Bows [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Bows [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xaer
07-09-07, 11:16 PM A question that arose between DM's last night. Are bows any good past the midlevels? It seems that the only thing they can do well is at long distances and perfect visibility, and magic can emulate that starting with fireball.
Salla
07-09-07, 11:21 PM A question that arose between DM's last night. Are bows any good past the midlevels? It seems that the only thing they can do well is at long distances and perfect visibility, and magic can emulate that starting with fireball.

If you're a dedicated archer with the right gear, you can deal some decent damage. It also has the benefit of keeping you a lot safer because you're staying away from everybody else. :)
TheCobra
07-09-07, 11:25 PM A fighter with the right kind of magic bow is a significant threat to most opponents. I suggest splitting and force.
Lord_Zeb
07-10-07, 02:29 AM Composite Bow = STR bonus
Magic arrow + magic bow = bonuses stack
High BAB = multiple shots with iterative attacks as Full attack action as loading a bow is Free action

Yes, the bow is a good weapon, even at mid-levels. Even if a bit expensive to use then. ;)

If you are an elven archer with some spell access, you could try Elven Archer for PrC for cheap magic arrows and transfer your spells by arrows. Ranger also got some nice archery spells in some of the new books. You could also look into the Swordsage for some nice archery-related Shadow Hand maneuvers from the Tome of Battle, especially at higher levels.

Also remember that it might be an idea stocking Bane arrows. Bane is a cheaper usage as arrows than weapon, unless you relentlessly hunt your Bane target. Or rather, cheaper to buy a few Bane arrows than a Bane sword;).
BW0222
07-10-07, 03:22 AM Xaer,

It seems that the only thing they can do well is at long distances and perfect visibility, and magic can emulate that starting with fireball.

Magic can't emulate a bow.

First, Arrows are cheap. Spells are expensive. A 10th-level wizard might have say 10-12 spell slots with offensive spells -- rest of defensive or miscellaneous. Given four combats per day that is only 3-4 offensive spells available per combat, you can't blast out more than 3 offensive spells in a typical combat.

Second, spells don't actually to that much damage. Many spells have range issues, most have SR, damage reduction, elemental resistance, saving throws, etc. Include all these, and often arrows are dishing out nearly as much damage. In many cases, half your spells might be useless.

Assume that a 10th-level wizard had say charm person, magic missile (x2), ray of enfeeblement, web, melf's acid arrow, fireball (x2), stinking cloud, hold person, ice storm, and wall of fire available as spells. You then go up against a pair of efreeti (each CR 8) who decide to keep their distance (say 200').

The ice storm does say 25hp of damage. The magic missiles do 17hp of damage each and the melf's does 15hp of damage over three rounds. It is immune to the fire and the person spells. So you do 74hp of damage over 4 rounds.

Meanwhile a fighter with a +1 composite longbow (+3 strength enhancement) does 8d8+32 = 68hp of damage. Add shocking or something to the bow and average damage in four rounds is about 90hp.

Damage is about the same as a wizard can toss out using a bow even for an unoptimized archer -- add rapid shot, weapon specializations, a shocking frost bow, acid arrows, etc. and the archer dishes out far more damage.

Also, just to do 68hp of damage, the wizard has nearly completely drained herself of half her offensive spells. She can't even keep that pace up through two combats, let alone four per day which the CR system requires.

Now the wizard could use magical items, but most don't do much damage. A wand of lightning bolts only does 5d6 damage with a DC 14 save. Considering that the efeerti saves on a 4+, average damage is only 10hp of damage - in most cases, not even worth bothering about using.
TheCobra
07-10-07, 04:36 AM Magic can't emulate a bow.

Magic can create a bow. A pretty good one, in fact. Prismatic bow is the spell.
Leilond
07-10-07, 06:10 AM Magic arrow + magic bow = bonuses stack

Bonus with the same name do not stack
So if the bow and the arrow give both +1 enanchement bonus to hit roll and damage roll, they do not stack
Lord_Zeb
07-10-07, 07:16 AM Thought you were wrong, but you're right!

In 3.0 arrows and bows did stack their Enhancement bonuses, but in 3.5 they don't. Missed that change.

With two bonuses, only highest bonus is used.
But, effects do still stack, so a +1 Holy Bow shooting a +1 Flaming arrow hits with +1 bonus and with Holy and Fire damage.
JellyPooga
07-10-07, 07:54 AM But, effects do still stack, so a +1 Holy Bow shooting a +1 Flaming arrow hits with +1 bonus and with Holy and Fire damage.

and that's the beauty of using bows...Magic Arrows are fairly cheap, so carrying around 10 (increasing with level) Bane arrows for several types of foes can become very effective (e.g. 10 Dragon Bane Arrows, 10 Undead Bane arrows, etc.)...much more so than having a X Bane Bow. Similarly, having Frost Arrows and Flame arrows gives you more flexibility than just having a Flame Bow or a Frost Bow. If you have all your damage improving effects on your Arrows, you are free to have your Bow enchanted with more general things, like a higher enhancement bonus.
oracle71
07-10-07, 09:01 AM With a bow, you can also swith the weapon material, just by pulling out a different arrow. Fighting golems? Pull out the adamantine arrow. Fighting fey? Pull out the cold iron arrows. A +5 bow will give you all of the enhancement bonus you need, so you can customize the arrows fairly cheaply and be able to overcome essentially any DR.

And think of what a +5 Keen Holy Speed Mighty (+4) composite long bow can do with +1 Axiomatic Keen Ghost Touch Flaming Burst Thundering Bane arrows.
tvar1
07-10-07, 10:47 AM And think of what a +5 Keen Holy Speed Mighty (+4) composite long bow can do with +1 Axiomatic Keen Ghost Touch Flaming Burst Thundering Bane arrows.

Well, you put 2 Keens in there, but other than that you'll be owing Chaotic Evil incorporeal enemies with no fire and sonic resistance. ;)
mvincent
07-10-07, 12:43 PM think of what a +5 Keen Holy Speed Mighty (+4) composite long bow can do with +1 Axiomatic Keen Ghost Touch Flaming Burst Thundering Bane arrows.You can fit some more on there if you used Greater magic weapon (+5) on the bow and the flame arrow spell on the arrows.
bigsnarf
07-10-07, 12:45 PM Range! Move and shot, move and shot. You cant do this with a mellee weapon. And this can go with all levels, 1-20+.:embarrass
Irbian
07-10-07, 01:18 PM Where are splitting and force.???
Drewgimpy
07-10-07, 05:39 PM I am playing a 8/ranger 1/deepwood sniper right now and outdamaging everyone but the half-orc barbarian. I have a composite (+3 STR) bow of frost and just put transmutation on it (didn't know about splitting, should have done that I guess). But transmutation overcomes any and all damage reduction after the first round of combat which comes in very handy.
Empiro
07-10-07, 06:03 PM This brings me to another point: other than that one bow in Weapons of Legacy, are there any bows or properties that allow the bow to vary the strength bonus of the pull to match that of the wielder? It would be very convenient for anyone who gets a casting of bull's strength now and then.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xaer 07-09-07, 11:16 PM	A question that arose between DM's last night. Are bows any good past the midlevels? It seems that the only thing they can do well is at long distances and perfect visibility, and magic can emulate that starting with fireball.
Salla 07-09-07, 11:21 PM	A question that arose between DM's last night. Are bows any good past the midlevels? It seems that the only thing they can do well is at long distances and perfect visibility, and magic can emulate that starting with fireball. If you're a dedicated archer with the right gear, you can deal some decent damage. It also has the benefit of keeping you a lot safer because you're staying away from everybody else. :)
TheCobra 07-09-07, 11:25 PM	A fighter with the right kind of magic bow is a significant threat to most opponents. I suggest splitting and force.
Lord_Zeb 07-10-07, 02:29 AM	Composite Bow = STR bonus Magic arrow + magic bow = bonuses stack High BAB = multiple shots with iterative attacks as Full attack action as loading a bow is Free action Yes, the bow is a good weapon, even at mid-levels. Even if a bit expensive to use then. ;) If you are an elven archer with some spell access, you could try Elven Archer for PrC for cheap magic arrows and transfer your spells by arrows. Ranger also got some nice archery spells in some of the new books. You could also look into the Swordsage for some nice archery-related Shadow Hand maneuvers from the Tome of Battle, especially at higher levels. Also remember that it might be an idea stocking Bane arrows. Bane is a cheaper usage as arrows than weapon, unless you relentlessly hunt your Bane target. Or rather, cheaper to buy a few Bane arrows than a Bane sword;).
BW0222 07-10-07, 03:22 AM	Xaer, It seems that the only thing they can do well is at long distances and perfect visibility, and magic can emulate that starting with fireball. Magic can't emulate a bow. First, Arrows are cheap. Spells are expensive. A 10th-level wizard might have say 10-12 spell slots with offensive spells -- rest of defensive or miscellaneous. Given four combats per day that is only 3-4 offensive spells available per combat, you can't blast out more than 3 offensive spells in a typical combat. Second, spells don't actually to that much damage. Many spells have range issues, most have SR, damage reduction, elemental resistance, saving throws, etc. Include all these, and often arrows are dishing out nearly as much damage. In many cases, half your spells might be useless. Assume that a 10th-level wizard had say charm person, magic missile (x2), ray of enfeeblement, web, melf's acid arrow, fireball (x2), stinking cloud, hold person, ice storm, and wall of fire available as spells. You then go up against a pair of efreeti (each CR 8) who decide to keep their distance (say 200'). The ice storm does say 25hp of damage. The magic missiles do 17hp of damage each and the melf's does 15hp of damage over three rounds. It is immune to the fire and the person spells. So you do 74hp of damage over 4 rounds. Meanwhile a fighter with a +1 composite longbow (+3 strength enhancement) does 8d8+32 = 68hp of damage. Add shocking or something to the bow and average damage in four rounds is about 90hp. Damage is about the same as a wizard can toss out using a bow even for an unoptimized archer -- add rapid shot, weapon specializations, a shocking frost bow, acid arrows, etc. and the archer dishes out far more damage. Also, just to do 68hp of damage, the wizard has nearly completely drained herself of half her offensive spells. She can't even keep that pace up through two combats, let alone four per day which the CR system requires. Now the wizard could use magical items, but most don't do much damage. A wand of lightning bolts only does 5d6 damage with a DC 14 save. Considering that the efeerti saves on a 4+, average damage is only 10hp of damage - in most cases, not even worth bothering about using.
TheCobra 07-10-07, 04:36 AM	Magic can't emulate a bow. Magic can create a bow. A pretty good one, in fact. Prismatic bow is the spell.
Leilond 07-10-07, 06:10 AM	Magic arrow + magic bow = bonuses stack Bonus with the same name do not stack So if the bow and the arrow give both +1 enanchement bonus to hit roll and damage roll, they do not stack
Lord_Zeb 07-10-07, 07:16 AM	Thought you were wrong, but you're right! In 3.0 arrows and bows did stack their Enhancement bonuses, but in 3.5 they don't. Missed that change. With two bonuses, only highest bonus is used. But, effects do still stack, so a +1 Holy Bow shooting a +1 Flaming arrow hits with +1 bonus and with Holy and Fire damage.
JellyPooga 07-10-07, 07:54 AM	But, effects do still stack, so a +1 Holy Bow shooting a +1 Flaming arrow hits with +1 bonus and with Holy and Fire damage. and that's the beauty of using bows...Magic Arrows are fairly cheap, so carrying around 10 (increasing with level) Bane arrows for several types of foes can become very effective (e.g. 10 Dragon Bane Arrows, 10 Undead Bane arrows, etc.)...much more so than having a X Bane Bow. Similarly, having Frost Arrows and Flame arrows gives you more flexibility than just having a Flame Bow or a Frost Bow. If you have all your damage improving effects on your Arrows, you are free to have your Bow enchanted with more general things, like a higher enhancement bonus.
oracle71 07-10-07, 09:01 AM	With a bow, you can also swith the weapon material, just by pulling out a different arrow. Fighting golems? Pull out the adamantine arrow. Fighting fey? Pull out the cold iron arrows. A +5 bow will give you all of the enhancement bonus you need, so you can customize the arrows fairly cheaply and be able to overcome essentially any DR. And think of what a +5 Keen Holy Speed Mighty (+4) composite long bow can do with +1 Axiomatic Keen Ghost Touch Flaming Burst Thundering Bane arrows.
tvar1 07-10-07, 10:47 AM	And think of what a +5 Keen Holy Speed Mighty (+4) composite long bow can do with +1 Axiomatic Keen Ghost Touch Flaming Burst Thundering Bane arrows. Well, you put 2 Keens in there, but other than that you'll be owing Chaotic Evil incorporeal enemies with no fire and sonic resistance. ;)
mvincent 07-10-07, 12:43 PM	think of what a +5 Keen Holy Speed Mighty (+4) composite long bow can do with +1 Axiomatic Keen Ghost Touch Flaming Burst Thundering Bane arrows.You can fit some more on there if you used Greater magic weapon (+5) on the bow and the flame arrow spell on the arrows.
bigsnarf 07-10-07, 12:45 PM	Range! Move and shot, move and shot. You cant do this with a mellee weapon. And this can go with all levels, 1-20+.:embarrass
Irbian 07-10-07, 01:18 PM	Where are splitting and force.???
Drewgimpy 07-10-07, 05:39 PM	I am playing a 8/ranger 1/deepwood sniper right now and outdamaging everyone but the half-orc barbarian. I have a composite (+3 STR) bow of frost and just put transmutation on it (didn't know about splitting, should have done that I guess). But transmutation overcomes any and all damage reduction after the first round of combat which comes in very handy.
Empiro 07-10-07, 06:03 PM	This brings me to another point: other than that one bow in Weapons of Legacy, are there any bows or properties that allow the bow to vary the strength bonus of the pull to match that of the wielder? It would be very convenient for anyone who gets a casting of bull's strength now and then.