Bow range with larger creatures? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bow range with larger creatures? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cepacia
01-29-07, 07:21 PM Hi all. How does the range of a bow change with size? I could only find how damage adjusts with size.
For example, a longbow made for a medium or small creature has a range of 100'. It doesn't make sense that the range would also be 100' for a giant using a longbow made for someone of his size. Thanks!
WinDReiN
01-29-07, 07:27 PM The range remains the same. Larger bows are for larger creatures, so that they don't take any penalties for using a too small or a too big weapon.
cepacia
01-29-07, 07:51 PM hmm, so a giant with a 40' move can throw a rock with a 120' range increment or shoot a bow with a 100' range increment? Guess that's why you don't see many giants with bows. Still doesn't seem quite right...
cepacia
01-29-07, 07:54 PM Ahh, I dusted off my old school v. 3.0 Arms and Equipment guide:

Increase by 25% for each size increment change.

Ahh, the memories of forgotten arms. Maybe my PCs shall encounter the orc shotput. the memories... he, he.
WinDReiN
01-29-07, 08:01 PM I don't know if that has changed in 3.5ed since in PH, p.112 --> Weapons, nothing of alike is mentioned...
tiercel
01-29-07, 08:38 PM As far as I know, by RAW there is no range adjustment for bows (or any other ranged weapon) due to size.

I think it would be eminently reasonable to houserule adjusting ranges based on size, otherwise pixies and storm giants can each throw a dagger the same distance, never mind that the storm giant's arm is probably longer than the standard dagger range increment (and a pixie's entire body is a small fraction of this size).

The obvious downside to this rule is that it would hurt Small-sized PC missile-users (more than just the reduced damage die), and there are already problems with size scaling in D&D anyway -- besides the simple physics of "scaling up" creatures shouldn't be able to work, in melee a 6'5 human with a greatsword has no reach advantage over a 2'7 halfling wielding a dagger.

You could compromise by saying something like, Small and Medium ranged attacks have normal range increments, Large and Huge have +50%, and Fine and Tiny have -50%. (Just keep in mind that this houserule would be an extra potential advantage for Large sized creatures when considering EL for encounters, or ECL for nonstandard PC races.)
risner
01-29-07, 08:55 PM hmm, so a giant with a 40' move can throw a rock with a 120' range increment or shoot a bow with a 100' range increment? Guess that's why you don't see many giants with bows. Still doesn't seem quite right...

They have the same range, but the Large bow sure does a heck of a lot more damage and most large creatures are going to have a big STR bonus also.
Jerks
01-29-07, 11:51 PM The arrows are proportionately larger, thus suffer more drag, and thus suffer the same range.

Just making that up. But for 3.5, there is no difference. You don't really need one though. Those huge bows are deadly enough as is.
Warlord_Draco
01-30-07, 12:06 AM a huge creature's crossbow is already basically a Balista...
draconic_swine
01-30-07, 10:21 AM I'm usually against scaling things for Large or larger creatures, mainly on the grounds that it adds yet another advantage for them and creates a disadvantage for Small PCs, but what tiercel suggested is a pretty good compromise. The only thing I'd change is make the difference +/- 25%, as per the A&EG ruling. +/- 50% seem a little excessive, to me.
Jerks
01-30-07, 10:39 AM So as not to penalize Halflings or empower large creatures you might consider having Small, Medium and Large characters have normal range, with steps above and below being modified by the range modifiers.
tarkin
01-30-07, 10:56 AM NON-PHYSICS ALERT, NON-PHYSICS ALERT

OK, so you think that if you are larger, you get more range? One of the example was rocks,

Go try it.

Pick up two rocks, one large, one small, and throw them as hard as you can.

Feeling silly?

OK, lets learn some basic physics. Larger items have smaller range They have bigger air resistance, and usually weigh more, both of which significantly decrease range.

The reason why sometimes people think that larger items go further is that larger throwing devices tend to be STRONGER, or used by stronger people.

Bigger bows go further because they have a higher draw strength - but that means the person pulling them has to be stronger.

If Pansy the Weakling draws a bigger bow, his range will NOT improve. But if Arnold the Governator takes a smaller bow that is made of a stiffer material capable of taking his strength, his range will improve, and be bigger than Pansy, no matter WHAT size bow Pansy uses.

If you want to make a House Rule that the stronger you are, the longer the range, go ahead.

Personally, I think it is unneccsarily complicated, but at least you won't have smart people laughing at you for thinking that bigger items go further.
Jerks
01-30-07, 11:31 AM Tarkin, I believe the Rock reference was comparing a giant's ability to throw rocks when compared to that same giant using a bow. Giant's have range increments of 120 ft to 180 ft depending upon type.

There is some merit to the thought that a bow designed to take advantage of a giant's superior ability to pull (not just Strength, but draw distance) should be reflected in the increased range of the bow.
risner
01-30-07, 12:37 PM One more thing:

That 120 ft Range Increment Rock has a max of 5x120 = 600 ft.
That 110 ft Range Increment Bow has a max of 10x110 = 1,100 ft.

PHB p114
frankthedm
01-30-07, 03:36 PM Storm giants use weapons and spell-like abilities instead of throwing rocks. Their composite longbows have a range increment of 180 feet. So is that a property of a huge bow, or a property of a storm giant?

Ballista 500gp 3d8 19-20x2 crit 120 ft. ranged inc.

A ballista is essentially a Huge heavy crossbow fixed in place. Its size makes it hard for most creatures to aim it. Thus, a Medium creature takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls when using a ballista, and a Small creature takes a -6 penalty. It takes a creature smaller than Large two full-round actions to reload the ballista after firing.
cepacia
01-31-07, 06:08 PM I think it is a property of the bow b/c I didn't see any Storm giant feats or abilities that would alter the range when I check the MM. The range is close to the range change specified in the AE&G (25% for each size change.) 110' for M x1.25=137.5. round up to the next 5'=140' for a large longbow. 140x1.25 for a huge longbow=175'. pretty close.

thanks all.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cepacia 01-29-07, 07:21 PM	Hi all. How does the range of a bow change with size? I could only find how damage adjusts with size. For example, a longbow made for a medium or small creature has a range of 100'. It doesn't make sense that the range would also be 100' for a giant using a longbow made for someone of his size. Thanks!
WinDReiN 01-29-07, 07:27 PM	The range remains the same. Larger bows are for larger creatures, so that they don't take any penalties for using a too small or a too big weapon.
cepacia 01-29-07, 07:51 PM	hmm, so a giant with a 40' move can throw a rock with a 120' range increment or shoot a bow with a 100' range increment? Guess that's why you don't see many giants with bows. Still doesn't seem quite right...
cepacia 01-29-07, 07:54 PM	Ahh, I dusted off my old school v. 3.0 Arms and Equipment guide: Increase by 25% for each size increment change. Ahh, the memories of forgotten arms. Maybe my PCs shall encounter the orc shotput. the memories... he, he.
WinDReiN 01-29-07, 08:01 PM	I don't know if that has changed in 3.5ed since in PH, p.112 --> Weapons, nothing of alike is mentioned...
tiercel 01-29-07, 08:38 PM	As far as I know, by RAW there is no range adjustment for bows (or any other ranged weapon) due to size. I think it would be eminently reasonable to houserule adjusting ranges based on size, otherwise pixies and storm giants can each throw a dagger the same distance, never mind that the storm giant's arm is probably longer than the standard dagger range increment (and a pixie's entire body is a small fraction of this size). The obvious downside to this rule is that it would hurt Small-sized PC missile-users (more than just the reduced damage die), and there are already problems with size scaling in D&D anyway -- besides the simple physics of "scaling up" creatures shouldn't be able to work, in melee a 6'5 human with a greatsword has no reach advantage over a 2'7 halfling wielding a dagger. You could compromise by saying something like, Small and Medium ranged attacks have normal range increments, Large and Huge have +50%, and Fine and Tiny have -50%. (Just keep in mind that this houserule would be an extra potential advantage for Large sized creatures when considering EL for encounters, or ECL for nonstandard PC races.)
risner 01-29-07, 08:55 PM	hmm, so a giant with a 40' move can throw a rock with a 120' range increment or shoot a bow with a 100' range increment? Guess that's why you don't see many giants with bows. Still doesn't seem quite right... They have the same range, but the Large bow sure does a heck of a lot more damage and most large creatures are going to have a big STR bonus also.
Jerks 01-29-07, 11:51 PM	The arrows are proportionately larger, thus suffer more drag, and thus suffer the same range. Just making that up. But for 3.5, there is no difference. You don't really need one though. Those huge bows are deadly enough as is.
Warlord_Draco 01-30-07, 12:06 AM	a huge creature's crossbow is already basically a Balista...
draconic_swine 01-30-07, 10:21 AM	I'm usually against scaling things for Large or larger creatures, mainly on the grounds that it adds yet another advantage for them and creates a disadvantage for Small PCs, but what tiercel suggested is a pretty good compromise. The only thing I'd change is make the difference +/- 25%, as per the A&EG ruling. +/- 50% seem a little excessive, to me.
Jerks 01-30-07, 10:39 AM	So as not to penalize Halflings or empower large creatures you might consider having Small, Medium and Large characters have normal range, with steps above and below being modified by the range modifiers.
tarkin 01-30-07, 10:56 AM	NON-PHYSICS ALERT, NON-PHYSICS ALERT OK, so you think that if you are larger, you get more range? One of the example was rocks, Go try it. Pick up two rocks, one large, one small, and throw them as hard as you can. Feeling silly? OK, lets learn some basic physics. Larger items have smaller range They have bigger air resistance, and usually weigh more, both of which significantly decrease range. The reason why sometimes people think that larger items go further is that larger throwing devices tend to be STRONGER, or used by stronger people. Bigger bows go further because they have a higher draw strength - but that means the person pulling them has to be stronger. If Pansy the Weakling draws a bigger bow, his range will NOT improve. But if Arnold the Governator takes a smaller bow that is made of a stiffer material capable of taking his strength, his range will improve, and be bigger than Pansy, no matter WHAT size bow Pansy uses. If you want to make a House Rule that the stronger you are, the longer the range, go ahead. Personally, I think it is unneccsarily complicated, but at least you won't have smart people laughing at you for thinking that bigger items go further.
Jerks 01-30-07, 11:31 AM	Tarkin, I believe the Rock reference was comparing a giant's ability to throw rocks when compared to that same giant using a bow. Giant's have range increments of 120 ft to 180 ft depending upon type. There is some merit to the thought that a bow designed to take advantage of a giant's superior ability to pull (not just Strength, but draw distance) should be reflected in the increased range of the bow.
risner 01-30-07, 12:37 PM	One more thing: That 120 ft Range Increment Rock has a max of 5x120 = 600 ft. That 110 ft Range Increment Bow has a max of 10x110 = 1,100 ft. PHB p114
frankthedm 01-30-07, 03:36 PM	Storm giants use weapons and spell-like abilities instead of throwing rocks. Their composite longbows have a range increment of 180 feet. So is that a property of a huge bow, or a property of a storm giant? Ballista 500gp 3d8 19-20x2 crit 120 ft. ranged inc. A ballista is essentially a Huge heavy crossbow fixed in place. Its size makes it hard for most creatures to aim it. Thus, a Medium creature takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls when using a ballista, and a Small creature takes a -6 penalty. It takes a creature smaller than Large two full-round actions to reload the ballista after firing.
cepacia 01-31-07, 06:08 PM	I think it is a property of the bow b/c I didn't see any Storm giant feats or abilities that would alter the range when I check the MM. The range is close to the range change specified in the AE&G (25% for each size change.) 110' for M x1.25=137.5. round up to the next 5'=140' for a large longbow. 140x1.25 for a huge longbow=175'. pretty close. thanks all.