... I didn't want this to become Abacuses and Accountants- but I've tried (through time and required space/equippment) to replicate those concerns. The first system that was large enough and worked was Dewey, and that was in the Late 1800's. There are a few examples of other systems. I actually didn't know that. I assume that these libraries will largely be set up on custom systems that may or may not be practical- as libraries in the middle ages and before were. A librarian would be a sage-type of person, not like a loremaster. I disagree there. not because the first part is wrong (sages, read: experts, are the perfect class for this) but because you're ignoring the entire flavor and style of the loremaster class... loremaster is a PrC librarian- as opposed to an NPC librarian. A large city such as Greyhawk or Waterdeep would be able to have a lending library, I was under the impression lending libraries are a relatively modern phenominon and that mid-ages and rennesaunce books were too rare and precious to consider lending out- even for a while after the advent of the printing press they just weren't that common nor were owners that confident of getting their things returned. (I could very well be wrong as this is almost etirely interpolation from nearly unrelated knoweldge) plus it could have special collections for music, magic, and other subjects... absolutely. Plus it gives a reason to take "Research" from D20 Modern... [/quote] again, yes. I need to go back and compair d20m "research" to eberron "research."
mikebook 08-13-05, 01:00 AM	The first lending library was in Philidelphia in the mid-1700's, started by Benjamin Franklin, among others. I was under the impression that a librarian would not need spells, but a librarian at a wizard's school would need to be able to be a full wizard and a librarian.
mikebook 08-13-05, 01:08 AM	Check out the ALA website for some details of the profession. I really enjoy being a librarian... For a game setting, printed books would be rare and that the books would look very similar to hand-copied books. Plus the gold and jewels would really push the price up... Use of a printing press would be possible, but the output for books would be slow and still painstaking. Howver, it would be faster than a bunch of scribes. If I can help, please do not hesitate to contact me off list...
FlameLover 08-13-05, 02:30 AM	My problem is with the Craft (scribe) and/or Proffesion (scribe). I think the check should be with the associated skill or if there isn't a skill something else. PCs should be able to write books on subjects, even if they didn't take Craft (scribe) since day one! Atleast that's what I think. Anyway i love the ideas but for me these rules are just too complicated, like the weather and enviroment dangers in Frostburn there is a threshold for me before I just say 'alright, +2 or -2 on skill checks and attack rolls' rofl Anyway great work but maybe try and simplify it a little? I liked the rules in Arms & Equipment Guide for libraries too, they were simple and easy to implement (especially for the local town library or guild resource)
sir_argenon 08-13-05, 06:56 AM	i just have to tell you that this is great work, i have nothing constructive to add however, because you truly have thought and applied far more about this subject than i could have!! keep it up, great job!!
DarkerDreams 08-15-05, 06:24 PM	Check out the ALA website for some details of the profession. I really enjoy being a librarian... I actually considered that as a carreer path once... I don't think it would have been for me though. For a game setting, printed books would be rare and that the books would look very similar to hand-copied books. Plus the gold and jewels would really push the price up... Use of a printing press would be possible, but the output for books would be slow and still painstaking. Howver, it would be faster than a bunch of scribes. If I can help, please do not hesitate to contact me off list... I already knew most of this, except that the scribe/press/book reproduction is different for different worlds... something I didn't want to think to hard about. the one thing I'd really like that I'm not sure how to do is fill out the examples in the art table... If you have some ideas from experience I'd be happy to hear them (on thread or as PM). The first lending library was in Philidelphia in the mid-1700's, started by Benjamin Franklin, among others. now that you mention it I remember hearing that long ago... I had forgotten however. duely noted. I was under the impression that a librarian would not need spells, but a librarian at a wizard's school would need to be able to be a full wizard and a librarian. actually, I can't think of any good reason a librarian would ever *need* to be a wizard- I just see many wizards as being naturally inclined towards that sort of lifestyle/profession. My problem is with the Craft (scribe) and/or Proffesion (scribe). I think the check should be with the associated skill or if there isn't a skill something else. I required the "scribe" skill because writing about something is vastly different from actually doing/knowing it- especially when you want to write something of exceptional quality and usefulness. If a character "merely" wants to write a "art piece" book (one that might be useful as part of a library, but not provide special bonuses) I might let them write a book on the subject using only their regular skill bonus, but requiring a +5 DC. PCs should be able to write books on subjects, even if they didn't take Craft (scribe) since day one! Atleast that's what I think. actually, you can pour skillpoints into Craft (scribe) at later levels to "catch up" (a great thing about 3.x). Aside from that, there has to be some limiting factor- these are bonus granting items that are not magical in nature. Anyway i love the ideas but for me these rules are just too complicated, like the weather and enviroment dangers in Frostburn there is a threshold for me before I just say 'alright, +2 or -2 on skill checks and attack rolls' rofl I suppose my presentation here might make it seem that overwhelming- because I have a habit of going for the "core equasions" (son of a sociologist who grew up programming and is going into law- suddenly the driving forces in my writing style should be crystal clear)... the vast majority of this is downtime calculation that can eventually be swept into a few dice rolls and some GP expendature (often on hirelings to do it for you or raw materials). If there is a simplification/short cut you'd like to see somewhere let me know and I can try to condense something out for "end use". Anyway great work but maybe try and simplify it a little? I liked the rules in Arms & Equipment Guide for libraries too, they were simple and easy to implement (especially for the local town library or guild resource) still haven't gotten that book (something to do with the switch from 3.0 to 3.5) so I don't know anything about it. The rules for libraries I present are mostly to provide a balance for players who want to create their own library (and get something for it) under dm's concerned about the balance involved- or for DMs who are looking for some small tidbit about a library or want to develop a library based on set rules. basically- these are like the rules in the back of the DMG for creating brand new magic items: unnecessarry to use magic items, or to reproduce something that's common... however, I don't like just putting out "15 example libraries" or "101 example books" when I can give rules to make virtually any text you'd like and then add some useful examples to the end. ~shrugs~ I also don't like that the best rules for creating new and innovative constructs is a book from Mongoose publishing. if you'd like something constructed- examples or something that might be worth using, let me know and I can add that.