Post/Author/DateTime	Post
YabaTheWhat 04-12-07, 01:41 PM	Every once in a while, I wonder why the Boots of Striding and Springing were crafted using the Longstrider spell. Both Longstrider and Expeditious Retreat are first-level spells. The latter has a shorter duration, so it would theoretically cost double. By the item creation rules, an item crafted by a druid using the Longstrider spell would cost 2000 GP on the open market, while one crafted by a wizard using Expeditious Retreat would cost 4000 GP. Strangely, neither of these figures matter, because Boots of Striding and Springing sell for a whopping 5500 GP according to the DMG (v3.5). A pair of Expeditious Boots (4000 GP) would grant a 30 ft boost to land speed, which in turn provides a +18 bonus on running jump checks. (Standing jumps don't benefit.) Longstrider Boots (2000 GP) would grant a 10 ft boost to land speed, providing a +6 bonus to running jump checks. Boots of Striding and Springing provide a 10 ft boost to land speed (as per Longstrider) with an additional +5 bonus to all jump checks (2500 GP), plus additional padding on the market price (1000 GP). So what's the deal? As far as I can tell, there are no other benefits to Longstrider besides its duration. Is a +5 bonus to standing jumps really that valuable?
jadehawk 04-12-07, 01:58 PM	Note the spell used to create a magic item is not actually used necessarily in its pure form to calculate the price. Think of the spell requirement as a concept a crafter would have to know to properly create an item. Also note that the formulas for calculating magic items are actually guidelines and are supposed to be used as last resorts after extinguishing other options of determining the value of an item (which typically goes as 1) compare to a similar item, 2) compare to a similarly powered item, 3) use the formulas, play it out and modify the price after game testing. The only parts of the formula guidelines I use hard and fast are the top parts that simply improve an attack bonus, ac bonus, skill check, etc. Those guidelines are hardly ever modified in magic descriptions (until you get into modifying durations or stacking powers together).
Nephlite 04-12-07, 02:06 PM	Every once in a while, I wonder why the Boots of Striding and Springing were crafted using the Longstrider spell. Both Longstrider and Expeditious Retreat are first-level spells. The latter has a shorter duration, so it would theoretically cost double. By the item creation rules, an item crafted by a druid using the Longstrider spell would cost 2000 GP on the open market, while one crafted by a wizard using Expeditious Retreat would cost 4000 GP. Strangely, neither of these figures matter, because Boots of Striding and Springing sell for a whopping 5500 GP according to the DMG (v3.5). A pair of Expeditious Boots (4000 GP) would grant a 30 ft boost to land speed, which in turn provides a +18 bonus on running jump checks. (Standing jumps don't benefit.) Longstrider Boots (2000 GP) would grant a 10 ft boost to land speed, providing a +6 bonus to running jump checks. Boots of Striding and Springing provide a 10 ft boost to land speed (as per Longstrider) with an additional +5 bonus to all jump checks (2500 GP), plus additional padding on the market price (1000 GP). So what's the deal? As far as I can tell, there are no other benefits to Longstrider besides its duration. Is a +5 bonus to standing jumps really that valuable? I believe that the boots have a discount due to Longstringer having so long a duration and the spell is weaker than Expeditious spell (it says some things must be estimated by power). I'd say Expenditious boots would be worth at least 8 k.
Vegepygmy 04-12-07, 02:35 PM	A pair of Expeditious Boots (4000 GP) would grant a 30 ft boost to land speed, which in turn provides a +18 bonus on running jump checks. (Standing jumps don't benefit.)Nitpick: the bonus would be +12 and it applies to all Jump checks, whether standing or running. Longstrider Boots (2000 GP) would grant a 10 ft boost to land speed, providing a +4 bonus to running jump checks.
DragonDan 04-12-07, 03:44 PM	I think you missed the part about having Multliple Different Abilities (sidebar on pg 282, DMG) on the same item, which increases the cost of said item. My math works out to this (please correct if wrong): crafting boots with +5 jump = 2500 (5*5*100gp) adding +10 speed via Longstrider = 3000 (level 1 spell * level 1 caster * 2000gp + 50% for multiple different abilities). So having 2 different abilities on one set of boots is the reason for the 1000gp padding.
Dheran 04-12-07, 07:07 PM	If boots providing only a +10' speed enhancement are fairly priced at 2,000 gp, what's the fair cost of boots providing a +30' speed enhancement? Using Expeditious Retreat as the formula results in a cost of 4,000 gp. However, pricing by spell is the last option you're supposed to use, and generally yields a low item price. Three times the speed boost for only twice the cost means 4,000 gp is obviously too low. The first option you're supposed to use is the similar item check. Most characters have a base speed of 30'. Boots of Swiftness double your base speed, yielding a similar speed boost. Boots of Swiftness cost 256,000 gp. That's a bit on the high side. "Speed" isn't on the "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" table, but most magic items with a measurable enhancement use a formula like Bonus squared × 2,000 gp. This works perfectly if we treat each +10' of speed enhancement as a single bonus unit. So boots granting +10' speed enhancement cost 2,000 gp, and boots granting +30' speed enhancement would cost 18,000 gp. I think that's just about right.
Vegepygmy 04-12-07, 07:39 PM	"Speed" isn't on the "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" table, but most magic items with a measurable enhancement use a formula like Bonus squared × 2,000 gp. This works perfectly if we treat each +10' of speed enhancement as a single bonus unit. So boots granting +10' speed enhancement cost 2,000 gp, and boots granting +30' speed enhancement would cost 18,000 gp. I think that's just about right.I agree.
allenchan 04-12-07, 09:16 PM	I agree. Ditto
Jaxgaret 04-12-07, 11:48 PM	18,000 gp for Expeditious Boots sounds fair to me.
YabaTheWhat 04-13-07, 07:51 AM	A measure of (10 ft increments) squared x 2000 GP actually does sound fair. Though it does make me wonder if the Expeditious Retreat spell needs to have its own balance tweaked. Also, thanks for pointing out the proper speed adjustment to jumps. I'd noticed the -6 penalty per 10 ft decrease (making the halfling's +2 jump bonus an insult), and reversed it.
Oliver D'Argent 04-13-07, 08:14 AM	The actual bonus to the Jump skill provided by these items varies considerably based on what the wearer's actual move speed is, since there is a -6 penalty for speeds under 30 feet and a +4 bonus for every 10 feet of speed over 30 feet. Base Move: 15 ft Boots of Springing and Striding: -1 Boots of Expeditious Retreat: +4 Base Move: 20 ft Boots of Springing and Striding: +5 Boots of Expeditious Retreat: +8 Base Move: 30 ft Boots of Springing and Striding: +9 Boots of Expeditious Retreat: +12 Base Move: 40 ft Boots of Springing and Striding: +13 Boots of Expeditious Retreat: +16 Since a Monk's Fast movement ability states that it is an Enhancement bonus (the same as either of the boots), a Monk of third level or higher would only gain the +5 to Jump from the Boots of Springing and Striding and a Monk of 9th level or higher would gain no benefit from the Boots of Expeditious Retreat.
Tamerlane 04-13-07, 08:15 AM	I feel this should be iterated on every thread of this type: The Table for Estimating Magic Item Values is a guideline, not a rule. Use at your own discretion. Magic item values should be evaluated based on their relative power, not strictly by the Table. Even items in the DMG vary from the table (some vary extremely).
The_Ditto 04-13-07, 09:10 AM	"Speed" isn't on the "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" table, but most magic items with a measurable enhancement use a formula like Bonus squared × 2,000 gp. This works perfectly if we treat each +10' of speed enhancement as a single bonus unit. So boots granting +10' speed enhancement cost 2,000 gp, and boots granting +30' speed enhancement would cost 18,000 gp. I think that's just about right. This is what our group started doing really quick ... worked fine as far as I could tell .. :tiphat: Ditto What?
Merestil Haye 04-13-07, 10:18 AM	I would agree that speed increases should scale quadratically. I would also point out that the rules expect speed increases to work in 5' jumps, not 10', and the speed increase scale should take that into account. I would suggest a formula of(speed increase/5)2 * 500gp.That's the formula I shall use, I think.
Scion of Coldshard 04-13-07, 10:49 AM	I'd say that the 4,000 gp price for the +30' enhancement bonus to movement is a lot closer to being appropriate than the other boots. At lower levels you are better off having a mount basically all of the time. At higher levels there are much better boots to be had than those that give you bonuses to speed only. Which means that the price here might still be a bit on the high side. Would you rather have these boots or a +1 weapon? Would you rather have these boots or be able to upgrade your weapon from +1 to +2? Would you rather have these boots and nonmagical armor or just +2 magical armor? I would say that in most combats having a speed of 30' means that you can get most places that you want to go without too much difficulty. With +30' movement you can get more places but I would expect a large portion of that extra movement to simply be wasted most of the time. For a melee character I would rather have the weapon or armor upgrade (and at 4,000 gp you could have both a +1 weapon, +1 armor, and half of a +1 cloak of resistance). For a guy who wants to get around a lot and fast, but is not too high of a level, I would get a mount (a griffon costs 3,500 gp as an egg, then food, and if you cannot train it yourself then 1,500 gp for a trainer and is an incredible beast to have as a mount). So even 4,000 gp might be a little high but it might work ok.
Zuractai 04-13-07, 12:36 PM	Speed increase can be very powerful. So +30 should be at least 3 times as much as the boots of striding and springing. 16500. So the formulas people have been using of the bonus squared times 2000 seems pretty good (in 10ft) or 5ft times 500 (Which for 30ft increase happens to be the same.) Sure most wariors would want a +3 sword instead, but thats the point of a trade off. Speed? Power? Ability to breath water? Personaly I want them all...
jaelis 04-13-07, 12:44 PM	I would agree that speed increases should scale quadratically. I would also point out that the rules expect speed increases to work in 5' jumps, not 10', and the speed increase scale should take that into account. I would suggest a formula of(speed increase/5)2 * 500gp.That's the formula I shall use, I think. I would just like to thank you very much for saying "quadratically" rather than "exponentially."
tafkamhokie 04-13-07, 01:09 PM	FWIW, I was a player in a game where the DM allowed me to craft some Boots of Expeditious Retreat for 4000 gp (market price). Biggest mistake he ever made. Brokety-broke-broke. A 18,000-ish cost is a whole lot more appropriate for what you get. Granted, I was a spring attacking gish, so my fundamental character concept revolved around high mobility. But those boots allowed me to do some silly things that were totally inappropriate for low-to-mid levels. If you want to allow them at all, I highly recommend the quadratic approach (i.e. cost is a function of the movement bonus squared) over the permanent 1st level spell approach to costing.
Scion of Coldshard 04-13-07, 01:40 PM	Speed increase can be very powerful. So +30 should be at least 3 times as much as the boots of striding and springing. 16500. The boots of springing and striding have two different effects built in, and the movement portion is the less costly of the two before the extra multiplier for being multiple bits in one item. If you are going to make them +15 to jump and +30' movement the price you quoted would make more sense, although I am not sure anyone in their right mind would pay that much for them. Sure most wariors would want a +3 sword instead, but thats the point of a trade off. Speed? Power? Ability to breath water? Personaly I want them all... There is a tradeoff for buying different kinds of gear yes, but that is also where relative price tags come in. Who is going to use these boots? When? How much effect are they going to have and in what situations? These are important questions. Biggest mistake he ever made. Brokety-broke-broke. Any reason why? A 18,000-ish cost is a whole lot more appropriate for what you get. For 12,000 gp you can get boots of speed which are so much more powerful than this item it is silly. Granted, I was a spring attacking gish, so my fundamental character concept revolved around high mobility. But those boots allowed me to do some silly things that were totally inappropriate for low-to-mid levels. What levels and what were you doing? Even with 60' of movement you would still be within charging range of anyone you hit with spring attack, so you would be trading one hit for one hit or they could ready an action to stop you or they might even be able to move away from you and shoot you with a ranged weapon negating your spring attack. Or someone could have gotten winged boots and flyby attack so that they could use standard actions and be out of the melee ability of many attackers. So really, when are these boots incredibly useful? Spring attack is a pretty nice use but even then it isnt adding all that much to the tactic that wasnt already there before. 4,000 gp puts it pretty squarely into the '6+' level range for people who would get it as well. Apparently people think that this is extremely powerful? Why? When? How?? And if it is so powerful why arent mounted combatants so incredibly over powered, just from their extra movement? A first level druid can have a camel with a 50' movement speed, ride is even a class skill!
Aracor 04-13-07, 02:15 PM	I'm not sure where to start. First of all, 60' will put you OUT of charge range of anyone wearing medium or heavy armor. With a level of barbarian for 70' you can put yourself out of range of anyone else. As for why it's so powerful, it's an always on bonus, as opposed to boots of speed which last a total of 10 rounds per day. I've had single combats at high level that last longer. Frankly, in the hands of a mobile character, it's huge. The ability to double move and be effectively uncatchable by anyone allows you to choose the grounds for your combats. As for why a mount isn't overpowered, the mount can die very easily. In which case it's not a problem any more.
Jaxgaret 04-13-07, 02:41 PM	For 12,000 gp you can get boots of speed which are so much more powerful than this item it is silly. If your character is not making full attacks, the only advantages there are to wearing Boots of Speed instead of Expeditious Boots is a +1 Dodge bonus to AC (which may not provide any bonus if the character already has a Dodge bonus from its race, feats, class abilities etc.), +1 to attack and +1 to Reflex saves. And it's limited to 10 rounds per day. It's nice. But color me unimpressed. Of course, for a wildshaped Druid, Boots of Speed are amazing. But what self-respecting Druid wildshaped into a bear will make himself look like he just stepped out of the circus by putting on some boots? :)
Zuractai 04-13-07, 02:52 PM	Mounts can also not be used in most dungeons, inside, up cliffs, etc. But you are right, a realy powerful mount can make you pretty powerful, that is one of the special things Paladins (And if you want Rangers and Druids) can get. But as mentioned before, if you run around on a mount, it may just get shot out from under youl. In 3.0 the boots gave +30ft of movement, there is a reason they changed that. And do you honestly believe +30ft of movement is worse then +10 and +5 to jump? Because those cost more then 4k
Scion of Coldshard 04-13-07, 02:59 PM	I'm not sure where to start. First of all, 60' will put you OUT of charge range of anyone wearing medium or heavy armor. Only if you started inside of their move action range to begin with, and they are not mounted, and they have no speed boosting item of their own. Plus they could simply move away from you and be out of your springing movement and do some sort of ranged attack or something else. I am not saying it is not a good option, I am merely saying that it is not the end-all, be-all tactic. With a level of barbarian for 70' you can put yourself out of range of anyone else. Only if you start with exactly one square between you and them. Plus the conditions above. As for why it's so powerful, it's an always on bonus, as opposed to boots of speed which last a total of 10 rounds per day. I've had single combats at high level that last longer. Frankly, in the hands of a mobile character, it's huge. The ability to double move and be effectively uncatchable by anyone allows you to choose the grounds for your combats. Always on bonus, yes. That is true. Of course you dont get a benefit from it all of the time. Only in a few specific circumstances and not a huge benefit even there. I guess we will simply have to disagree. You have shown a couple of cases where it can be beneficial, but nothing that amounts to the huge price tag that people want to put on the effect. Especially since you have shown no cases where it makes you untouchable or even anywhere near it. More mobile of course, but every build has a nitch area where it is strong. As for why a mount isn't overpowered, the mount can die very easily. In which case it's not a problem any more. Yeah, that camel mount with more hit points than the party barbarian is dieing really easily. If the item is problematic for a spcific build for a level or two and fine the rest of the time that is good enough for me really. Although there havent been any real problems shown yet, I am guessing you guys are saving the big guns for later.
Platstud 04-13-07, 03:02 PM	I would just like to thank you very much for saying "quadratically" rather than "exponentially." I'd be more impressed if his "new" formula wasn't exactly equal to the old one. (x/10)^2 * 2000 = (x/5 * 1/2)^2 * 2000 = (x/5)^2 * (1/2)^2 * 2000 = (x/5)^2 * 1/4 * 2000 = (x/5)^2 * 500
Scion of Coldshard 04-13-07, 03:04 PM	If your character is not making full attacks, the only advantages there are to wearing Boots of Speed instead of Expeditious Boots is a +1 Dodge bonus to AC (which may not provide any bonus if the character already has a Dodge bonus from its race, feats, class abilities etc.), +1 to attack and +1 to Reflex saves. And it's limited to 10 rounds per day. It's nice. But color me unimpressed. 10 rounds when you need it in a given day when you can get the boost to movement, boost to AC, boost to reflex saves, boost to your attack rolls, and even an extra attack at your highest attack bonus seems a whole lot better than the other boots to me. After all, how many rounds a day are you really going to need the extra movement? For a character who super specializes in movement they might need more than 10 rounds in a day where the extra speed will actually come in handy, but I doubt it. The number of factors that have to go just right for that to happen so many times in a day is staggering. Would it be useful? Certainly! But I'd say that the extra attack and other boosts along with the movement increase is easily an order of magnitude better in price ;) Of course, for a wildshaped Druid, Boots of Speed are amazing. But what self-respecting Druid wildshaped into a bear will make himself look like he just stepped out of the circus by putting on some boots? :) The kind who makes any who laugh at him turn into a bloody pile of goo? Possibly the kind who likes to stay alive past level 5 when he is in an animal form, items are still required to function well. Maybe the kind who had them made out of special fabric so that they look like the fur/skin of whatever creature that they are on. Who knows? It is still a viable option and character personalities are many.
Scion of Coldshard 04-13-07, 03:13 PM	In 3.0 the boots gave +30ft of movement, there is a reason they changed that. Because some of the designers are idiots. There are other examples of stupid rule changes as well. And do you honestly believe +30ft of movement is worse then +10 and +5 to jump? Because those cost more then 4k +30 is better. But then the boots of springing and striding are overpriced so what does that prove? +10' to move for 2,000 is ok, +30' to move for 4,000 is also ok. There are other places in the rules where getting triple the benefit is only twice as much as well, in case you like precident. Unfortunately skill boosting is a problem area. Some skills are simply better than others. Back in 3.0 there was the ring of jumping. +30 to your jump check and you get to ignore the max height limitation. Cool! It cost 2,000 gp and that was low enough to keep most people I saw from selling it immediately but no one really went out of their way to get it either. Especially since it took up a ring slot which can be a very important slot. So +30 to jump is ok for 2,000 gp. It probably could have been even cheaper really but lets just run with that. If the boots of springing and striding were +10' movement and +30 to your jump check for 5,500 I would have less problem with them. I would still only get them for a specific type of character but at least I would not feel that the money was wasted nearly as much as I would with that jump check only being +5. As a comparison, +30 to diplomacy would probably break the game into little bitty bits and then stomp on them laughing mercilessly. It would not be appropriate for 2,000 gp. I doubt it would even be appropriate for 200,000 gp for that matter. Ahh the beauty of a system that uses one cost for multiple things which are very, very different in their values.
Platstud 04-13-07, 03:46 PM	If your character is not making full attacks, the only advantages there are to wearing Boots of Speed instead of Expeditious Boots is a +1 Dodge bonus to AC (which may not provide any bonus if the character already has a Dodge bonus from its race, feats, class abilities etc.) Unlike other bonuses, Dodge bonuses to AC stack with each other.
Aracor 04-13-07, 03:59 PM	Scion, costs should always be determined by the DM for what they are worth. The prices in the back of the DMG are guidelines, and completely optional. The DM doesn't need to use and/or allow them at all. The problem is that you're basing the price on averages, possibly below-averages. All items should be priced based on worse-case scenario. In other words, base it on what the worst abuse you can think of would be, rather than the average character. Although frankly, almost any character I play would happily pay 18,000 gold for the ability to move at twice their normal speed. If you can't see the value in speed, I suppose that's your game.
Platstud 04-13-07, 04:25 PM	Although frankly, almost any character I play would happily pay 18,000 gold for the ability to move at twice their normal speed. If you can't see the value in speed, I suppose that's your game. :bump:
Lia Nightdemon 04-13-07, 05:22 PM	try and get you GM to rule you the 3.0 pair which are 2500 that grants +10 to jump and double speed
Jagyr Ebonwood 04-13-07, 05:33 PM	The Table for Estimating Magic Item Values is a guideline, not a rule. Aye. http://www.thehauntedgrounds.com/images/characters/barbossa.jpg