Boots of speed vs slow spell [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTimePost
Rolof

12-05-06, 03:42 AM
This has been bothering me for a while now, and I've been mulling it over for a
couple of weeks since the last game session. My character is ranger9/fighter4
and specializes in archery. With rapid shot and boots of speed, he can get off
5 shots per round at 22/22/22/17/12 and does a d8+9 per hit. The DM often
complains about my damage output, and in a recent battle, seemingly set out
to specifically do something about it.

We fought a large group of Drow, and their wizard cast slow on me. OK, I've
got no problem with that, Drow are smart and it makes sense for them to slow
down the guy shooting 5 arrows a round. Here's where the problem comes in:
On my next round, I said "Ok, as a free action I dismiss the haste effect, then
activate it again.", because in the PHB it says haste counters slow. The DM,
after some mulling and reading, then ruled this:

You cannot stay hasted-if you use your haste, for the duration of this fight,
instead of hasting you, it puts you back to normal speed. If you discontinue
the haste effect, you then suffer the slow effect.

Now, my arguement was that since I was hasted in the first place, the slow
spell should have simply put me back to normal, and countered my haste, only
to be allowed to activate it again on the next round (activating the boots is a
free action, unlike many other magic items). I feel that his judgement was just
a bit colored by the fact that he doesn't like my attack/damage rate. Perhaps
I am wrong, I'm perfectly willing to concede that, since I don't normally play a
spellcaster and spells are my worst area of knowledge in the game.

Thoughts and opinions?
IdleAltruism

12-05-06, 03:55 AM
Im looking at slow 3.5 it counters and dispels haste. You are correct the slow spell would have never affected you.
RavenDrake

12-05-06, 10:45 AM
Actually, that's not how I intrepret the 'counters and dispels' line.

Counter means that it can be used to counterspell the haste spell. Dispel means that, when this spell goes into effect, it dispells any haste effect that is already on the creature. To quote:

Spells with Opposite Effects

Spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a spell’s description.

To me, that means that an oppponents spell always takes hold(if you fail your save) and applies any applicable penalties. Additionally, certain spells(such as Haste versus Slow) dispel thier opposite number when they go into effect.

Which, if you use that interpretation, would mean one of two things for the op's example depending on whether you consider Boots of Haste to A) Simply provide a Haste-like effect, or B) Provide individual rounds of the Haste spell.

If A) Then boots of haste and the Slow spell will not dispel each other, and each will apply thier full benefit and/or penalty while both are active.

If B) then(by my interpretation) when Slow was cast it would dispel your Haste effect and go into effect itself. If, later, you were to activate your boots, then that new Haste effect would dispel the Slow effect and go into effect itself.
Nom

12-05-06, 03:10 PM
I agree with the DM. The boots don't provide a haste spell, but they do speed you up. However, since they don't provide the spell, it won't have it's normal "counter or dispel" (specifically dispel) effect on slow. So you can and will be slowed and hasted at the same time. The obvious solition is that the two effects will cancel each other out while both are active.
SALDAR

12-05-06, 03:21 PM
When spells counter each other, such as in counterspell, neither spell takes effect. The one that counters does not take effect after countering. It uses its magical energy to counter and is spent. Slow counters and dispels haste. Once cast on a creature under a haste effect the haste is ended but the slow spell does not take effect as its energy was used not to affect the creature but to dispel the haste. If you allow the slow to both dispel the haste and slow the target then you are getting two spells for the casting of one.
jaelis

12-05-06, 03:24 PM
Boots of Speed
As a free action, the wearer can click her boot heels together, enabling her to act as though affected by a haste spell for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the haste effect need not be consecutive rounds.

Note it specifically doesn't say you cast the haste spell. I'd say you just get a haste-like effect, that neither counters nor dispels the slow spell. Basically Ravendrake's option A.
SALDAR

12-05-06, 04:58 PM
You act as if affected by the haste spell. So slow does counter the haste from Boots of Speed since it is the same effect. Slow would also dispel a haste effect from a spell-like or supernatural ability even though you are not specifically casting the haste spell.
jaelis

12-05-06, 05:24 PM
I doubt you would allow the boot wearer to counterspell a slow spell (or an actual haste spell, for that matter).
mvincent

12-05-06, 06:48 PM
So you can and will be slowed and hasted at the same time. The obvious solition is that the two effects will cancel each other out while both are active.Agreed.
RavenDrake

12-06-06, 02:27 AM
When spells counter each other, such as in counterspell, neither spell takes effect. The one that counters does not take effect after countering. It uses its magical energy to counter and is spent. Slow counters and dispels haste. Once cast on a creature under a haste effect the haste is ended but the slow spell does not take effect as its energy was used not to affect the creature but to dispel the haste. If you allow the slow to both dispel the haste and slow the target then you are getting two spells for the casting of one.

There's a difference between countering and dispelling that you are not fully taking into account.

Countering means that you can also use this spell to counter a spell as it is being cast. Ie: an opponent tries to cast haste while you have a readied action to counterspell. You have both haste and slow memorized, but want to use your haste spell to enhance your fighter. You can cast the slow spell to counter the haste spell as it is being cast just as if it were the spell in question.

Dispelling is removeing a spell effect after it's come into existance. To me, that means that certain spells, (such as Slow and Haste) dispel each other when cast, removing thier opposite as they come into effect.

If there's somewhere that more clearly defines how these spells "dispel" each other(whether they just use themselves up in the dispelling, as you seem to think they do, or whether it works like I think) then I'd love to see it.
SALDAR

12-06-06, 11:21 AM
If there's somewhere that more clearly defines how these spells "dispel" each other(whether they just use themselves up in the dispelling, as you seem to think they do, or whether it works like I think) then I'd love to see it.

From the SRD:
Under Combining Magical Effects:
Spells with Opposite Effects: Spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a spell’s description.
Spells that counter negate each other. Counterspelling is done during the casting of a spell. If the spell being countered, not counterspelled, is already in effect then the spells negate each other. Negation as in neither spell is in effect.

From the Slow spell:
Slow counters and dispels haste.
When slow is cast on a creature under a haste effect, no matter the source, both spells are negated. The haste effect ends and the slow effect does not take effect.

I doubt you would allow the boot wearer to counterspell a slow spell (or an actual haste spell, for that matter).
If a character wearing Boots of Speed were placed under a slow effect and then activated the haste effect of the boots, the haste and slow effects would negate each other. The wearer would then have to activate the boots again to gain the benefits of haste.
jaelis

12-06-06, 11:27 AM
If a character wearing Boots of Speed were placed under a slow effect and then activated the haste effect of the boots, the haste and slow effects would negate each other. The wearer would then have to activate the boots again to gain the benefits of haste.

Yes, you feel that using the boots is the equivalent of casting a haste spell insofar as dispelling or being dispelled by a slow spell is concerned.

My point is that I doubt you extend that equivalence to counterspelling. In other words, if I think that my opponent is about to cast haste to buff his allies, do you think that I can ready an action to activate my boots to counterspell him? But the dispelling and counterspelling effects go together... by your logic, it would seem that counterspelling should also work.
RavenDrake

12-06-06, 11:35 AM
Spells that counter negate each other. Counterspelling is done during the casting of a spell. If the spell being countered, not counterspelled, is already in effect then the spells negate each other. Negation as in neither spell is in effect.

Actually, no, that is incorrect. Counter refers ONLY to counterspelling a spell as it is being cast. Counter and Dispel are two seperate things, as deliniated in this passage, under Counterspelling in the Player's Handbook:

Specific Exceptions: Some spells specifically counter each other, especially when they have diametrically opposed effects. For example, you can counter a haste spell with a slow spell as well as with another haste spell, or you can counter reduce person with enlarge person.

The Dispel powers of any given spell are seperate from the counter powers, as there are spells which do one but not the other (See the description of Hallow/Unhallow).

Spells which negate other spells in effect already are "Dispel" effect spells.
SALDAR

12-06-06, 03:13 PM
My point is that I doubt you extend that equivalence to counterspelling. In other words, if I think that my opponent is about to cast haste to buff his allies, do you think that I can ready an action to activate my boots to counterspell him? But the dispelling and counterspelling effects go together... by your logic, it would seem that counterspelling should also work.
Counterspelling has nothing to do with it. I'm not counterspelling the casting of a spell. I'm using an effect that counters an effect that is already in place. Slow counters haste and haste counters slow. If one of these effects is in place on a creature and the opposite effect is placed upon that creature then these effects negate each other.

Actually, no, that is incorrect. Counter refers ONLY to counterspelling a spell as it is being cast. Counter and Dispel are two seperate things, as deliniated in this passage, under Counterspelling in the Player's Handbook:
This passage comes from the section on counterspelling. I am not counterspelling. I am Combining Magical Effects which states:
From PHB pg 172.
Spells with Opposite Effects: Spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a spell’s description.
Counterspelling is totally seperate from Combining Magical Effects and according to the section quoted above the term counter not only applies to counterspelling but also to combining magical effects. Both sections state that certain spells counter each other.
jaelis

12-06-06, 03:21 PM
Oh, I see, you're reading "counters" as a distinct thing from counterspelling. So in fact, you would not let a caster counterspell a slow spell using a haste spell, even with no item involved.

I guess that's fair enough. But is "counters" itself defined anywhere, or are you just using the plain English sense of it?

Personally, I think they are using "counters" as the verb form of "counterspells".
calvinNhobbes

12-06-06, 03:45 PM
Personally, I think they are using "counters" as the verb form of "counterspells".
Which is a good assumption, since WOTC also makes MTG, and that is how counterspell cards are worded.
Steevo

12-07-06, 12:07 AM
dispel: Negate, supress or remove one or more existing spells or other effects on a creature, item, or area.



Boots of Speed
As a free action, the wearer can click her boot heels together, enabling her to act as though affected by a haste spell for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the haste effect need not be consecutive rounds.


I seem to recall reading something about if a permanent magic item is subject to a dispel effect, it is supressed for ten minutes (or something like that.) Unfortunately I can't find the passage right now.

My personal ruling: If you had the boots active when the slow spell was cast, the slow spell would dispel your haste effect, rendering the boots inert for ten minutes. Thus you would not be able to restart them next round and you would lose their benefit (practically) for the rest of the combat.

I would likewise allow the boots to dispel a slow spell that had already been cast on the boot-wearer, provided they were not previously active when the slow spell was cast (otherwise the slow would have dispelled the boots as above.)

In both of these cases, the boot wearer is left acting at normal speed.

I would not allow either of these effects to counter the other, however. The idea of the boot wearer sitting there with a readied action to counter an enemy's slow spell is just silly, imho (not to mention the boots explicitly target their wearer only, so how you get them to target an opponent's slow spell that hasn't even been cast yet is beyond me). For balance purposes I would also veto the idea of countering the boots with a readied counterspell action. Activating the boots is a free action, as has been mentioned, and thus it takes effect too quickly for an opponent to properly counterspell.
SALDAR

12-10-06, 01:10 PM
Oh, I see, you're reading "counters" as a distinct thing from counterspelling. So in fact, you would not let a caster counterspell a slow spell using a haste spell, even with no item involved.
Where did I make this statement? I didn't and it is preposterous to make such an assumption. I simply pointed out that the term counter is used in both the Counterspelling and Combining Magical Effects descriptions as opposed to RavenDrake's comment that the term counter "refers ONLY to counterspelling," which is incorrect. You are not counterspelling when combining magical effects since counterspelling is a totally different aspect of the game.

Spells that counter each are used both to counterspell each other in that circumstance and to negate the opposite magical effect in a different circumstance. Slow counters haste. There are two situations where this comes into play. One is when you are counterspelling the casting of the haste spell by casting the slow spell, which stops the haste spell from coming into effect. The other is when someone is under a haste effect from any source and slow is cast upon them, which, since they negate each other as stated in the Combining Magical Effects section, ends the haste effect and slow does not come into effect.
Rixuzalthu

12-10-06, 03:03 PM
I would rule that the slow spell is in effect on "you", not the boots. It would "counter" the boots which were in effect when the slow was cast. The slow would "counter" the haste, meaning the wearer could move normally for the round. Each round the boots would have to be activated (as free action) to allow normal movement for the duration of the slow spell.

The haste effect would counter the slow effect but not dispel it, because its a haste spell effect, not the haste spell being cast.

It would not matter the RAW, this is how I would abjucate this.