Boosting Exotic Weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Boosting Exotic Weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
draconic_swine
03-25-07, 03:10 PM As we all know, increasing the proficiency required to wield a weapon (e.g., going from a Simple one-handed weapon to a Martial one-handed weapon) adds an extra "feature" (e.g., an increase in damage or threat range or critical multiplier, the ability to trip, reach, a +2 bonus to disarm, etc.) to the weapon.

Well, I've seen it argued here and on other forums that spending a feat on an Exotic weapon proficiency isn't worth this single increase (such as going from 1d8 damage with a longsword to 1d10 damage with a bastard sword), and that most Exotic weapons aren't worth it. Usually the worthwhile Exotic weapons are those that are more powerful than other Exotics (such as the spiked chain). I know that I rarely see Exotic weapons used, even with martial-oriented classes with feats to burn.

I'm wondering if maybe it would be better to boost the power of all Exotic weapons to make them worth the feat - instead of adding one "feature" over that of an equivalent Martial weapon, add two features. This way you'd keep all Exotic weapons balanced with one another, and I'm pretty certain more people would be willling to use a feat on such a weapon.

I'm afraid, however, that this will lead to escalation - that pumping up Exotic weapons will make them powerful enough that everyone will want one over Martial or Simple weapons, and that even classes such as clerics and rogues will be more than willing to spend a precious feat. What does it matter if the Exotic weapons are balanced if no one is willing to use a martial weapon anymore?

What do you think? Will this make Exotic weapons too powerful, or is it just what they need to see more widespread use among martial classes?
NoldorForce
03-25-07, 03:44 PM But there's still the opportunity cost of the feat, and some character builds can be very tight on free feats. It seems reasonable to give out two features for an exotic weapon beyond those given to martial weapons (as with the spiked/scorpion chains), but I'd caution against both of them being damage increases. It's very much worth it at low levels when weapon damage beats everything else, and worthless at high levels when modifiers make it obsolete. Basically, the weapons should retain some usefulness beyond low levels.
Xeviat-DM
03-25-07, 04:42 PM The exotic weapons which see use in my games are the ones with new features. Mechanically speaking, the spiked chain is balanced against other exotics: it deals as much damage as a heavy mace, but is two-handed, and it has adjacent reach, disarm, and tripping properties.

The bastardsword/waraxe are generally not worth the extra feat cost, as they are weaker than taking Weapon Specialization. I wouldn't mind seeing more exotic weapons designed like the Complete Adventurer weapons (the ones which give special abilities when using certain fighting poses (combat expertise, power attack)). Ultimately, they need to be worth the cost, but also need to encourage the cost.

What sort of ideas would you have for improving the waraxe and the bastard sword?
ClementWillowbreaker
03-25-07, 04:55 PM The reason why the white-bread exotic weapons aren't used much is that most of them are just damage increases. There are lots of ways to increase damage. There aren't a lot of ways to get a good double weapon that lets you apply your weapon-specific feats all around. Weapon Specialization is popular and better, and if you aren't a Fighter, you have more important things/alternate sources of damage available to you.

Splatbooks have been giving lots of +2 bonuses for specific maneuvers/stances to both martial and exotic weapons, which are small enough to make them interesting. Giving a bastard sword a +2 bonus on sundering attempts would be nice, and narrow enough to not be a default feat.

Alternately, you could encourage exotic weapons by giving out their proficiencies. Fighters could get a free one somewhere/in place of heavy armor, for example, or you could make them regional benefits, or give more races familiarity in them. I have always thought of humans as the bastard-sword race, being the bastard race.
RavenDrake
03-25-07, 09:18 PM One thing I've considered doing is treating exotic weapons as "Weapon Groups"... for example:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Hand and a Half
You are proficient at weilding slightly oversized weapons
Benefit: When weilding a Hand and a Half version of a martial or simple weapon with which you are proficient, you may treat it as a one-handed weapon.
Normal: Hand and a half weapons are treated as two-handed martial weapons.

*Note: This covers the Bastard Sword and Waraxe and would open up other hand and a half weapons. The Bastard mechanic would have to be defined (I'd say increasing the damage one step and granting some bonus to sunder perhaps, only works on one handed weapons). This should increase the price by at least double.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Dire Weapons
You are proficient at weilding double-headed weapons.
Benefit: When weilding a Dire or double headed weapon, you are considered proficient if you are proficient with both of the component weapons.
Normal: Characters, even though proficient with the component weapons of a double-headed weapon, take a -4 non-proficiency penalty when weilding a double-headed weapon.

*Note: This covers things like the double sword and dire flail and opens up new avenues for new double weapons. For this to work you'd have to define the double weapon's mechanic. Basically you can mate together any two one handed or light martial or simple weapons which creates a double weapon. The natural damage incrase and feat concentration for twf-ing characters make them fairly balanced.

That's about as far as I've gotten... but something that gives more flexibility if not more power can expand the repetoir of exotic weapons....
StevenO
03-25-07, 09:27 PM To me the best way to impove the "value" of an Exotic Weapon feat is to actually make all those exotic double weapons useful. At present the Over-Sized TWF feat which drops the penalty for fighting with two one handed weapons from -4 to -2 basically trumps most of the exotic double weapons. It you treated both ends of the exotic double as a 1HW in terms of damage abilities (full Str and 1/1 PA) that would go a long ways toward making them useful.
Marcotic
03-30-07, 02:56 AM To me the best way to impove the "value" of an Exotic Weapon feat is to actually make all those exotic double weapons useful. At present the Over-Sized TWF feat which drops the penalty for fighting with two one handed weapons from -4 to -2 basically trumps most of the exotic double weapons. It you treated both ends of the exotic double as a 1HW in terms of damage abilities (full Str and 1/1 PA) that would go a long ways toward making them useful.

IMHO, I would much rather be dealing 1d8 1d8 as opposed to 1d10 1d10, because I also gain the ability to use the double weapon as a THW to swich tactics against High ac or enemies that warrant power attacks. to me that versitilty trumps 1 more average damage.

On this whole note though, i believe that the exotics should be brought up to par, but its a tricky situation for DWF war axe and the bastard, because any change you make also impoves it as a Martial weapon,
StevenO
03-30-07, 07:12 PM It is true that double weapons are more useful when making a single attack (thus treating it as a two-handed weapon) than using two one-handed weapons. What I dislike it that when you start going with a full attack using oversized-TWF is a little more advantageous than using an exotic double weapon.

Compare: Double Sword (exotic) vs. twin long swords (w/ Oversized)
Single Attack: DS (1d8 + 1.5 STR) vs LS (1d8 + 1.5 STR) [2hands on one sword]
Getting Disarmed: DS gets +4 on opposed, LS requires two disarms to completely disarm
Getting Sundered: DS more HP but still only one thing to sunder vs LSx2
2weapon Attack: DS (1d8 + STR/ 1d8 + .5 STR) vs LS (1d8 + STR/ 1d8 + .5 STR)
Power Attack with TWF: DS (+1:-1/0:-1) vs LS (+1:-1/+1/-1)

I could go on but basically an exotic double weapon differs little from using two one-handed weapons and oversized TWF. I'd like to see an overall improvement in TWF while using a double weapon, in particular I'd like to see a high STR user get as much benefit to damage using a double weapon as they would if using a basic two hander.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
draconic_swine 03-25-07, 03:10 PM	As we all know, increasing the proficiency required to wield a weapon (e.g., going from a Simple one-handed weapon to a Martial one-handed weapon) adds an extra "feature" (e.g., an increase in damage or threat range or critical multiplier, the ability to trip, reach, a +2 bonus to disarm, etc.) to the weapon. Well, I've seen it argued here and on other forums that spending a feat on an Exotic weapon proficiency isn't worth this single increase (such as going from 1d8 damage with a longsword to 1d10 damage with a bastard sword), and that most Exotic weapons aren't worth it. Usually the worthwhile Exotic weapons are those that are more powerful than other Exotics (such as the spiked chain). I know that I rarely see Exotic weapons used, even with martial-oriented classes with feats to burn. I'm wondering if maybe it would be better to boost the power of all Exotic weapons to make them worth the feat - instead of adding one "feature" over that of an equivalent Martial weapon, add two features. This way you'd keep all Exotic weapons balanced with one another, and I'm pretty certain more people would be willling to use a feat on such a weapon. I'm afraid, however, that this will lead to escalation - that pumping up Exotic weapons will make them powerful enough that everyone will want one over Martial or Simple weapons, and that even classes such as clerics and rogues will be more than willing to spend a precious feat. What does it matter if the Exotic weapons are balanced if no one is willing to use a martial weapon anymore? What do you think? Will this make Exotic weapons too powerful, or is it just what they need to see more widespread use among martial classes?
NoldorForce 03-25-07, 03:44 PM	But there's still the opportunity cost of the feat, and some character builds can be very tight on free feats. It seems reasonable to give out two features for an exotic weapon beyond those given to martial weapons (as with the spiked/scorpion chains), but I'd caution against both of them being damage increases. It's very much worth it at low levels when weapon damage beats everything else, and worthless at high levels when modifiers make it obsolete. Basically, the weapons should retain some usefulness beyond low levels.
Xeviat-DM 03-25-07, 04:42 PM	The exotic weapons which see use in my games are the ones with new features. Mechanically speaking, the spiked chain is balanced against other exotics: it deals as much damage as a heavy mace, but is two-handed, and it has adjacent reach, disarm, and tripping properties. The bastardsword/waraxe are generally not worth the extra feat cost, as they are weaker than taking Weapon Specialization. I wouldn't mind seeing more exotic weapons designed like the Complete Adventurer weapons (the ones which give special abilities when using certain fighting poses (combat expertise, power attack)). Ultimately, they need to be worth the cost, but also need to encourage the cost. What sort of ideas would you have for improving the waraxe and the bastard sword?
ClementWillowbreaker 03-25-07, 04:55 PM	The reason why the white-bread exotic weapons aren't used much is that most of them are just damage increases. There are lots of ways to increase damage. There aren't a lot of ways to get a good double weapon that lets you apply your weapon-specific feats all around. Weapon Specialization is popular and better, and if you aren't a Fighter, you have more important things/alternate sources of damage available to you. Splatbooks have been giving lots of +2 bonuses for specific maneuvers/stances to both martial and exotic weapons, which are small enough to make them interesting. Giving a bastard sword a +2 bonus on sundering attempts would be nice, and narrow enough to not be a default feat. Alternately, you could encourage exotic weapons by giving out their proficiencies. Fighters could get a free one somewhere/in place of heavy armor, for example, or you could make them regional benefits, or give more races familiarity in them. I have always thought of humans as the bastard-sword race, being the bastard race.
RavenDrake 03-25-07, 09:18 PM	One thing I've considered doing is treating exotic weapons as "Weapon Groups"... for example: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Hand and a Half You are proficient at weilding slightly oversized weapons Benefit: When weilding a Hand and a Half version of a martial or simple weapon with which you are proficient, you may treat it as a one-handed weapon. Normal: Hand and a half weapons are treated as two-handed martial weapons. Note: This covers the Bastard Sword and Waraxe and would open up other hand and a half weapons. The Bastard mechanic would have to be defined (I'd say increasing the damage one step and granting some bonus to sunder perhaps, only works on one handed weapons). This should increase the price by at least double. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Dire Weapons You are proficient at weilding double-headed weapons. Benefit: When weilding a Dire or double headed weapon, you are considered proficient if you are proficient with both of the component weapons. Normal: Characters, even though proficient with the component weapons of a double-headed weapon, take a -4 non-proficiency penalty when weilding a double-headed weapon. Note: This covers things like the double sword and dire flail and opens up new avenues for new double weapons. For this to work you'd have to define the double weapon's mechanic. Basically you can mate together any two one handed or light martial or simple weapons which creates a double weapon. The natural damage incrase and feat concentration for twf-ing characters make them fairly balanced. That's about as far as I've gotten... but something that gives more flexibility if not more power can expand the repetoir of exotic weapons....
StevenO 03-25-07, 09:27 PM	To me the best way to impove the "value" of an Exotic Weapon feat is to actually make all those exotic double weapons useful. At present the Over-Sized TWF feat which drops the penalty for fighting with two one handed weapons from -4 to -2 basically trumps most of the exotic double weapons. It you treated both ends of the exotic double as a 1HW in terms of damage abilities (full Str and 1/1 PA) that would go a long ways toward making them useful.
Marcotic 03-30-07, 02:56 AM	To me the best way to impove the "value" of an Exotic Weapon feat is to actually make all those exotic double weapons useful. At present the Over-Sized TWF feat which drops the penalty for fighting with two one handed weapons from -4 to -2 basically trumps most of the exotic double weapons. It you treated both ends of the exotic double as a 1HW in terms of damage abilities (full Str and 1/1 PA) that would go a long ways toward making them useful. IMHO, I would much rather be dealing 1d8 1d8 as opposed to 1d10 1d10, because I also gain the ability to use the double weapon as a THW to swich tactics against High ac or enemies that warrant power attacks. to me that versitilty trumps 1 more average damage. On this whole note though, i believe that the exotics should be brought up to par, but its a tricky situation for DWF war axe and the bastard, because any change you make also impoves it as a Martial weapon,
StevenO 03-30-07, 07:12 PM	It is true that double weapons are more useful when making a single attack (thus treating it as a two-handed weapon) than using two one-handed weapons. What I dislike it that when you start going with a full attack using oversized-TWF is a little more advantageous than using an exotic double weapon. Compare: Double Sword (exotic) vs. twin long swords (w/ Oversized) Single Attack: DS (1d8 + 1.5 STR) vs LS (1d8 + 1.5 STR) [2hands on one sword] Getting Disarmed: DS gets +4 on opposed, LS requires two disarms to completely disarm Getting Sundered: DS more HP but still only one thing to sunder vs LSx2 2weapon Attack: DS (1d8 + STR/ 1d8 + .5 STR) vs LS (1d8 + STR/ 1d8 + .5 STR) Power Attack with TWF: DS (+1:-1/0:-1) vs LS (+1:-1/+1/-1) I could go on but basically an exotic double weapon differs little from using two one-handed weapons and oversized TWF. I'd like to see an overall improvement in TWF while using a double weapon, in particular I'd like to see a high STR user get as much benefit to damage using a double weapon as they would if using a basic two hander.