Bow or Composite Bow - That is the question? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bow or Composite Bow - That is the question? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
higgshr
07-23-06, 09:03 PM It appears that their is no benefit, beside costs (which is marginal in the case of the long/composite bow) in using the standard long or shortbow. No rate of fire, range, damage or strength benefits, nothing. What is in it for the regular bow? I thought there would be trade offs between the two but I cannot see any.

Is this meant to reflect primitive bows and the standard derigour are composites in standing forces. So much for the English Longbowman, or should I say to be correct English Composite Longbowman.

How can you not get a strength bonus for the longbow or even use a composite longbow mounted. Is this in errata? I cannot imagine Atilla hordes using a composite longbow mounted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longbow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_%28weapon%29
ShinAkuma2
07-23-06, 11:18 PM ...Nope, nothing immediately apparant.

The standard bows are beginner's equipment, useful until you can upgrade.
Norsesmithy
07-24-06, 12:29 AM Masterwork compound longbows can add strength dammage.

And you can use them mounted, My Pali gets lots of milage from his, even though he mainly uses a bastard sword and a lance.

A composite longbow is around 4 feet tip to tip, as opposed to around six feet, like a standard longbow. That accounts for the mounted/unmounted issue, phb illustrations are truly terrible.
Mentalmegabody
07-24-06, 01:37 AM Well... as you can see, the composite longbow's range increment is 10 ft. higher than that of normal longbows. This means that your maximum range is 1100 ft. which is 100 ft. more. If you add Distance and Farshot, and happen to be a 10th lvl Deepwood sniper (Masters of the Wild, page 52; +10 ft./level of Deepwood Sniper to the range increment of projectile weapons, added after all multipliers) your total range increment would be:
110 ft. x 1,5 x 2 + 100 ft. = 430 ft.
Making your maximum range (assuming you can see that far) a whopping 430 feet. If you're looking for the best range, use a heavy crossbow.
Making a choice between a crossbow and a longbow is a hard one.
If you have a fighter with a good strength modifier you should pick the composite longbow. If you are a rogue with low strength, but good dexterity,
go with the crossbow. The hardest part in making the choice would be the critical multipliers; 19-20/x2 or 20/x3. Well, it depends on your style of play and the rest of your party. Generally I like my rogues to deal critical more often so I pick keen rapiers and crosbows with keen bolts.
Warrior classes using swords (or some bludgeoning wpns) usually have 17-20/x2 with improved critical, keen or keen edge -spell. The bows are rarely used by those classes, and when using a composite bow they do nice damage
even on normal hits, but when that 19 or 20 (again, with keen arrows) comes up, it's party time.
Back to the differences between composite and regular bow.
I'll list some:
- Range increments (as noted before)
- Cost (especially with high STR mod.)
- Damage (normal+strength)
- Different Specific Magic Items (not a big thing, just consult your DM to see his opinion when making composite bows with regular bows specific abilities)
NOTE: Characters using composite longbows with STR mods higher than the character's STR mod suffer a significant penalty to attack rolls.

Similarities:
- Base damage
- Attack bonus (STR is not added to attack bonus)
- Elven craft melee options, quarter staff for longbows, club for shortbows
(Races of the Wild, p. 166)
- Same projectiles (arrows)
- STR penalty, but not bonus applies to the damage rolls made by both bows.
- Weight
- In all other aspects (such as feats) composites and regulars are concidered
the same types of weapons.

Unless I missed something, that's about it.

Why use a regular bow:
- Found a great one while crawling through a dungeon.
- Character has 10 or 11 strength
- Low on cash
- Rarely uses a bow
- Long way to town the nearest town
- Makes for a good firewood :D
- If you are too lazy to buy a new one
- The low cost almost makes them expendable if need be; fishing pole, whacking stick, and you can break it when you get mad. :D

Anything I missed? Feel free to correct me.
I should stop waking up early so I wouldn't write on these stupid forums.
Mentalmegabody
07-24-06, 01:58 AM I'll just put some interesting source books here. They have info on different types of bows and their uses in D&D.
- Races of the Wild (great book, new bows and arrows, and a lot new nature-related stuff)

- Masters of the Wild (like the last one, with nice prestige classes, feats and equipment)

- Arms and Equipment Guide (the obvious choice if you are looking for nice adventuring equipment)

- Complete Adventurer (some rogue-related classes, didn't like them that much myself, but I guess they are pretty good, and some new feats and equipment.

- Complete Warrior (If you are an archer and dislike the Arcane Archer (Dungeon Master's Guide) and Deepwood Sniper (Master's of the Wild)
you might be interested in the Order of the Bow Initiate (p. 68)

- Book of Exalted Deeds (For goodie-good archers, fighters and rogues. Oh and the new special materials. Serren - 4,000 gp/bow for a non-magical ghost touch-ability - bloody fantastic, if you ask me!

All those are nice books in addition to the basics (Player's Handbook I & II,
Dungeon Master's Guide I & II and Monster Manual I, II, III & IV (hehe... nah not seriously, sure it's nice to have em' all, but you need only the first one really, buy Fiend Folio, Dragonomicon, Libris Mortis or Lords of Madness (hehe... aberrations) instead)

My work here is done.
Xeviat-DM
07-24-06, 03:23 AM And, if you happen to have lower than a 10 strength, using a comp longbow will hurt your attack bonus because it requires a 10 strength to pull it.

On a side note, I have a varient I've been using and I'd like to see what everyone's thoughts are on it.

First, the Short Bow's name is changed to the Bow, and it is now a simple weapon. Reasoning: The bow, along with the spear and axe, was one of the earliest weapons ever made, so it should be simple.

the Longbow is still the longbow. Composite bows have a +10 range, and an additional +10 range for every +1 str bonus applied to it.

That's all.
Despana
07-24-06, 11:35 AM First, the Short Bow's name is changed to the Bow, and it is now a simple weapon. Reasoning: The bow, along with the spear and axe, was one of the earliest weapons ever made, so it should be simple.

Just because they are easy to design does not meant they are easy to use. Archers train for years (whereas a crossbow can be trained in a day or 2, which is why it is a simple weapon). In fact most of the easier to use weapons/devices/whatever were designed later because the easy to design weapons were hard to use.

Sorry, just that "logic" hit me in a special place. :P
ShinAkuma2
07-24-06, 12:42 PM And, if you happen to have lower than a 10 strength, using a comp longbow will hurt your attack bonus because it requires a 10 strength to pull it.

This is true of any bow, Composite or otherwise.
Rulebook
07-24-06, 12:53 PM yes, but you dont get a penalty TO HIT with the longbow for low strength, just to damage, whereas the compostie bow you get a -2 for not having the strength to shoot it, plus whatever penalty you get for low str.
ShinAkuma2
07-24-06, 03:05 PM Ah, I see. That's true.

If you've got a low Strength, you might be better off with a crossbow and Rapid Reload...but that's not really the point of this discussion, anyway.
Mentalmegabody
07-24-06, 03:33 PM 1 off-topic question...
There is a feat for crossbows only, (crossbow sniper, PHB II... if I remember correctly) why not make a similar feat for bow-users?
- Thinking for my ranger/deepwood sniper (the name sorta gives away the reason, why I asked)
Thane26425
07-24-06, 04:11 PM 1 off-topic question...
There is a feat for crossbows only, (crossbow sniper, PHB II... if I remember correctly) why not make a similar feat for bow-users?
- Thinking for my ranger/deepwood sniper (the name sorta gives away the reason, why I asked)

There are a couple of feats like rapid reloading. I think in the Arms and Equipment Guide there is a sort of telescopic sight for crossbows that reduces range incriments by two. It doesn't increase maximum range, just makes it easier to hit more distant targets.
Edymnion
07-24-06, 04:55 PM There is a feat for crossbows only, (crossbow sniper, PHB II... if I remember correctly) why not make a similar feat for bow-users?Because the point is that the crossbow is inferior to the even the basic bow. It has gotten more feats to give more options to make it more viable as a long term weapon. If you give the same benefits to bows, then you've done nothing but throw the crossbow back into the hole of only being useful for low level characters that only get one attack a around anyway.
Elthbert
07-24-06, 05:50 PM 1 off-topic question...
There is a feat for crossbows only, (crossbow sniper, PHB II... if I remember correctly) why not make a similar feat for bow-users?
- Thinking for my ranger/deepwood sniper (the name sorta gives away the reason, why I asked)

Well because bow users are already over powered as it is. And because the bow is inherently les accurate than the crossbow. Crossbows lend themselves much more to an accurate shot than does the bow. But I think the game balance issue is plenty of reason, it gives the crossbow viablity at levels beyond 6th, the bow does not need that.
Xeviat-DM
07-26-06, 09:13 PM Just because they are easy to design does not meant they are easy to use. Archers train for years (whereas a crossbow can be trained in a day or 2, which is why it is a simple weapon). In fact most of the easier to use weapons/devices/whatever were designed later because the easy to design weapons were hard to use.

Sorry, just that "logic" hit me in a special place. :P

Archers train for years to be skilled, not proficient. "Skilled" is a much different level of ability than proficient.

I took Archery in high school PE. It was the second time I had picked up a real bow in my life. I could hit the target quite easily at a distance of 10 yards; In D&D terms, a medium sized target has an AC of 5 and the fine target bullseye has an AC of 13. Apparently we should have been missing the entire target a good amount of the time, considering that the +4 bonus for aiming vs. a stationary target would counter the -4 nonproficiency penalty (and very few shots from the class missed their targets entirely).

I've fired crossbows before too. I'd say they're about as easy to use against stationary targets. Against moving targets, that's probably a different story, but a shortbow's range means it's designed for hunting and skirmishes.
Nom
07-26-06, 11:54 PM You forgot the -2 inanimate object modifier, which takes the AC of a medium sized inanimate object to 3. Now include the +5 "full round aim" modifier and you have a character with +0 BAB and +0 Dex having a +1 to-hit (+5 full round bonus, -4 nonproficiency penalty) against AC 3, which means they miss only on a natural 1. Which is roughly what you saw in your anecdotal experiment.
SlagMortar
07-27-06, 12:04 AM I'm not an expert on bow construction, but I believe the reason composite bows are better than regular bows in D&D is because composite bows are better than regular bows in real life.

Composite bow on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_bow)
Xeviat-DM
08-01-06, 09:55 PM You forgot the -2 inanimate object modifier, which takes the AC of a medium sized inanimate object to 3. Now include the +5 "full round aim" modifier and you have a character with +0 BAB and +0 Dex having a +1 to-hit (+5 full round bonus, -4 nonproficiency penalty) against AC 3, which means they miss only on a natural 1. Which is roughly what you saw in your anecdotal experiment.

Where is this "inanimate object modifier"? Inanimate objects have an effective Dex of 0, and thus a -5 penalty to AC, but I can't recall another -2 penalty ontop of that.
Xeviat-DM
08-01-06, 09:56 PM You forgot the -2 inanimate object modifier, which takes the AC of a medium sized inanimate object to 3. Now include the +5 "full round aim" modifier and you have a character with +0 BAB and +0 Dex having a +1 to-hit (+5 full round bonus, -4 nonproficiency penalty) against AC 3, which means they miss only on a natural 1. Which is roughly what you saw in your anecdotal experiment.

Where is this "inanimate object modifier"? Inanimate objects have an effective Dex of 0, and thus a -5 penalty to AC, but I can't recall another -2 penalty ontop of that.

And the bonus for aiming is +4.
Nom
08-01-06, 10:51 PM Chapter 9 - breaking and entering - smashing an object - armour class

SRD reference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#smashinganObject). +5 aiming bonus is there too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
higgshr 07-23-06, 09:03 PM	It appears that their is no benefit, beside costs (which is marginal in the case of the long/composite bow) in using the standard long or shortbow. No rate of fire, range, damage or strength benefits, nothing. What is in it for the regular bow? I thought there would be trade offs between the two but I cannot see any. Is this meant to reflect primitive bows and the standard derigour are composites in standing forces. So much for the English Longbowman, or should I say to be correct English Composite Longbowman. How can you not get a strength bonus for the longbow or even use a composite longbow mounted. Is this in errata? I cannot imagine Atilla hordes using a composite longbow mounted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longbow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_%28weapon%29
ShinAkuma2 07-23-06, 11:18 PM	...Nope, nothing immediately apparant. The standard bows are beginner's equipment, useful until you can upgrade.
Norsesmithy 07-24-06, 12:29 AM	Masterwork compound longbows can add strength dammage. And you can use them mounted, My Pali gets lots of milage from his, even though he mainly uses a bastard sword and a lance. A composite longbow is around 4 feet tip to tip, as opposed to around six feet, like a standard longbow. That accounts for the mounted/unmounted issue, phb illustrations are truly terrible.
Mentalmegabody 07-24-06, 01:37 AM	Well... as you can see, the composite longbow's range increment is 10 ft. higher than that of normal longbows. This means that your maximum range is 1100 ft. which is 100 ft. more. If you add Distance and Farshot, and happen to be a 10th lvl Deepwood sniper (Masters of the Wild, page 52; +10 ft./level of Deepwood Sniper to the range increment of projectile weapons, added after all multipliers) your total range increment would be: 110 ft. x 1,5 x 2 + 100 ft. = 430 ft. Making your maximum range (assuming you can see that far) a whopping 430 feet. If you're looking for the best range, use a heavy crossbow. Making a choice between a crossbow and a longbow is a hard one. If you have a fighter with a good strength modifier you should pick the composite longbow. If you are a rogue with low strength, but good dexterity, go with the crossbow. The hardest part in making the choice would be the critical multipliers; 19-20/x2 or 20/x3. Well, it depends on your style of play and the rest of your party. Generally I like my rogues to deal critical more often so I pick keen rapiers and crosbows with keen bolts. Warrior classes using swords (or some bludgeoning wpns) usually have 17-20/x2 with improved critical, keen or keen edge -spell. The bows are rarely used by those classes, and when using a composite bow they do nice damage even on normal hits, but when that 19 or 20 (again, with keen arrows) comes up, it's party time. Back to the differences between composite and regular bow. I'll list some: - Range increments (as noted before) - Cost (especially with high STR mod.) - Damage (normal+strength) - Different Specific Magic Items (not a big thing, just consult your DM to see his opinion when making composite bows with regular bows specific abilities) NOTE: Characters using composite longbows with STR mods higher than the character's STR mod suffer a significant penalty to attack rolls. Similarities: - Base damage - Attack bonus (STR is not added to attack bonus) - Elven craft melee options, quarter staff for longbows, club for shortbows (Races of the Wild, p. 166) - Same projectiles (arrows) - STR penalty, but not bonus applies to the damage rolls made by both bows. - Weight - In all other aspects (such as feats) composites and regulars are concidered the same types of weapons. Unless I missed something, that's about it. Why use a regular bow: - Found a great one while crawling through a dungeon. - Character has 10 or 11 strength - Low on cash - Rarely uses a bow - Long way to town the nearest town - Makes for a good firewood :D - If you are too lazy to buy a new one - The low cost almost makes them expendable if need be; fishing pole, whacking stick, and you can break it when you get mad. :D Anything I missed? Feel free to correct me. I should stop waking up early so I wouldn't write on these stupid forums.
Mentalmegabody 07-24-06, 01:58 AM	I'll just put some interesting source books here. They have info on different types of bows and their uses in D&D. - Races of the Wild (great book, new bows and arrows, and a lot new nature-related stuff) - Masters of the Wild (like the last one, with nice prestige classes, feats and equipment) - Arms and Equipment Guide (the obvious choice if you are looking for nice adventuring equipment) - Complete Adventurer (some rogue-related classes, didn't like them that much myself, but I guess they are pretty good, and some new feats and equipment. - Complete Warrior (If you are an archer and dislike the Arcane Archer (Dungeon Master's Guide) and Deepwood Sniper (Master's of the Wild) you might be interested in the Order of the Bow Initiate (p. 68) - Book of Exalted Deeds (For goodie-good archers, fighters and rogues. Oh and the new special materials. Serren - 4,000 gp/bow for a non-magical ghost touch-ability - bloody fantastic, if you ask me! All those are nice books in addition to the basics (Player's Handbook I & II, Dungeon Master's Guide I & II and Monster Manual I, II, III & IV (hehe... nah not seriously, sure it's nice to have em' all, but you need only the first one really, buy Fiend Folio, Dragonomicon, Libris Mortis or Lords of Madness (hehe... aberrations) instead) My work here is done.
Xeviat-DM 07-24-06, 03:23 AM	And, if you happen to have lower than a 10 strength, using a comp longbow will hurt your attack bonus because it requires a 10 strength to pull it. On a side note, I have a varient I've been using and I'd like to see what everyone's thoughts are on it. First, the Short Bow's name is changed to the Bow, and it is now a simple weapon. Reasoning: The bow, along with the spear and axe, was one of the earliest weapons ever made, so it should be simple. the Longbow is still the longbow. Composite bows have a +10 range, and an additional +10 range for every +1 str bonus applied to it. That's all.
Despana 07-24-06, 11:35 AM	First, the Short Bow's name is changed to the Bow, and it is now a simple weapon. Reasoning: The bow, along with the spear and axe, was one of the earliest weapons ever made, so it should be simple. Just because they are easy to design does not meant they are easy to use. Archers train for years (whereas a crossbow can be trained in a day or 2, which is why it is a simple weapon). In fact most of the easier to use weapons/devices/whatever were designed later because the easy to design weapons were hard to use. Sorry, just that "logic" hit me in a special place. :P
ShinAkuma2 07-24-06, 12:42 PM	And, if you happen to have lower than a 10 strength, using a comp longbow will hurt your attack bonus because it requires a 10 strength to pull it. This is true of any bow, Composite or otherwise.
Rulebook 07-24-06, 12:53 PM	yes, but you dont get a penalty TO HIT with the longbow for low strength, just to damage, whereas the compostie bow you get a -2 for not having the strength to shoot it, plus whatever penalty you get for low str.
ShinAkuma2 07-24-06, 03:05 PM	Ah, I see. That's true. If you've got a low Strength, you might be better off with a crossbow and Rapid Reload...but that's not really the point of this discussion, anyway.
Mentalmegabody 07-24-06, 03:33 PM	1 off-topic question... There is a feat for crossbows only, (crossbow sniper, PHB II... if I remember correctly) why not make a similar feat for bow-users? - Thinking for my ranger/deepwood sniper (the name sorta gives away the reason, why I asked)
Thane26425 07-24-06, 04:11 PM	1 off-topic question... There is a feat for crossbows only, (crossbow sniper, PHB II... if I remember correctly) why not make a similar feat for bow-users? - Thinking for my ranger/deepwood sniper (the name sorta gives away the reason, why I asked) There are a couple of feats like rapid reloading. I think in the Arms and Equipment Guide there is a sort of telescopic sight for crossbows that reduces range incriments by two. It doesn't increase maximum range, just makes it easier to hit more distant targets.
Edymnion 07-24-06, 04:55 PM	There is a feat for crossbows only, (crossbow sniper, PHB II... if I remember correctly) why not make a similar feat for bow-users?Because the point is that the crossbow is inferior to the even the basic bow. It has gotten more feats to give more options to make it more viable as a long term weapon. If you give the same benefits to bows, then you've done nothing but throw the crossbow back into the hole of only being useful for low level characters that only get one attack a around anyway.
Elthbert 07-24-06, 05:50 PM	1 off-topic question... There is a feat for crossbows only, (crossbow sniper, PHB II... if I remember correctly) why not make a similar feat for bow-users? - Thinking for my ranger/deepwood sniper (the name sorta gives away the reason, why I asked) Well because bow users are already over powered as it is. And because the bow is inherently les accurate than the crossbow. Crossbows lend themselves much more to an accurate shot than does the bow. But I think the game balance issue is plenty of reason, it gives the crossbow viablity at levels beyond 6th, the bow does not need that.
Xeviat-DM 07-26-06, 09:13 PM	Just because they are easy to design does not meant they are easy to use. Archers train for years (whereas a crossbow can be trained in a day or 2, which is why it is a simple weapon). In fact most of the easier to use weapons/devices/whatever were designed later because the easy to design weapons were hard to use. Sorry, just that "logic" hit me in a special place. :P Archers train for years to be skilled, not proficient. "Skilled" is a much different level of ability than proficient. I took Archery in high school PE. It was the second time I had picked up a real bow in my life. I could hit the target quite easily at a distance of 10 yards; In D&D terms, a medium sized target has an AC of 5 and the fine target bullseye has an AC of 13. Apparently we should have been missing the entire target a good amount of the time, considering that the +4 bonus for aiming vs. a stationary target would counter the -4 nonproficiency penalty (and very few shots from the class missed their targets entirely). I've fired crossbows before too. I'd say they're about as easy to use against stationary targets. Against moving targets, that's probably a different story, but a shortbow's range means it's designed for hunting and skirmishes.
Nom 07-26-06, 11:54 PM	You forgot the -2 inanimate object modifier, which takes the AC of a medium sized inanimate object to 3. Now include the +5 "full round aim" modifier and you have a character with +0 BAB and +0 Dex having a +1 to-hit (+5 full round bonus, -4 nonproficiency penalty) against AC 3, which means they miss only on a natural 1. Which is roughly what you saw in your anecdotal experiment.
SlagMortar 07-27-06, 12:04 AM	I'm not an expert on bow construction, but I believe the reason composite bows are better than regular bows in D&D is because composite bows are better than regular bows in real life. Composite bow on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_bow)
Xeviat-DM 08-01-06, 09:55 PM	You forgot the -2 inanimate object modifier, which takes the AC of a medium sized inanimate object to 3. Now include the +5 "full round aim" modifier and you have a character with +0 BAB and +0 Dex having a +1 to-hit (+5 full round bonus, -4 nonproficiency penalty) against AC 3, which means they miss only on a natural 1. Which is roughly what you saw in your anecdotal experiment. Where is this "inanimate object modifier"? Inanimate objects have an effective Dex of 0, and thus a -5 penalty to AC, but I can't recall another -2 penalty ontop of that.
Xeviat-DM 08-01-06, 09:56 PM	You forgot the -2 inanimate object modifier, which takes the AC of a medium sized inanimate object to 3. Now include the +5 "full round aim" modifier and you have a character with +0 BAB and +0 Dex having a +1 to-hit (+5 full round bonus, -4 nonproficiency penalty) against AC 3, which means they miss only on a natural 1. Which is roughly what you saw in your anecdotal experiment. Where is this "inanimate object modifier"? Inanimate objects have an effective Dex of 0, and thus a -5 penalty to AC, but I can't recall another -2 penalty ontop of that. And the bonus for aiming is +4.
Nom 08-01-06, 10:51 PM	Chapter 9 - breaking and entering - smashing an object - armour class SRD reference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#smashinganObject). +5 aiming bonus is there too.