Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wonton2006 05-21-06, 11:49 PM	Well, here I was, pondering options for my rich Sorcerer to finally boost his abysmal AC. The other caster suggested Bracers of Armor. I thought about it, and pondered: are they worth it? After all, a mithral buckler has 0% Spell Failure chance, costs 1,015 gp, weighs 2 1/2 pounds, and keeps your hand free for other uses. Bracers of Armor +1 cost 1,000. Okay, so, SO FAR, it's cheaper. Now, we get to people with a little more money. +1 Mithral Buckler - 2,015 Bracers of Armor +2 - 4,000 The difference only gets worse from there. I do see some benefits from BoA, such as 1) Easy to conceal. 2) Applied to touch attacks (I think). 3) Applies to incorporeal attacks. 4) Always wearing 'em. The Races of the Wild book introduces the Thistledown Padded armor, Max Dex +10, ACP 0, ASF 0%. 705 gp. This stuff you can even conceal and sleep in. So, it comes down to this... are Bracers of Armor useless? EDIT: Rings of Deflection are bad, too. For the price of a +1, you can put two +1s on your Mithral Buckler and Thistledown Padded armor. Of course, you pay the extra base price, 1720. But, come on, that's double the AC bonus there.
Bulletproof_Condom 05-21-06, 11:53 PM	Bracers of armor are wonderfully useful for characters that cannot wear armor or a shield; i.e Monks.
Brol_The_Mighty 05-21-06, 11:53 PM	The best uses for braces of armor, isn't for the actual AC bonus. Its to add on extra special abilities (I think.) I mean, the AC bonus doesn't stack, but the effects of say Bracers of Armor with Heavy Fort, Shield with Greater Fire Resist, and Thistledown Armor with Greater Cold Resist.....well, u see my point.
Drachasor 05-21-06, 11:56 PM	Here's an odd thing though. Why exactly can you not enchant clothes with armor enhancement bonuses? Saying you can't is probably the most abritrary ruling I can think of (or one of them).* -Drachasor *Not in the sense of balance, not sure where it lies there, but in the sense of..well...making sense.
Bulletproof_Condom 05-21-06, 11:59 PM	You can, but you're not "enchanting clothing." You're creating an alternate version of the bracers of armor that take up the "vest" slot. This would require Craft Wondrous Item rather than Craft Arms and Armor.
Elthbert 05-22-06, 12:03 AM	Well the Buckler( hmmm we won't get into that on this thread) grants you a shield bonus not an armour bonus so the bracers of armour stack with the Buckler. And If Thistledown Padded armour is allowed in your campaign at all( which I would never allow) it should still require armour proficentcy to use --- which BoA do not. Of course there are the advantages which you already mentioned---- especially having your armour count agiants incorporeal attacks. Of course unless you have improved buckler defense you'll use the AC bonus from the buckler if you attack with that arm--- I would probably rule that included somatic componants to a spell( yeah I know thats not RAW but spell casters are already owerful enough they don't need any help). BoA do not require a feat to maintain their bonus while attacking. Rings of deflection also stack with both of the above and also are always on and do not lose their bonus when you attack.
Fireclave 05-22-06, 12:06 AM	The best uses for braces of armor, isn't for the actual AC bonus. Its to add on extra special abilities (I think.) I mean, the AC bonus doesn't stack, but the effects of say Bracers of Armor with Heavy Fort, Shield with Greater Fire Resist, and Thistledown Armor with Greater Cold Resist.....well, u see my point. By the RAW, you can't add armor enhancements to a pair of Bracers of Armor. The purpose of Bracers of Armor is to give a Armor Bonus to characters to can't wear armor, such as Monks, Wizards, and Sorcerers. They're not useless, they're just not as economical as regular armor enhancements. There is nothing stopping you from combining Bracers of Armor with a magiked up Mithral Buckler. That way you'd get both armor and shield bonuses to AC and no arcane spell failure chance.
Bulletproof_Condom 05-22-06, 12:09 AM	Also, if you're epic and you've got an obscenely high Dex (say 30+), you'll get a better total AC from bracers than you ever will from any actual armor because of the max Dex.
Gilfalas_Elaandrin 05-22-06, 12:23 AM	Bracers of armor give armor bonus' and are force effects. As such they do NOT count on your touch AC. The DO count against incorporeal attacks though. Additionally there is no real weight to them, no encumbrance or movement penalty. No skill needed to use, they are easily hidden under clothes and are darn easy to swim with while wearing. Also, you can sleep wearing bracers. No need to try to get your armor on if your rest is interupted. As for bucklers, put Animated on it. Does not take a hand at all that way. As for rings of Deflection they are great because they DO stack with all the rest (bonus type deflection) and they DO add to your touch ac (since they push attacks away before they contact you). OR Just commision a shirt, vest or robe of protection. Have it add the same bonus' as armor and you can add armor effects to them. Like a +5 Robe of Moderate Fortification. 5 Armor Bonus and 75% chance to make Crits and Sneak attacks normal. The bracers would allow you a higher AC (since they can go to 10 yes?) but the robe/shirt/vest would allow you to get the armor enhancements.
Kessalin Talira 05-22-06, 12:54 AM	By the RAW, you can't add armor enhancements to a pair of Bracers of Armor. The purpose of Bracers of Armor is to give a Armor Bonus to characters to can't wear armor, such as Monks, Wizards, and Sorcerers. They're not useless, they're just not as economical as regular armor enhancements. There is nothing stopping you from combining Bracers of Armor with a magiked up Mithral Buckler. That way you'd get both armor and shield bonuses to AC and no arcane spell failure chance.Arms & Equipment Guide, page 130, sidebar on the left. Barring an update that I haven't seen yet, that would be the most recent rule regarding adding armor enhancements to Bracers of Armor. Looks pretty RAW to me. On topic, Bracers of Armor really come into their own when, as has been mentioned, you get a high-level character that has a higher Dexterity modifier than even the lightest armor will allow. I think it's somewhere around a 28 (+9) that even Thistledown Padded won't even give you all of it.
GhostStepper 05-22-06, 02:15 AM	Its probably not applicable to the OP's character, but Embedded Quori shards are pretty nifty (Eberron Campaign Setting). An Ectoplasmic Armor shard costs 8k and gives you an encumbrance free +2 armor bonus to AC. Further more, the effect of multiple shards stack up to a total of 5 shards (+10 AC). So for 40,000 you can get your encumbrance free +10 armor bonus! And the kicker is it makes you look like a quori. Great for intimidating your opponents.
DarknessEternal 05-22-06, 10:08 AM	Bracers of armor are wonderfully useful for characters that cannot wear armor or a shield; i.e Monks. Wearing Bracers of Armor counts as wearing armor. It says so right in the description of the Bracers, hence, they are no good for Monks.
Keoki 05-22-06, 10:27 AM	If Thistledown Padded armour is allowed in your campaign at all( which I would never allow) it should still require armour proficentcy to use --- which BoA do not. Bucklers also "require" proficiency, but the only effect of not having it is that the check penalty applies to attacks. Since neither thistledown padded armor nor a masterwork buckler have check penalties, the proficiencies really aren't necessary.
Keoki 05-22-06, 10:38 AM	Wearing Bracers of Armor counts as wearing armor. It says so right in the description of the Bracers, hence, they are no good for Monks. Is this true? Here's the description of bracers of armor from the SRD (and, coincidentally, the DMG): These items appear to be wrist or arm guards. They surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective. I'd be very interested to know where you got your contrary information from. Was some errata posted about this, or is it elsewhere in the core books? Monks in my game love bracers of armor, so it we've been interpreting this rule incorrectly, please show us!
Esponer 05-22-06, 10:44 AM	I'd be very interested to know where you got your contrary information from. Was some errata posted about this, or is it elsewhere in the core books? Monks in my game love bracers of armor, so it we've been interpreting this rule incorrectly, please show us! DarknessEternal reads "just as though he were wearing armour" in some bizarre manner.
babysamurai 05-22-06, 11:03 AM	Wearing Bracers of Armor counts as wearing armor. It says so right in the description of the Bracers, hence, they are no good for Monks. Bracers of armour do not count as wearing armour - they are a woundrous item that grants an armour bonus to AC. Tell me - why else would all the example NPC monks in the DMG have bracers of armour?
runestar 05-22-06, 11:14 AM	Or in the very least, it was never the game designer's intention that they incur penalties as though wearing armour. ;)
Unsidhe 05-22-06, 12:25 PM	As mentioned earlier, the shield bonus stacks with armour bonuses. The cost of a +3 mithril buckler = 10,015g (+4 AC) The cost of a +1 mithril buckler and a set of bracers of armour +2 = 6,015g (+4 AC) To get a +5 AC bonus using the former = 17,015, and the later = 9,015... etc. Also, to enchant the bracers of armour with additional properties add another 50% to the cost of each added ability. The shieldhowever does have a bunch of nifty abilities that can be added at a pre-determined cost.
Harliquinn 05-22-06, 01:36 PM	As for bucklers, put Animated on it. Does not take a hand at all that way. This is true, however for a +2 equivalent modifier, be aware that A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency. A ring of Force Shield might be a better (but lower AC) choice for a caster.
Ezell Pike 05-22-06, 01:49 PM	This is true, however for a +2 equivalent modifier, be aware that A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency. A ring of Force Shield might be a better (but lower AC) choice for a caster. However you need to consider that a buckler has a 5% arcane spell failure and a -1 armor check penalty. A mithril buckler has a 0% arcane spell failure and 0 armor check penalty.
Sunblast 05-22-06, 02:16 PM	Why exactly can you not enchant clothes with armor enhancement bonuses? http://www.zestuff.com/product.php?productid=2&cat=4&page=1 Got some masterwork clothing?
Erak 05-22-06, 02:23 PM	If Bracers of Armor could not be worn by people who are not proficient with armor......or take penalties from armor.......it would have the same disclaimer as the Animated property does for shields: Animated: Upon command, an animated shield floats within 2 feet of the wielder, protecting her as if she were using it herself but freeing up both her hands. Only one shield can protect a character at a time. A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency.
tarkin 05-22-06, 02:53 PM	As others stated, you are not forced to either-or, instead you get both. Also, many players don't want the bracers cause they would rather cast Shield spell. You can get an AC of 6 by doing: Paying 26,000 for a +5 mithral bucker OR Buy Mithral Buckler, +2 enchanted (+1 base) = net +3 (5k) Buy Bracers of Armor +2 (4k) Buy +1 Ring of Deflection:(2k) Net cost = 11k and two extra 'slots'. 26k is much higher than 11. You pick which one you want.
Raven Dark 05-22-06, 03:26 PM	+1 Twilight Mithral Breatplate = +6 armor bonus for 8,350gp. +1 Twilight heavy Mithral Shield = +3 shield bonus for 5,170gp. +9 to AC, 0% arcane spell failure, and 0 armor check penalty is really dirt cheap (50,473gp less than bracers of armor +8!). Bracers are a waste of money for spellcasters. Blow it on learning new spells or increasing your spell DCs intead. At high levels when you have more money (which you will if you didn't waste gold on the bracers), you can potentially have +17 to AC with a +5 breastplate and a +5 shield. If you want to min/max your AC and start tanking, go ahead and throw in Rings of Protection, Amulets of Natural Armor, Luckstones, and other such things--although that can get pretty costly really fast. With just the stuff I've listed you can get a final AC of 38 + Dex modifier. :rolleyes:
mvincent 05-22-06, 03:28 PM	Wearing Bracers of Armor counts as wearing armor. It says so right in the description of the Bracers, hence, they are no good for Monks.That is incorrect. Most of the NPC monks published by WotC have bracers of armor (check out the DMG NPC's).
mvincent 05-22-06, 03:38 PM	are they worth it? After all, a mithral buckler has 0% Spell Failure chance, costs 1,015 gp, weighs 2 1/2 pounds, and keeps your hand free for other uses.As mentioned, it is a stacking thing: as you get higher in level you want as many stackable things as possible(i.e. bracers + mithral buckler is even better (cheaper per AC+) than buckler alone. That said, the mage armor spell (+4 armor bonus) is better/cheaper than bracers. The only reason to get bracers over that is if: a) You don't have access mage armor (i.e. a monk without a spellcasting ally to do this for him) b) You want to save one or two 1st level spell slots it takes for something else... but even then a couple pearls of power (1,000 gp each) would be cheaper than +4 bracers (16,000 gp) anyway.
Drachasor 05-22-06, 04:26 PM	So, my reading says you could wear bracers of armor +5 and a shirt +5 for a total AC bonus of +10, though it wouldn't work on touch attacks. They'd stack since the bracers give an armor bonus to AC and the shirt gives an armor enhancement bonus to AC, the same reason regular armor stacks with its enhancement bonus. Am I reading this right? Somewhere I thought it was said you couldn't enchange clothes....but I guess that's just a misconception. Generally isn't a +5 shirt much cheaper that +5 bracers? You'd only go with bracers if you wanted a base bonus that was higher than +5. -Drachasor
mvincent 05-22-06, 04:46 PM	So, my reading says you could wear bracers of armor +5 and a shirt +5 for a total AC bonus of +10, though it wouldn't work on touch attacks. They'd stack since the bracers give an armor bonus to AC and the shirt gives an armor enhancement bonus to AC, the same reason regular armor stacks with its enhancement bonus. Am I reading this right?No. Assuming you DM allows you to put armor enhancements on clothing (which I personally would definitely not allow as it affects balance and is not in the core rules), then the armor enhancement bonus enhances only the shirt's normal armor bonus (+0?) resulting in a regular armor bonus, just like any other armor. Example +3 leather armor or +4 padded armor would each give you a +5 armor bonus that does not stack with the bracers.
Clawhound 05-22-06, 05:00 PM	Layering is how you get a high AC on a budget. The rules are written such that many cheap items taking many slots are cheaper than single high-powered items taking up single slots. Any melee character should have: +Armor Bonus +Armor Enhancement Bonus (1,000gp) +Shield Bonus +Shield Enhancement Bonus (1,000gp) +Natural Armor Bonus (2000gp) +Deflection Bonus (2000) +Dodge Bonus (4000) Together, that's 10k gp. If you don't have an armor-wearing feat, Bracers of Armor make sense. If you have an insanely high dex, BoA's make sense. If you have severe encumbrance problems, they make sense.
GhostStepper 05-22-06, 05:25 PM	So, my reading says you could wear bracers of armor +5 and a shirt +5 for a total AC bonus of +10, though it wouldn't work on touch attacks. They'd stack since the bracers give an armor bonus to AC and the shirt gives an armor enhancement bonus to AC, the same reason regular armor stacks with its enhancement bonus. Am I reading this right? Somewhere I thought it was said you couldn't enchange clothes....but I guess that's just a misconception. Generally isn't a +5 shirt much cheaper that +5 bracers? You'd only go with bracers if you wanted a base bonus that was higher than +5. -Drachasor Even though i was ready to say that wouldnt stack, you bring up an excellent point. A breastplate's own "armor" bonus to AC stacks with its "armor enhacement" bonus. The bracers of armor are treated as giving an "armor" bonus to AC as if you were wearing armor while the shirt in question has a +5 "armor enhancement" bonus. Though i think it wasnt intended, and i would never allow it, you could argue that the AC bonus granted by bracers of armor would actually stack with the enhacement bonus of regular armor due to poor wording.
mvincent 05-22-06, 05:37 PM	+Dodge Bonus (4000)Where can you get this? Another favorite AC granting magic item is a Dusty rose Ioun Stone (5,000 gp, +1 insight bonus). If you have an insanely high dex, BoA's make sense.Yes. Assuming you can wear armor at all, you would likely want at least a 32 dex before preferring bracers over Celestial armor.
Merestil Haye 05-22-06, 06:58 PM	So, my reading says you could wear bracers of armor +5 and a shirt +5 for a total AC bonus of +10, though it wouldn't work on touch attacks. They'd stack since the bracers give an armor bonus to AC and the shirt gives an armor enhancement bonus to AC, the same reason regular armor stacks with its enhancement bonus. Am I reading this right?No, you are not. An armour enhancement bonus does not directly enhance a character's AC. Each protective item instead delivers a bonus to AC. An armour enhancement bonus enhances the armour bonus to AC that the item the enhancement is placed on delivers. If you wear bracers of AC +4, and your 16th level cleric friend casts Magic Vestment on your clothes (which he can do because the spell specifically allows it) the spell gives the clothing a +4 enhancement bonus to the armour bonus of the clothes (which the spell says is 0). Therefore the clothes now provide the wearer with a +4 armour bonus to AC. Since the bracers already provide the same bonus, you gain no benefit from the spell. Edit : Didn't see mvincent's post before drafting mine, sorry.
tiercel 05-22-06, 08:52 PM	Where can you get this? [dodge bonus]Actually, you can't. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items....of course, this is contradicted by haste. There may be other spells that break this rule as well, so any item that reproduces those spells' effects would presumably get you your dodge bonus. What should never be allowed is an item that grants you a +1 dodge bonus for X,000gp, because "Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses." You'd never buy a +2 or higher Dodge item, because it would be cheaper to buy multiple unslotted +1 Dodge items. As to the OP's point of whether bracers of armor are worth it... well... the cheap comparison, by time you can afford bracers of armor +4, is: bracers of armor +4: 16000 gp mage armor: two to three 1st level slots per day, or one 1st level slot per day + one to two pearls of power type I (if prepare spells)One benefit the bracers give you is that you won't lose your armor bonus if you are hit by a targetted dispel. If your DM allows the supplemental AND 3.0 rules of the Arms & Equipment guide, then you can use bracers to carry special armor abilities. Of course, as you have noted, between mithral bucklers and thistledown suits (or mithral twilight armor) one wonders why to mess about with the bracers at all, except as a matter of style (and, of course, incorporeal attacks... assuming you are hoarding your 1st level spell castings). Ceterum censeo katanam esse disputandum.
Xavon_Wrentaile 05-22-06, 09:01 PM	Well the first thing that springs to mind is that your sorcerer probably doesn't have shield proficiency. But that doesn't matter in this situation, because there are no penalties to apply. Indeed, as often said here, you would be best off stacking them all.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 05-22-06, 09:44 PM	You cna stack lots of cheap items for hiher AC then smoone you got the very best. But later when you already filled your slots you have to buy the better ones anyway... Robe of the Archmagi (75,000gp). Bracers of Armor +5 (36,000gp). Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000gp). Which one do you want? Bracers suck when you are a arcane caster and you have the gold to buy a robe of the archmagi.
Wonton2006 05-22-06, 10:23 PM	Wow, thanks, everyone. I didn't expect this thread to get this much coverage in just one day. I still like the idea of "+X Thistledown Padded Armour". +10 Max Dex, IIRC, 0 ACP, 0 ASF, can be easily concealed, can be slept in. What is this twilight enchantment I heard of? It sounds nice. And, yeah, stacking different types of items is best, usually. Also, as soon as he gets himself some decent magical Thistledown Padded, he'll switch out Mage Armor for Shield (alternate sorcerer with alternate switching out ruled).
Merestil Haye 05-22-06, 10:29 PM	What is this twilight enchantment I heard of? It sounds nice.Twilight is a +1 armour enhancement that reduces the ASF of the armour by 10%. Its in the Book of Exalted Deeds, and in a sidebar in PHB2.
tiercel 05-22-06, 10:57 PM	Twilight is a +1 armour enhancement that reduces the ASF of the armour by 10%. Its in the Book of Exalted Deeds, and in a sidebar in PHB2.Yeah, I groaned when I saw it was reprinted in PHB2. For a mere 5100gp, every wizard and sorcerer can have a +5 armor bonus on all the time that can even be slept in, with no penalty (-0 ACP, 0% ASF) -- and it only weighs 10 lbs. (And now it's "semi-Core" and can't be prevented merely by keeping BoED out of play.) *grumble* Stupid +1 twilight mithral chain shirts.... This reminds me of 3.0 familiars, when almost everyone took the toad; one of the guys in my group ran a campaign where toads had been driven to extinction in the wild and now only existed in expensive "toad farms" run by wizards' guilds, and were very pricey and much sought-after. With thus much demand for mithral (every wizard and sorcerer wanting to get their hands on some), you have wonder how long it will be before market forces cut in.... ...assuming you are actually trying to implement reasonable economics in D&D, when it might be both simpler and less painful to drop your entire collection of D&D books on your head repeatedly. Ceterum censeo katanam esse disputandum.
Merestil Haye 05-22-06, 11:05 PM	YThis reminds me of 3.0 familiars, when almost everyone took the toad; one of the guys in my group ran a campaign where toads had been driven to extinction in the wild and now only existed in expensive "toad farms" run by wizards' guilds, and were very pricey and much sought-after. :rofl: Great piece of campaign flavour.
ArcanaKnight 05-26-06, 04:18 AM	Layering is how you get a high AC on a budget. The rules are written such that many cheap items taking many slots are cheaper than single high-powered items taking up single slots. Any melee character should have: +Armor Bonus +Armor Enhancement Bonus (1,000gp) +Shield Bonus +Shield Enhancement Bonus (1,000gp) +Natural Armor Bonus (2000gp) +Deflection Bonus (2000) +Dodge Bonus (4000) The enhancement bonus increases the armor bonus that particular armor, it doesn't count as a seperate bonus and it doesn't stack with other "armor" bonuses. If you are wearing plain Fullplate armor (8 AC) and Bracers of Armor +4 your total armor bonus would be 8 because the highest "armor" bonus comes from the fullplate.
ManTimeForgot 05-26-06, 04:27 AM	The bonus type is "Armor." "Armor" bonuses do not stack. An enhancement bonus to armor increases an armor's armor bonus. It is not itself a type of increase. Enhancement bonus to armor =/= Enhancement armor bonus. MTF
Drachasor 05-26-06, 12:16 PM	The bonus type is "Armor." "Armor" bonuses do not stack. An enhancement bonus to armor increases an armor's armor bonus. It is not itself a type of increase. Enhancement bonus to armor =/= Enhancement armor bonus. MTF In general, magic armor protects the wearer to a greater extent than nonmagical armor. Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses). All magic armor is also masterwork armor, reducing armor check penalties by 1. In addition to an enhancement bonus, armor may have special abilities. Special abilities usually count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of an item, but do not improve AC. A suit of armor cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A suit of armor with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. It says they stack.
Merestil Haye 05-26-06, 01:53 PM	It says they stack.Actually they don't and for the reason ManTimeForgot explained. A suit of armour is a piece of equipment. One of its properties is that it gives an armour bonus to the wearer's AC. For example, full plate provides a +8 armour bonus to the wearer's AC. An enchanted suit of armour is one that has been given an enhancement bonus, and maybe other properties. That enhancement bonus is not - not ever - called "an enhancement bonus to armour class". It is called "an enhancement to the armour's armour bonus". That is, the enhancement increases the armour bonus of the armour, it does not increase the AC of the armour's wearer directly. Thus that same full plate, if given a +2 enhancement bonus, would provide a +10 armour bonus to AC. It is so recorded on the character sheet. It is this that allows the armour's enhancement bonus to stack with a shield's enhancement bonus to increase the wearer's AC. The two enhancement bonuses are not directly applying to the AC of the character; instead the enhancement bonuses are improving the separate bonuses to AC of a suit of armour and a shield. Your suggestion is that you can wear Bracers of Armour +5 and a Shirt +5 and obtain stacking bonuses to AC. The bonuses do not stack because the shirt does not provide an Enhancement bonus to AC, or an Armour Enhancement bonus to AC, but an Armour bonus, the same type as the Bracers provide. Incidentally, a shirt is in no wise a suit of armour, and cannot be enchanted as if it is. If you want to craft a Shirt +5, what you are doing is making Bracers of Armour in another body slot. The only way to enhance the armour bonus of a piece of ordinary clothing is to cast Magic Vestment on it; this works not because of the properties of the clothes, but because of the properties of the Magic Vestment spell, which explicity allows clothing to be enhanced in this way. The following quote from the FAQ makes this clear.I have a bard in my game who has a bit of money to spend. She buys a set of bracers of armor +3 and a suit of +3 leather armor. If the bard wears both at the same time, the armor bonus from the bracers (+3) overrides the armor bonus from the leather armor (+1). Our question is, does the +3 enhancement bonus from the armor still get applied for a total of +6, is it subsumed by the magic of the bracers, or is it just ignored completely? Since the enhancement bonus and armor bonus are different types of bonuses, the bard thinks her total Armor Class bonus should be +6. The magic leather armor’s +3 enhancement bonus applies to make the armor’s armor bonus bigger (+4 in this case). The example character uses only the larger armor bonus (+4) when wearing both the armor and the bracers. The overlapping +3 bonus from the bracers is still there, however. (It is just irrelevant most of the time.) If something bypasses the +4 bonus from the magic armor, the bracers might still prove effective. For example, an incorporeal touch attack bypasses the whole armor bonus from the magic armor. Since the bracers provide a force effect, they protect the bard against the incorporeal touch attack. The example character still has a +3 armor bonus against the incorporeal touch attack.Disregarding the fact that neither the questioner nor the Sage appears to know the AC bonus of leather, you can see that the procedure is as I have described; the enhancement does not increase the wearer's AC directly, but does so by increaseing the bonus to AC that the enhanced item already provides.
WolfHati 05-26-06, 01:58 PM	With regards to not making armored clothes: the robe of the archmagi has an armor bonus, and the robe takes up an armor slot, so making a robe of armor is more than reasonable.
Merestil Haye 05-26-06, 02:25 PM	With regards to not making armored clothes: the robe of the archmagi has an armor bonus, and the robe takes up an armor slot, so making a robe of armor is more than reasonable.making a Wondrous Item that provides an armour bonus is quite reasonable. The Robes, and the Bracers of Armour, are precedent for that. Taking a suit of clothes and calling them armour is not something the rules support, and you cannot use Craft Magic Arms and Armour to enhance their armour bonus to AC because they do not have one.
Drachasor 05-26-06, 03:16 PM	The following quote from the FAQ makes this clear.Disregarding the fact that neither the questioner nor the Sage appears to know the AC bonus of leather, you can see that the procedure is as I have described; the enhancement does not increase the wearer's AC directly, but does so by increaseing the bonus to AC that the enhanced item already provides. Thank you for the FAQ reference. I didn't know they covered it there. : ) -Drachasor
Drachasor 05-26-06, 03:17 PM	Taking a suit of clothes and calling them armour is not something the rules support, and you cannot use Craft Magic Arms and Armour to enhance their armour bonus to AC because they do not have one. Now that does seem a bit wonky to me. More than a little artificial...I don't suppose this is covered in the FAQ or anywhere else? -Drachasor
Gilfalas_Elaandrin 05-26-06, 03:31 PM	Looking over the thread my previous statements are incorrect. You could not combine a +5 Shirt and Bracers of Armor since they do both give armor bonus' and those do not stack. Although how anyone can look at a robe with a enhancement bonus to ac and then say you cannot enchant clothes for enhancement bonus' to AC is beyone me. Cloth is cloth is cloth. If the clothing is mastercrafted enough to enchant I see 0 reason to not allow it. Have it take the chest or shirt or armor slot. If you have a +5 vest/shirt/robe then that vest/shirt/robe gives you 5 armor AC with 0 restrictions in any other way. A robe is clothing. Clothing provides 0 Armor bonus on it's own. Clothing with a +5 Enhancement bonus is 5 Armor AC. Not like this is not within concept or a game breaker.
starfire311 05-26-06, 03:54 PM	Looking over the thread my previous statements are incorrect. You could not combine a +5 Shirt and Bracers of Armor since they do both give armor bonus' and those do not stack. Although how anyone can look at a robe with a enhancement bonus to ac and then say you cannot enchant clothes for enhancement bonus' to AC is beyone me. Cloth is cloth is cloth. If the clothing is mastercrafted enough to enchant I see 0 reason to not allow it. Have it take the chest or shirt or armor slot. If you have a +5 vest/shirt/robe then that vest/shirt/robe gives you 5 armor AC with 0 restrictions in any other way. A robe is clothing. Clothing provides 0 Armor bonus on it's own. Clothing with a +5 Enhancement bonus is 5 Armor AC. Not like this is not within concept or a game breaker. ACtually most people arent disagreeing with you... infact it has been stated that you can make a shirt with a +5 armor bonus, you just cant do it with craft arms and armor... it requires craft wonderous item, and you would just be crafting bracers of armor that take up a shirt slot instead.
Gilfalas_Elaandrin 05-26-06, 04:08 PM	Actually most people arent disagreeing with you... infact it has been stated that you can make a shirt with a +5 armor bonus, you just cant do it with craft arms and armor... it requires craft wonderous item, and you would just be crafting bracers of armor that take up a shirt slot instead. Well generally when I am wrong I like to acknowledge that fact. As for the robe/shirt, are we saying they too could have up to a +8 Armor bonus like the bracers can? I was viewing them as Armor with a base armor bonus of 0. But I can see where you would go as Bracers of Armor in a different slot. Also, would Brilliant Enegy weapons bypass such armors? If we are using the above definitions then the AC is a force effect and should stop them, yes? Another reason why they are usefull.
Drachasor 05-26-06, 05:56 PM	Well, cloth "armor" with an enhancement bonus would not stop energy weapons or touch attacks. It is also in a defense-associated slot. All that together leads me to think there is no problem with enchanted such things as armor. The Bracers scale much faster because they grant much better bonuses and are in an non-defense slot. That said, is there anything that really makes allowing this broken? I have a hard time even seeing how allowing them to stack with bracers of armor is broken. It is very expensive to get bracers of armor, and the monk is no super-powerhouse, for instance. Casters are overpowered by themselves, so I can see an arguement there, but the solution for casters is to weaker the higher-level spells and not to make odd rules regarding enchanting items.* -Drachasor *I guess you have to keep those odd rules in D&D regular until it is fixed (which will be 4th edition or later...some long time from now), but I am considering about how this might apply with something like Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, where the casters are much more balanced with other classes (casters are weakened at higher levels and other classes are more powerful).
Gilfalas_Elaandrin 05-26-06, 06:08 PM	That said, is there anything that really makes allowing this broken? Theoretically yes. The flaw of not wearing armor is (in a nutshell) the in ability to wear full plate. Which Bracers of armor allow (in essence) since they can go as high as +8 pre epic. So then the flaw of not being able to wear armor is the +5 enhancment on TOP of the 8 for full plate. So in theory if you could use a +5 shirt and stack it with +8 bracers, no one would ever have need to wear physical armor ever again. Great for the artificiers, but bad for game flavor. Basically if you assume that you enchant shirst, robes and vests as 'armor' then your limited to a +5 pre epic max but CAN add armor effects onto them. If ou assume they are enchanted as Wondrous Items you can go as high as +8 on them but cannot add armor effects to them. Either way the end result is undeniably an ARMOR bonus, which will never stack with other armor bonus'. And there should be some advantage to wearing actual armor for those classes that have the ability, even if that advantage at high level boils down to 5 AC and some armor powers.
Drachasor 05-26-06, 07:00 PM	Theoretically yes. The flaw of not wearing armor is (in a nutshell) the in ability to wear full plate. Which Bracers of armor allow (in essence) since they can go as high as +8 pre epic. Well I had two things I was bringing up. One was the subject you brought up, the other was just letting the enchantment of clothing happen. For the stacking issue, are you sure the huge investment of money doesn't balance that out? +8 bracers is crazy-expensive afterall. What are your thoughts on just allowing the enchantment of clothing? -Drachasor
Wonton2006 05-26-06, 10:36 PM	But, allowing items to be enchanted becomes brokenness galore, because you get +1 boots, +1 socks, +1 pants, +1 shirt, +1 tunic, +1 cloak, +1 headband, etc... Then again, it's your choice... USE all those magic item slots...
Bulletproof_Condom 05-26-06, 11:31 PM	Okay... if you enchant seventeen clothing items such that they have an armor bonus... then they all grant an armor bonus. Multiple armor bonuses don't stack. An enhancement bonus increases an armor's armor bonus, or a shield's shield bonus, but the item is still only granting one bonus. If you agree to treat a shirt as an armor with a +0 armor bonus, and you give it a +5 enhancement bonus, then you now have a shirt that grants a +5 armor bonus. This will not stack with actual armor, bracers of armor or any other sort of enhanced clothing item. Why? Because they are all granting an armor bonus. So if you're wearing two +1 socks, a +1 hat, a +1 shirt, a +1 pair of gloves, bracers of armor +1, a +1 belt, a +1 pair of sunglasses, and a +1 jock strap, then you have nine +1 armor bonuses to AC. With a Dex of 10 and no other items, this gives you an AC of 11.
Lotus Crane 05-27-06, 01:46 AM	Alright, it seems like the reason some people think bracers of armor and a "shirt of armor" should stack is because they believe that the bracers of armor are providing an armor bonus to AC, while the "shirt of armor" is providing an enhancement bonus to AC, which they believe stack. This is wrong for several reasons. 1) You can have an armor bonus to AC, and you can have an enhancement bonus to armor, but you cannot have a direct enhancement bonus to AC. "Enhancement bonus to AC" is not an actual type of recognized bonus. 2) The enhancement bonus to your armor bonus to AC, must be placed directly on the armor or item providing the original armor bonus to AC, not a separate item. So if you take bracers of armor +8, that's a magical item providing a +8 armor bonus to AC. If you try to use a shirt as "armor," it provides a +0 armor bonus to AC, until you enchant it. A +5 shirt would thus gain a +5 enhancement bonus to itself, but it would be providing a +5 amor bonus to AC to its wearer, and thus would not stack with bracers. In short, enhancement bonuses apply to the armor, and armor bonuses apply to characters, so you can't wear bracers and a magic shirt, and call one an armor bonus to AC and one an enhancement bonus to AC, or an enhancement bonus to the other item's armor bonus. But if you're asking about the entirely separate issue of whether it would be broken to simply allow clothing to be enchanted, but not actually stack with bracers of armor or the like, that's different. It really depends on what kind of item you plan to treat it as. If you plan to make it a wondrous item like bracers, except occupying the torso slot (shirts/vests), with the ability to provide up to a +8 armor bonus to AC, but not actually be able to get special armor properties like fortification, then theoretically it should be fine, since we're just talking about a different but still appropriate slot. If you plan to make magic clothing act like armor, in that it can only get up to a +5 enhancement bonus to armor, but gain special properties, it's potentially far less balanced, because if you want to treat it like armor for the purpose of benefits, you have to treat it like armor for the purpose of everything else. 1) You'd have to pay extra to make sure it's masterwork clothing. You'll notice you never really have to pay for the original bracer component of bracers of armor. 2) It would have to count as an actual piece of (probably light) armor, thus monks wouldn't be able to benefit from it. 3) You'd have to determine what, if any, maximum Dexterity bonus, armor check penalty, and arcane spell failure rate magic clothing has. Monks were deliberately designed to be unable to wear armor, gain an armor bonus to AC higher than +8, or benefit from special armor properties like fortification, and they were intended to spend more of their gold on bracers of armor than other classes normally would on their armor, because 1) monks add both Dex and Wis to their AC, which can actually total to more than any sort of armor bonus at higher levels, 2) monks theoretically shouldn't need to spend any of their gold on weapons, due to their usually adequate unarmed strikes.
ManTimeForgot 05-27-06, 02:04 AM	Beating a dead horse, Lotus. They've already admitted they were wrong. Sorry to rain on your parade, but half-way up the page or so the issue has been resolved and the thread has turned into a question of balance: "Would allowing them to stack be bad for the game?" MTF
ascensionblade 12-16-06, 02:57 PM	Should they be allowed to stack? No. I assume "+5 shirts" don't have ASF or AP or max dex's. You can't just let those in. It would upset balance.
starfire311 12-16-06, 03:32 PM	Should they be allowed to stack? No. I assume "+5 shirts" don't have ASF or AP or max dex's. You can't just let those in. It would upset balance. 1st off, wow, this si serious thread necromany And no as most people ahve come to the conclusion that a +5 shirt would not stack with bracers of armor or armor itselft, ifact a +5 shirt would function just like bracers of armor +5 just taking up the chest slot instead of the arm slot, adn it would be balanced IMO. Well generally when I am wrong I like to acknowledge that fact. As for the robe/shirt, are we saying they too could have up to a +8 Armor bonus like the bracers can? yes this is how I do it. I was viewing them as Armor with a base armor bonus of 0. I do not view it as armor as a base of 0, because then monks couldnt wear clothes. But I can see where you would go as Bracers of Armor in a different slot. this is how I view it Also, would Brilliant Enegy weapons bypass such armors? If we are using the above definitions then the AC is a force effect and should stop them, yes? Another reason why they are usefull. in my games, no BE would not bypass them, for the same reason they would not by passs bracers of armor.
Fallenangel359 12-16-06, 05:09 PM	remember, you can get the mithril buckler AND the bracers of armor, AND enchant your robe with various enchantments +5 mithril buckler, +8 bracers of armor, and soulfire robe thats way cheaper than a +13 mithril buckler, which is 1,690,000 gold, and that soulfire robe is a +4 enhancement, so 4x4*1000, or 16,000...
KurenaiYami 12-16-06, 05:31 PM	I do not view it as armor as a base of 0, because then monks couldnt wear clothes. Eww.
tiercel 12-16-06, 05:33 PM	Yeah, I'm not understanding the "+5 shirt" argument, since it doesn't stack with armor bonuses -- a "+5 shirt" is basically the same thing as bracers of armor +5, mechanically. If you don't want to just cast mage armor, your best bet is the (IMO stupid) aforementioned nonproficient use of mithral buckler + mithral twilight chain shirt. Both items have 0 ACP and 0% ASF. A mithral twilight chain shirt +1 costs a measly 5100gp, gives a +5 armor bonus, and can be further upgraded as well -- it doesn't have a major downside. There are a couple of minor ones -- it doesn't help against incorporeal touch attacks, and you are paying money to replace casting a first-level spell. On the other hand, incorporeal touch attacks are uncommon and you can just keep a scroll of mage armor around for when you do need it, and as for the cost, not only does the cost become fairly small even at the mid-levels, but you can upgrade your nonproficient armor as you get more powerful, whereas mage armor is pretty much just stuck at +4 AC (without taking a very specific PrC or utilizing a 3rd level spell variant). IMO the twilight enhancement is stupid because basically all wizards should become "armored wizards" at some point with that rule in the game -- it is also stupid to me because it is included in the PHB II in a sidebar in the duskblade section, as if it is helpful to duskblades. It really doesn't do anything for a duskblade -- what it really does is just allow every dang spellcaster to cast in armor at no penalty.
savant_warlord13 12-16-06, 07:54 PM	Also, if you're epic and you've got an obscenely high Dex (say 30+), you'll get a better total AC from bracers than you ever will from any actual armor because of the max Dex. you don't need to be epic for that.
savant_warlord13 12-16-06, 07:55 PM	Wearing Bracers of Armor counts as wearing armor. It says so right in the description of the Bracers, hence, they are no good for Monks. not true at all
Fallenangel359 12-16-06, 08:24 PM	30+ dex is easy... level 16... 18+4ap+2racial+6gloves of dexterity 30 dex, right there
strenoth 12-16-06, 09:07 PM	Even though i was ready to say that wouldnt stack, you bring up an excellent point. A breastplate's own "armor" bonus to AC stacks with its "armor enhacement" bonus. The bracers of armor are treated as giving an "armor" bonus to AC as if you were wearing armor while the shirt in question has a +5 "armor enhancement" bonus. Though i think it wasnt intended, and i would never allow it, you could argue that the AC bonus granted by bracers of armor would actually stack with the enhacement bonus of regular armor due to poor wording. Eh, not quite. Breastplate gives an Armor Bonus of +5 Breastplate +1 gives you an Armor Bonus of +6, not +5 armor & +1 armor enhancement the +1 enhances the Armor's bonus, which is then applied to your armor class.
Plothos 12-17-06, 12:46 AM	IMO the twilight enhancement is stupid because basically all wizards should become "armored wizards" at some point with that rule in the game -- it is also stupid to me because it is included in the PHB II in a sidebar in the duskblade section, as if it is helpful to duskblades. It really doesn't do anything for a duskblade -- what it really does is just allow every dang spellcaster to cast in armor at no penalty.Agreed. Splatbooks have a very unfortunate tendency to allow characters to eliminate every downside to their build. I guess the idea here is it'll motivate players to buy the books if they can find an official RAW item that lets their wizard wear a chain shirt. Never mind that it worsens the game. You bought the book. Some of the stuff in these books is interesting, but there's a lot of lameness too. That's my opinion, at any rate. :D
FeceMan 12-17-06, 01:03 AM	Well, here I was, pondering options for my rich Sorcerer to finally boost his abysmal AC. The other caster suggested Bracers of Armor. I thought about it, and pondered: are they worth it? After all, a mithral buckler has 0% Spell Failure chance, costs 1,015 gp, weighs 2 1/2 pounds, and keeps your hand free for other uses. Bracers of Armor +1 cost 1,000. Okay, so, SO FAR, it's cheaper. Now, we get to people with a little more money. +1 Mithral Buckler - 2,015 Bracers of Armor +2 - 4,000 The difference only gets worse from there. I do see some benefits from BoA, such as 1) Easy to conceal. 2) Applied to touch attacks (I think). 3) Applies to incorporeal attacks. 4) Always wearing 'em. The Races of the Wild book introduces the Thistledown Padded armor, Max Dex +10, ACP 0, ASF 0%. 705 gp. This stuff you can even conceal and sleep in. So, it comes down to this... are Bracers of Armor useless? EDIT: Rings of Deflection are bad, too. For the price of a +1, you can put two +1s on your Mithral Buckler and Thistledown Padded armor. Of course, you pay the extra base price, 1720. But, come on, that's double the AC bonus there. Bracers of armor provide an armor bonus. A shield provides a--guess what?--shield bonus. They stack. GG.
starfire311 12-17-06, 01:25 AM	remember, you can get the mithril buckler AND the bracers of armor, AND enchant your robe with various enchantments +5 mithril buckler, +8 bracers of armor, and soulfire robe thats way cheaper than a +13 mithril buckler, which is 1,690,000 gold, and that soulfire robe is a +4 enhancement, so 4x4*1000, or 16,000... um not sure what soulfire is, but if it is an armor enhancement, you can not put it into robes, by RAW, you must place on armor that has at least a +1 enhancement bonus. If it is not an armor enhancement than pardon my misunderstanding.
Fallenangel359 12-17-06, 01:54 AM	Thats not true at all... I can't quite qoute a source, but I know I've seen many examples, and thats also the way they do it in DDO... no enhancement bonus required for robes infact, the affinity for robes is "multiple abilities" if you look at the wonderous item chart
Nephlite 12-17-06, 12:50 PM	Alright, it seems like the reason some people think bracers of armor and a "shirt of armor" should stack is because they believe that the bracers of armor are providing an armor bonus to AC, while the "shirt of armor" is providing an enhancement bonus to AC, which they believe stack. This is wrong for several reasons. 1) You can have an armor bonus to AC, and you can have an enhancement bonus to armor, but you cannot have a direct enhancement bonus to AC. "Enhancement bonus to AC" is not an actual type of recognized bonus. Mr. Thicken Skin wants a word with you. He says he give a a +1 enhancement bonus to your Armor Class. I think he may be right. :D Thicken Skin Psychometabolism Level: Egoist 1, psychic warrior 1 Display: Material and olfactory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level Power Points: 1 Your skin or natural armor thickens and spreads across your body, providing a +1 enhancement bonus to your Armor Class. Augment: You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways. 1. For every 3 additional power points you spend, the enhancement bonus increases by 1. 2. If you spend 6 additional power points, you can manifest this power as a swift action.
runestar 12-17-06, 10:09 PM	Agreed. Splatbooks have a very unfortunate tendency to allow characters to eliminate every downside to their build. I guess the idea here is it'll motivate players to buy the books if they can find an official RAW item that lets their wizard wear a chain shirt. Never mind that it worsens the game. You bought the book. Nothing wrong with that - I have always been a little miffed about how clerics, psions and the new fangled casting classes are allowed to cast spells in armour. About time they gave the wizard similar treatment. Plus, technology is constantly improving. If someone creates a chain shirt which wizards can wear without drawbacks, why wouldn't everyone want one of it? Yes, every wizard would be scrambling to get one. It is to be expected. Nothing wrong with it, why do some dms make it sound like such a big, unfair deal?:confused: An analogy would be a cop in the police force who refuses to wear a kevlar vest for "roleplaying reasons"....:P