Bows and AoO's [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bows and AoO's [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ArtOfZen
07-19-07, 08:36 AM prolly a noobish question but here goes:

I was just wondering what the circumstances are for ranged AoO's. How many squares (ft) are threatened by a character with a bow ready for the purposes of aoO? my guess was that its 30ft like point blank shot and whatnot, but that seems a little overpowered.

Thanks for the help in advance.
Inigo Carmine
07-19-07, 09:10 AM Barring prestige class abilities, special magic etc, ranged weapons do not threaten any squares.

You don't get to make AoOs unless you have something that explicitly tells you you can. Whatever it is that grants you this ability will tell you out to what range it works.
tarkin
07-19-07, 12:44 PM Quick lesson on melee combat, AoO's, and Flanking.

1. "One attack" does not mean "one" swing. It really means several FAKE OUT JABS, with one solid strike.

2. An AoO occures when

a. your opponent is not paying full attention to you.

b. so you take something you originally meant to be a fake-out jab and say "what the h3ll" and make it a solid strike.

3. If you are flanking someone, then you get your flanking bonus because you can time your real strikes to coincide EXACTLy with someone making a fake out jab on the exact opposite side. The reason you have the flanking benefit is the poor guy does not really know which one of you is doing a fake out and whihc one is doing a solid strike at you, so he must pay attention to both opposing sides at the same time.
ManinBlaq
07-19-07, 07:53 PM Quick lesson on melee combat, AoO's, and Flanking.

1. "One attack" does not mean "one" swing. It really means several FAKE OUT JABS, with one solid strike.

Completely off the OP's topic, but you bring up a point of what bother's me about Feinting.

A feint is just an attack that you never intended to land -- but make 'believable'.

So why does it take a standard action? And why does 'Improved Feint' take a move action?

Shouldn't a Feint simply be a special combat attack like Disarm, Trip and Grapple?
Salla
07-19-07, 07:57 PM Completely off the OP's topic, but you bring up a point of what bother's me about Feinting.

A feint is just an attack that you never intended to land -- but make 'believable'.

So why does it take a standard action? And why does 'Improved Feint' take a move action?

Shouldn't a Feint simply be a special combat attack like Disarm, Trip and Grapple?

Because it lets rogues drop Sneak Attack more easily, and would be nasty if they could do it on every single attack.
ShinAkuma2
07-19-07, 08:02 PM Quick lesson on melee combat, AoO's, and Flanking.

And what this all means is, while you can constantly jab and weave with a sword/axe/etc, you can't constantly fire arrows into every square that you can reach, which is what you'd need to do to threaten.
Ian0311
07-19-07, 08:24 PM Of course, if you have Improved Unarmed Strike and someone does something that provokes an AoO in your melee range, you can take an AoO on that person. However, your bow doesn't threaten anything unless it says so.
ManinBlaq
07-19-07, 09:29 PM Because it lets rogues drop Sneak Attack more easily, and would be nasty if they could do it on every single attack.

No that's called flanking.

And no, such a mechanism wouldn't allow a character to get sneak attack on every attack .. because it would require an attack to 'feint' in the first place. So potentially, at best -- that's every 'other' attack.
rkun
07-20-07, 02:40 AM this is just me but i would allow someone with "closecombat shot" to take an attack of oppertunity on someone who was within 5ft.

...yes i know that closecombat shot only says that you do not provoke AoO but again this is just me.
tarkin
07-20-07, 09:49 AM Besides the HUGE balance problem you just created by giving a Prestige Class away as an ADD ON to an existing feat, I have a Question:

How does the actions of someone else suddenly cause you to speed up and get an extra attack???

That makes ZERO sense.

As others stated, while melee combat consists of a series of quick jas with a single good strike. You are not 'speeding up' melee combat when you take an AoO, you are just trading a jab for a real attack.

Ranged combat on the other hand does not do this. It is instead a quick aim followed by you firing and then drawing another arrow.

If you have a BAB of 5, there is NO way the fact that your opponent is drinking a potion should suddenly cause you to do the entire process twice as fast.
Rolof
07-20-07, 03:50 PM I have to get ready for work, so I don't have the time to look it up in my books, but I think there is a 1st or 2nd level ranger spell called 'arrow mind' which allows you to AoO with a bow (only bow? not sure). If I remember correctly, it's only adjacent squares, just like a melee weapon. Anything else would be ridiculously overpowered, in my opinion.
TheRealOrion
07-20-07, 06:42 PM How does the actions of someone else suddenly cause you to speed up and get an extra attack???
First, you're all thinking far too literally. The real answer to most questions about combat is "because it creates balance." As long as you don't try to make it fit into a pre-conceived notion of what it "would be like" in a battle (which, let's be fair, none of us have the insight to really say), then the AofO mechanic works fine.

Second, the idea behind the AofO is that your opponent has taken their concentration off of the fight and is doing something else that leaves them vulnerable. It's not that you're any faster. It's that they effectively give up their ability to defend themselves and you see an opportunity for a split second. Thus, you quickly use whatever's in your hand and aim for the back of their head. This includes stuff like drinking a potion, which really would take your eye off of the fight, or having your focus split between two attackers in melee.
Garonak
07-21-07, 02:38 PM Just to get back on topic:
1: Unarmed Strike does not let you make an aoo when you're holding a bow, you still need to have a hand free to do that. Only monks can make unarmed attacks with other bodyparts than the hands.
2: Order of the Bow Initiate and Exotic Weapon Master both have class abilities that lets you use ranged weapons while threathened without provoking aoo.
3: Combine that with the Bayonets and Bowblades from Complete Scoundrel (atleast I think it's complete scoundrel) and you can get something quite nice.
4: Some dms allows aoos if the character has armor spikes. Personally I think that's rather daft, but hey, that's me.
strenoth
07-21-07, 03:21 PM Just to get back on topic:
1: Unarmed Strike does not let you make an aoo when you're holding a bow, you still need to have a hand free to do that. Only monks can make unarmed attacks with other bodyparts than the hands.

Incorrect, unarmed strike always includes the entire body. Monks get special abilities to enhance damage and such of unarmed strikes.
Dheran
07-21-07, 09:12 PM Just to get back on topic:
1: Unarmed Strike does not let you make an aoo when you're holding a bow, you still need to have a hand free to do that. You haven't been reading the rules very carefully.Unarmed Attacks

Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Attacks of Opportunity ... By the rules, you can trip someone with a head butt -- but not with a quarterstaff. ;)
ShinAkuma2
07-21-07, 11:28 PM By the rules, you can trip someone with a head butt...

Of course, I will have to do that next time I play.

It's like a Ric Flair chop block...but with the top of your skull.
guru7892
07-21-07, 11:48 PM . By the rules, you can trip someone with a head butt -

yeah they do it in soccer (football) all the time...
Molitor
07-22-07, 03:26 AM You can use a bow to make AoO in melee. It's treated as an improvised weapon so at a -4. PHB p.113.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ArtOfZen 07-19-07, 08:36 AM	prolly a noobish question but here goes: I was just wondering what the circumstances are for ranged AoO's. How many squares (ft) are threatened by a character with a bow ready for the purposes of aoO? my guess was that its 30ft like point blank shot and whatnot, but that seems a little overpowered. Thanks for the help in advance.
Inigo Carmine 07-19-07, 09:10 AM	Barring prestige class abilities, special magic etc, ranged weapons do not threaten any squares. You don't get to make AoOs unless you have something that explicitly tells you you can. Whatever it is that grants you this ability will tell you out to what range it works.
tarkin 07-19-07, 12:44 PM	Quick lesson on melee combat, AoO's, and Flanking. 1. "One attack" does not mean "one" swing. It really means several FAKE OUT JABS, with one solid strike. 2. An AoO occures when a. your opponent is not paying full attention to you. b. so you take something you originally meant to be a fake-out jab and say "what the h3ll" and make it a solid strike. 3. If you are flanking someone, then you get your flanking bonus because you can time your real strikes to coincide EXACTLy with someone making a fake out jab on the exact opposite side. The reason you have the flanking benefit is the poor guy does not really know which one of you is doing a fake out and whihc one is doing a solid strike at you, so he must pay attention to both opposing sides at the same time.
ManinBlaq 07-19-07, 07:53 PM	Quick lesson on melee combat, AoO's, and Flanking. 1. "One attack" does not mean "one" swing. It really means several FAKE OUT JABS, with one solid strike. Completely off the OP's topic, but you bring up a point of what bother's me about Feinting. A feint is just an attack that you never intended to land -- but make 'believable'. So why does it take a standard action? And why does 'Improved Feint' take a move action? Shouldn't a Feint simply be a special combat attack like Disarm, Trip and Grapple?
Salla 07-19-07, 07:57 PM	Completely off the OP's topic, but you bring up a point of what bother's me about Feinting. A feint is just an attack that you never intended to land -- but make 'believable'. So why does it take a standard action? And why does 'Improved Feint' take a move action? Shouldn't a Feint simply be a special combat attack like Disarm, Trip and Grapple? Because it lets rogues drop Sneak Attack more easily, and would be nasty if they could do it on every single attack.
ShinAkuma2 07-19-07, 08:02 PM	Quick lesson on melee combat, AoO's, and Flanking. And what this all means is, while you can constantly jab and weave with a sword/axe/etc, you can't constantly fire arrows into every square that you can reach, which is what you'd need to do to threaten.
Ian0311 07-19-07, 08:24 PM	Of course, if you have Improved Unarmed Strike and someone does something that provokes an AoO in your melee range, you can take an AoO on that person. However, your bow doesn't threaten anything unless it says so.
ManinBlaq 07-19-07, 09:29 PM	Because it lets rogues drop Sneak Attack more easily, and would be nasty if they could do it on every single attack. No that's called flanking. And no, such a mechanism wouldn't allow a character to get sneak attack on every attack .. because it would require an attack to 'feint' in the first place. So potentially, at best -- that's every 'other' attack.
rkun 07-20-07, 02:40 AM	this is just me but i would allow someone with "closecombat shot" to take an attack of oppertunity on someone who was within 5ft. ...yes i know that closecombat shot only says that you do not provoke AoO but again this is just me.
tarkin 07-20-07, 09:49 AM	Besides the HUGE balance problem you just created by giving a Prestige Class away as an ADD ON to an existing feat, I have a Question: How does the actions of someone else suddenly cause you to speed up and get an extra attack??? That makes ZERO sense. As others stated, while melee combat consists of a series of quick jas with a single good strike. You are not 'speeding up' melee combat when you take an AoO, you are just trading a jab for a real attack. Ranged combat on the other hand does not do this. It is instead a quick aim followed by you firing and then drawing another arrow. If you have a BAB of 5, there is NO way the fact that your opponent is drinking a potion should suddenly cause you to do the entire process twice as fast.
Rolof 07-20-07, 03:50 PM	I have to get ready for work, so I don't have the time to look it up in my books, but I think there is a 1st or 2nd level ranger spell called 'arrow mind' which allows you to AoO with a bow (only bow? not sure). If I remember correctly, it's only adjacent squares, just like a melee weapon. Anything else would be ridiculously overpowered, in my opinion.
TheRealOrion 07-20-07, 06:42 PM	How does the actions of someone else suddenly cause you to speed up and get an extra attack??? First, you're all thinking far too literally. The real answer to most questions about combat is "because it creates balance." As long as you don't try to make it fit into a pre-conceived notion of what it "would be like" in a battle (which, let's be fair, none of us have the insight to really say), then the AofO mechanic works fine. Second, the idea behind the AofO is that your opponent has taken their concentration off of the fight and is doing something else that leaves them vulnerable. It's not that you're any faster. It's that they effectively give up their ability to defend themselves and you see an opportunity for a split second. Thus, you quickly use whatever's in your hand and aim for the back of their head. This includes stuff like drinking a potion, which really would take your eye off of the fight, or having your focus split between two attackers in melee.
Garonak 07-21-07, 02:38 PM	Just to get back on topic: 1: Unarmed Strike does not let you make an aoo when you're holding a bow, you still need to have a hand free to do that. Only monks can make unarmed attacks with other bodyparts than the hands. 2: Order of the Bow Initiate and Exotic Weapon Master both have class abilities that lets you use ranged weapons while threathened without provoking aoo. 3: Combine that with the Bayonets and Bowblades from Complete Scoundrel (atleast I think it's complete scoundrel) and you can get something quite nice. 4: Some dms allows aoos if the character has armor spikes. Personally I think that's rather daft, but hey, that's me.
strenoth 07-21-07, 03:21 PM	Just to get back on topic: 1: Unarmed Strike does not let you make an aoo when you're holding a bow, you still need to have a hand free to do that. Only monks can make unarmed attacks with other bodyparts than the hands. Incorrect, unarmed strike always includes the entire body. Monks get special abilities to enhance damage and such of unarmed strikes.
Dheran 07-21-07, 09:12 PM	Just to get back on topic: 1: Unarmed Strike does not let you make an aoo when you're holding a bow, you still need to have a hand free to do that. You haven't been reading the rules very carefully.Unarmed Attacks Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following: Attacks of Opportunity ... By the rules, you can trip someone with a head butt -- but not with a quarterstaff. ;)
ShinAkuma2 07-21-07, 11:28 PM	By the rules, you can trip someone with a head butt... Of course, I will have to do that next time I play. It's like a Ric Flair chop block...but with the top of your skull.
guru7892 07-21-07, 11:48 PM	. By the rules, you can trip someone with a head butt - yeah they do it in soccer (football) all the time...
Molitor 07-22-07, 03:26 AM	You can use a bow to make AoO in melee. It's treated as an improvised weapon so at a -4. PHB p.113.