Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shadow_brian22 01-28-07, 07:41 PM	Why is it in DND combat two people just stand there and hit each other and dont really move, maybe dodging a little and ovoiding blows. But in movies and real life, combat takes place over a large area and the warriors move and jump over obstacles among other things, like for instance in Star Wars episode III, OB one (not sure on spelling) and Anakin fight over live a mile long area. got any tips to make battles more interesting?
Grod_The_Giant 01-28-07, 07:45 PM	because d&d is more heavy-armor style...and you get more attacks if you stand still.
Archangel62 01-28-07, 07:46 PM	It has to do with making full attacks and the areas of movement. The mechanics support the melee guys more or less being stationary with ranged and casters zpping around.
Jaxgaret 01-28-07, 07:52 PM	Why is it in DND combat two people just stand there and hit each other and dont really move, maybe dodging a little and ovoiding blows. But in movies and real life, combat takes place over a large area and the warriors move and jump over obstacles among other things, like for instance in Star Wars episode III, OB one (not sure on spelling) and Anakin fight over live a mile long area. got any tips to make battles more interesting? His name is Obi-Wan Kenobi. Also, in the mechanics of D&D combat, even if two characters are "standing still" (i.e. standing 5 feet apart and trading blows), there is still plenty of movement back and forth in the space that the two combatants occupy. They don't have to be standing in one spot the whole time. Not also that taking a 5 foot step, in D&D, does not preclude a full attack; the character may, themselves, take the equivalent of a 5 foot step out of and back into their 5' by 5' box during a full attack, increasing the area that the two combatants are fighting in to roughly about 15' by 10'. Take a look at a 15' by 10' rectangle on the ground, and you can see that there is lots of room to maneuver there. In that SW battle scene, there is lots of withdrawing and resetting of the fight. You can accomplish the same thing in D&D if you like, if you want a more cinematic feel to your battles. You'll probably need some houserules to do it, though.
HellflameArcanite 01-28-07, 07:54 PM	I was inspired when seeing Arthur and the Invisibles for the first time. Instead of having the players move, why not have the terrain move randomly? Slightly similar to the Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus, you can create a combat area that constantly shifts, or an unevenly elevated area for your players to fight on. Also, flying or highly agile opponents might drag combat out over a large area. As you brought up Star Wars III, why not make a scene similar to when Anakin and Obi-Wan were dueling while standing on droids over a river of lava? Create fast-moving platforms, possibly unstable rafts that require a balance check, and have them move down the river at varying speeds. I garuntee this will make your players appreciate the party's offensive spellcaster more than they do in a 20ft.x20ft. closed room with everyone at ground level.
Neutronium_Dragon 01-28-07, 07:58 PM	The mechanics presented in the Tome of Battle make for much more dynamic and mobile fights, especially with certain disciplines. If you're getting tired of "I full attack... I full attack again..." then it's worth picking up.
jaelis 01-28-07, 07:59 PM	If you really want to promote moving battles, you could tinker with the rules a bit. For instance, you could have a "fighting withdrawal" action, where you take an attack (maybe with a penalty) and then move away with no AoO. That would be favorable if your opponent had a better full attack than you, or if you could move to a more advantageous position (like having higher ground).
fatal error 01-28-07, 08:24 PM	The mechanics presented in the Tome of Battle make for much more dynamic and mobile fights, especially with certain disciplines. If you're getting tired of "I full attack... I full attack again..." then it's worth picking up. Yea, my group's combats are much more mobile with a Swordsage, a charging specialized Monk, and enemies who use maneuvers. Plus every has tumble maxed out, so AoOs are practically non-existent. Which brings up another half-solution; take away movement based AoOs. Of course, you'll still get people just standing there for Full Attacks, but at least the other options won't be deadly to them! Also, do your combats often involves terrain features? No reason to move if the ground over yonder isn't any different than the ground under thy own feet.
TheDarkLord 01-28-07, 08:34 PM	No offense meant, when I saw the title I instantly thought "Because your DM sucks", then I read the thread. It's not just the DM, your Party isn't being creative and your DM isn't using smart tactics against you. During 3-4 rounds of combat, usually, 1-2 of those rounds might allow for a full attack in my battles. Seriously, if you are standing around full attacking and then getting full attacked back, something is wrong. Why aren't monsters using spells, why arent they grappling, moving, or just swallowing you whole? Why aren't they using feats such as ride by attack and spring attack. Why stand still? Do you want to get hit with a twinned repeating fireball? Where are the readied actions and AoO's? Ack, I would finish this but I'm at work and apparently the production floor is falling apart, literally.
fatal error 01-28-07, 09:23 PM	Ack, I would finish this but I'm at work and apparently the production floor is falling apart, literally. Sounds like a good encounter to me. . .
Iver Gearsham 01-28-07, 10:11 PM	Have you ever had a BBEG who trapped his encounter room with devices that do things like toss the person who triggers it up or in a direction? The Idea is bbeg and minions knows the layout are good at jump and tumble run around shooting and attacking and getting bounced in and out of combat. and as you persue them you get tossed possably getting damaged from bad Skill rolls and put out of formation wizards seperated from meat shields clerics from everybody. Only monks and rogues having a chance but still getting thrown about. Isolating party members for attack. Also many fighters are reduced to 20 ft. of movement from fullplate armor you just are not getting any where in one or two rounds :raincloud. If Hasted 50 ft. of movement makes running around way more attrative.
Tyraxus 01-28-07, 10:28 PM	Whoever mentioned Swordsages is spot-on. With so much motion-oriented stuff in Desert Wind, and throwing-oriented in Setting Sun, not to mention the mobility maneuvers in Shadow Hand (50' dimension door as a swift action, anyone?), a Swordsage can quickly turn the standard "stand there and slug it out" D&D fights into something right out of a kung-fu movie. But then, that was the point of the Tome of Battle, wasn't it? To make melee combat fun and interesting again.
Zumarai 01-29-07, 08:29 AM	But then, that was the point of the Tome of Battle, wasn't it? To make melee combat fun and interesting again. While I agree that ToB is excellent, as long everyone has good rules knowledge, and is tactically creative combat is still interesting/exciting. Plus, as has been mentioned: Difficult terrain/environment etc.
Irving 01-29-07, 09:10 AM	I've yet to see a fight where people just stand toe-to-toe in my game... Part of it is that my table is trained to use that 5-foot step every single time, period. It's free. Why should you not use it? The other is that the table's trained to line up the flank attack as often as possible. +2 to hit should never be ignored, period. Someone's always maneuvering to give the other guy a flank attack. In a game with respectable terrain, you can always try to maneuver to get the higher ground as well. So there's a lot of opportunity to make D&D combat a battle of maneuver, if you recognize that there are very good reasons to move...
Draxo 01-29-07, 10:34 AM	in movies they make people move around because it 1, makes it look more dramatic 2, to get more camera shots 3, its 'cooler' Real combat doesnt have people running around stupidly and jumping around.
Some_call_me_Tim 01-29-07, 01:24 PM	in movies they make people move around because it 1, makes it look more dramatic 2, to get more camera shots 3, its 'cooler' Real combat doesnt have people running around stupidly and jumping around.It's true movies do it for dramatic flair. It might not be 100% realistic but that doesn't mean D&D can't have it's dramatic moments either. The big one is location, location, location. As other have mentioned, terrain can be a big influence on the fight. Battles in boring rooms lead to boring fights. In the movies it is interesting terrain that is often featured. A simple table in a room. Jump up on it (DC 10 Jump check) and you get a +1 to hit those below you, but how often does your DM bother with a table. The system as-is doesn't really reward mobility other than for flanking with rogues. Two tanks battling it out are better off just sitting there pounding away. This is where the DM can encourage dramatic flair by giving circumstance bonuses for doing something dramatic. For example, swinging from a chandelier (a staple of movie fights) could grant a +2 circumstance bonus to bullrush or overrun attempts against adjacent opponents. Having the fight take place next to the vat of acid or the river of lava makes bullrushing look like a viable alternative to pounding away with full attacks. The point is if there is nothing in the environment that gives the players an advantage they will likely not do anything dramatic. The other big killer of exciting fights is a DM who says, no. I remember one DM allowed my wife's character to chase after an enemy trying to escape on a horse, she ran after him, jumped onto the back of the horse, fought with enemy and threw him off all the while the pair were galloping down the road with the rest of party in pursuit. Good times! :dancin: :cheer: :w00t: She tried that with another DM, who said you can't do that, it isn't in the rules. :( The big difference was the first DM was willing to stretch the rules to allow something dramatic to happen, while preserving the balance of the game by calling for a jump check to jump onto the horse, a ride check to stay on, a trip attack to pull the enemy off. The second was just a stick-in-the-mud.
HellflameArcanite 01-29-07, 05:04 PM	I think that the general idea of these posts is: force your players to move around, either with the terrain or the nature of your enemies. If you have the DMG with you, look up Voidstone Field, and check out the creatures there. They bull rush their enemies into the voidstones. That is an example of creative combat - combat that is out of the box. You can also try to create moving terrain, such as how the voidstones move - or, as I brought up earlier, you can try to do something like the gears on Mechanus.
Tyraxus 01-29-07, 06:53 PM	in movies they make people move around because it 1, makes it look more dramatic 2, to get more camera shots 3, its 'cooler' Real combat doesnt have people running around stupidly and jumping around. Have you ever tried fencing, or swordfighting with foam/wood/blunted weapons? Let alone large group battles? There's quite a bit of mobility involved, it's a far cry from standing there swinging at someone. And God help you if there's a tree anywhere nearby, they make EXCELLENT cover :)
Vegepygmy 01-29-07, 07:04 PM	No offense meant, when I saw the title I instantly thought "Because your DM sucks", then I read the thread. It's not just the DM, your Party isn't being creative and your DM isn't using smart tactics against you.I had the exact same reaction. It's not D&D; it's you.
Nom 01-29-07, 08:03 PM	My PCs are continually moving about trying to set up flanking opportunities and gain clear lines of fire and cover while denying the same to the opponent. Frequent use of diagonal 5 ft. steps makes for a mobile battle even without any environmental influences.
planetouched 01-29-07, 11:22 PM	I think that it's the DM's responsibility to make it look "cool". Think, I roll to see if I hit. Apparently I do. Why? How? I cannot answer these questions, becuase its not my world. Bu when I DM however, Aha!, suddenly you dont "barly hit him", but "you feel your sword slide in between the joints of his amor, snagging a strap on the way, nearly foiling your attepmt, but a quick twist frees your blade and slides into his shoulder". Make stuff up. Better yet, know you're party's prefered weaponry, and make a long list of hit/miss animations for all of them. The most important thing is to reward criticals and massive damage. Especially crits though. You really only need one animation for this, and it becomes that characters signature move. PC1"Wow, I got a 20, nice" DM"You throw sparks all around you as your greatsword grinds against the stone ceiling. Your opponent attempts to but up his sword as a meager defense, but the force from your strike drives the flat of his blade down onto his face, breaking his neck, then cleaving his skull with your own blade." PC2"Dude, that was freaking awsome! Alright I hit with this. My SA dmage is 34" DM"You quietly circle your foe, looking for an opening, and he finally presents it. You rush in and make a quick insision, mearly a prick. He laughs at you until a red stream of blood jets from his hand." You get the point. My DM actually has me do those for his battles, but I cant take too much cinimatic licence with it, because it ma affect the story. Try that though, it should do the trick. And like the otheres said, moving stages are cool too, especially if you make reflex saves against those pesky branches that like to hang out at the same hight as the top of trains. EDIT:One thing I forgot; force them to move, constant change and destroy parts of the field. Lava is your freind here, its doubles as a hazard and an enviormental change.
TheDarkLord 01-29-07, 11:41 PM	Planetouched as the right Idea. I normally work one round out and get all the rolls to hits and all that taken care of if I can. I then describe what happened, why it happened and if anything special happens. Then we start on the second round.
planetouched 01-30-07, 01:58 PM	Planetouched as the right Idea. I normally work one round out and get all the rolls to hits and all that taken care of if I can. I then describe what happened, why it happened and if anything special happens. Then we start on the second round. I hate to be misquoted, that's not what I said. It does make for a nice flow of battle...for one round. I tried it that way once, and was soreley disapointed in the time it took, and it just felt kinda cheesey. Building one attack off the previous one when it's happening will give more of an intactive feeling for the PCs as opposed to a storybook style. But hey, to each one's own.
Ranger REG 01-30-07, 07:56 PM	Why is it in DND combat two people just stand there and hit each other and dont really move, maybe dodging a little and ovoiding blows. But in movies and real life, combat takes place over a large area and the warriors move and jump over obstacles among other things, like for instance in Star Wars episode III, OB one (not sure on spelling) and Anakin fight over live a mile long area. got any tips to make battles more interesting? Well, for one thing, the game is abstract so it does allow little leeway to describe combat in a creative fashion. Secondly, a human character occupying a 5-foot square doesn't literally mean his body filled up that area (though I know of some obese gamers that can). That's his fighting space. Also, the number of melee attacks allowed by a character doesn't literally mean he makes only those attacks. It means he has a chance to make one or more good hit on his opponent(s). Watch a scene from the Three Musketeers and count how many swings they make. So, if you want to make the game more exciting, describe how you're attacking without uttering any mechanical game term (AC, attack rolls, saving throw, etc.).
mato_hibiki 01-30-07, 08:36 PM	I've gotta agree with what's being said so far. If combat sucks, or D&D in general, it's your fault, be more creative. My group had that whole 'stand still and full attack' problem. We solved that by getting some broomsticks, and going up the cliff behind my house. I can promise you, after ten minute of having a three man free for all on a small mountain that has a eighty degree drop on one side, trees, rocks and brush with a single narrow path on another, a ninety degree cliff on the third side, and the last has a series of ten foot drops and switchback trails about a foot wide, you'll never have creative problems again. You may get killed, however. ... I'm kidding, nobody died. We got blisters, I nearly took a stab through the throat with enough force to dent a '77 chevy... On a side note, does anybody know how much extra ground you cover when leaping downhill? I need to houserule that, at least an extra ten feet on a jump... Seriously, go out and try this stuff. You will never again rely on standing still and wailing away once you realize that you can jump over a foe if you jump on that boulder behind you first. Just... Remember to keep it toned down, my friends each have six years of weapons based martial arts training, and I can walk a one inch wide rail for thirty feet with my hands in my pockets... I don't wanna have to explain to anyone's mother why their kid's leg looks like it's made outta rubber, and they have a metal hip now.