Post/Author/DateTime	Post
demon666fast 09-13-06, 08:03 PM	What if I don't want to craft a standard bracers of armor, but instead, a pair of bracers that let me cast mage armor once per day? at level 8 my mage armor lasts 8 hours. 1 x 8 x 1800 divided by(5 divided by uses per day)=2880 gp is it broken? why doesn't wotc just make better rules for crafting magic items, as Arcana Evolved did....:rolleyes:
Seerow 09-13-06, 08:05 PM	Because DMs are expected to use common sense and say "Haha, no."
demon666fast 09-13-06, 08:16 PM	Because DMs are expected to use common sense and say "Haha, no." Hmm ok. So there are some spells that just don't enter the table 7-33 in DMG? Which ones are they? That item was broken, but an item that let me cast mage armor twice per day, 4 hours duration each casting, which is much better than one casting of 8 hours, for a whole month, or even more because I won't be casting mage armor every day, for 3000 gp is not broken?
Seerow 09-13-06, 08:19 PM	Hmm ok. So there are some spells that just don't enter the table 7-33 in DMG? Which ones are they? Pretty much anything that gives an effect that's already covered by another item or item creation guideline in the DMG. For example, a spell that gave +6 Strength and some other effect for 1 round as a first level spell wouldn't be buyable as an always on item for 8,000 GP, even though the formula says it should be able to do that. Instead it would be 36,000 for the +6 strength, then an extra cost for whatever the added effect is.
Dalthbar 09-13-06, 08:27 PM	You need to price magic items by it's power - step one is to find a similarly priced item and go from there. The spell level formula should be the last one used. In addition to that, first level spells are notoriously overpowered when you make it into a magic item - so tread lightly.
Nezkrul 09-13-06, 08:44 PM	i want gloves that give permanent wraithstrike for only 12,000gps :D
demon666fast 09-13-06, 09:03 PM	i want gloves that give permanent wraithstrike for only 12,000gps :D I'm not a young and munchkin D&D player trying to break the game. I'm a serious roleplayer trying to understand the magic items issue better so I won't break the game when creating new custom magic items. And BTW, your gloves of permanent wraithstrike should cost 48,000 gp. ;)
Thelon Fairblade 09-13-06, 09:56 PM	IMC, I would allow "Mage Armor, 1/day" as a valid item. I would loook closely at the "caster level 8" issue, though -- the balance of an "x/day" item is limited use, and using an action to activate it. For example, "Shield, CL 1, X/day" is a common item IMC. Activate it, get +4 shield bonus to AC for 10 rounds. Perfectly balanced, IMHO, at 400gp per daily use. But "Detect Scrying, 1/day" is silly, with its duration of 24 hours... You might want to think about applying the duration-based multipliers in reverse to "daily use" items with long durations. Just as "rounds per level" is like x4 modifier for "always on", maybe "hours per level" is a x4 modifier for "charges per day".
Droken 09-13-06, 10:22 PM	Yeah I'm currently tampering into the custom magic item creation field as well. It seems any first level spell useable x times per day is incredibly cheap for their benefit. Continuous first level spells are just plain silly and broken. Fist of Stone, Shield, Lesser Vigor, True Strike... all incredibly powerful for a paltry sum of 360 per use per day.
Seerow 09-13-06, 10:28 PM	Y'know, I just thought of an easy way to fix it. X/day items are fine, so long as the duration is 10minutes/level or less. If you want it permanent, price it as if it had the Persist Spell metamagic applied. So your gloves of permanent wraithstrike? 7*13*2000=182,000 GP. Considering other things you can get at that price, it seems about right.
Xeviat-DM 09-13-06, 11:48 PM	I consider the magic item pricing guidelines to be well made, and in the situations where using spell pricing gets you an overpowered magic item I think that means the spell is overpowered. I mean come on now. I've never seen a wizard spend the cash on bracers of armor until they can afford +5s; sure, many have them, but that's because my NPCs often have them.
Seerow 09-13-06, 11:53 PM	I mean come on now. I've never seen a wizard spend the cash on bracers of armor until they can afford +5s; sure, many have them, but that's because my NPCs often have them. If that's the case why didn't they make their bracers of mage armor for 2800 GP, then sell those +4 bracers for 8,000 GP? Sounds like a lot of profit to be passing up.
utilitarian 09-14-06, 12:37 AM	Of course no one ever addresses the in game issue of creating wonderous items according to "value" rather than formulae. I don't know about you, but if i'm a wizard creating a wand, I'm generally going to expect that any level one wand costs me the same in materials to make, regardless of whether it's more "useful" or not. I'm going to be pretty confused when I attempt to apply the same principles towards magical items and find out that my Disguise Self circlet spontaniously costs more or less than my Comprehend Languages circlet because one is somehow "better" than the other. Sure I might SELL one of them for more based on the value of the item, but if i'm making two virtually identical items from two virtually identical spells (having the same level and duration), why should they come out differently? Y'know, maybe we just need to accept that some SPELLS are more useful than other spells! What a concept! Are we all up in arms saying that Mage Armor should cost TWO level one spell slots to memorize because it's better than (insert other 1hour/level 1st level spell here)? Yes Bracers of Mage Armor would be a good deal for the amount of money they cost, but if we ad hoc adjust the cost of every wonderous item based on our own opinions about the "usefulness" and "value" of the item, why even have a system to begin with? Any discussion on the subject beyond "did I calculate this right?" is moot because the outcome inevitably boils down to people who think the item needs to cost more or less because it's more or less powerful than it should be for the price, and people who think that the item is simply a really good idea and clearly worth making because of the exceptional usefulness for a low cost according to the standard table. We could just do away with the wonderous item table entirely and limit wonderous items to pre-generated ones in the DMG and whatnot, but that begs the question as to how Boots of Striding and Springing became part of the fabric of the magical universe. Note: I do not refer here to spells such as True Strike or Grave Strike which do not actually fit in the standard item creation rules due to special conditions within the spells. Attempting to exploit the delicate balance of these spells will be penalized by being taken outside and beaten with a Yak.
runestar 09-14-06, 12:38 AM	The point is that the pricing guidelines in the DMG are just that - guidelines to follow only when you run out of options. If an item closely resembles the item you are trying to craft, you are expected to follow the pricing method used for it. The guidelines are only as a last resort. That said, bracers of mage armour closely resemble bracers of armour, so priority would be given to the pricing formula used on bracers of armour, rather than the pricing guidelines of limited use wondrous items.:)
Grey_Mage 09-14-06, 12:52 AM	Ok then... lets try it in a different form then- Look, now Im making a wonderous item, know as the tablet of mage armor. I throw it on the ground before me and step on it, and it covers me in a shield of force that travels with me however I move. I really think that the guidelines in the DMG are there for a reason, not to abuse but to be creative. Sometimes that line gets crossed... and some times it needs to be. Besides, a bracer of or whatever of mage armor isnt as powerful as bracers of armor... but I agree that it more powerful than a +1 bracer.
runestar 09-14-06, 01:22 AM	I really think that the guidelines in the DMG are there for a reason, not to abuse but to be creative. Sometimes that line gets crossed... and some times it needs to be. The guidelines are there as a last resort, since the list of magic items in the DMG is far from exhaustive. Since a magic item letting you cast mage armour X/day is not represented in the DMG, you can only have 1 if your dm explicitly allows you to. And even then, he is free to revise the price accordingly if he feels that it is underpriced. You cannot say that just because there are provisions for you to craft said item, then the dm is obliged to allow you access to it. Generally, the guidelines will be balanced, though there are exceptions when items may turn out to be too cheap for their expected effect(just look at the cost of a wondrous item letting you cast cure light wounds at will);)
Nom 09-14-06, 03:08 AM	OK, so said item grants +4 AC for 8 hours for 2880, rather than a permanent item costing 16k. Of course, the permanent item is, well, permanent, so it doesn't care about inconveniences such as night combat, dispel magic, or other effects that can suddenly make that mage armour spell vanish.
risner 09-14-06, 10:58 AM	Hmm ok. So there are some spells that just don't enter the table 7-33 in DMG? Which ones are they? Any spell that is any of the following: 1) Duplicates an effect that is otherwise on the 7-33 chart. 2) Provides multiple effects from 7-33 (pay for each effect separately.) 3) Is similar in **Power** to another effect on 7-33. You only get to SL * CL * X,X00 * DurationMult if nothing else will work and nothing is similar in power.
risner 09-14-06, 11:00 AM	Continuous first level spells are just plain silly and broken Fist of Stone, Shield, Lesser Vigor, True Strike... all incredibly powerful for a paltry sum of 360 per use per day. They are not broken, since they don't cost 360 gp. If priced correctly, they are perfectly fine.
tarkin 09-14-06, 11:15 AM	It always amazes me that when people are given three methods of pricing things, they automatically assume the CHEAP one is the 'right and only way to do it'. As others stated, the item you called Bracers of Mage Armor cost 16,000 gp and is generally called Bracers of Armor. There is NO seperate item that duplicates the spell Mage Armor that has a seperate price. Items are based on the relative worth of the item, not what spell you happen to claim to use as a pre-req to making the item. Yes there is a forumula for basing the price on the spell, but other formulas over-ride that one because any one can see it is the worst, most unreliable method.
Xybot 09-14-06, 01:02 PM	It isnt the worst most unreliable method when you are making scrolls and wands is it? I really don't see why it has to be either... ;)
Darklion 09-14-06, 01:25 PM	Y'know, maybe we just need to accept that some SPELLS are more useful than other spells! What a concept!For what it's worth, Arcana Evolved took that approach -- at least with regards to magic items. The item creation system is a little more generalized (you don't have Craft Wand, you have Craft Charged Item; Craft Single-Use Item replaces Brew Potion, etc.). If a spell would be more advantageous as one type of item than another, they the description of the spell includes a field denoting the cost modifier. This balances the utility of the item in a particular form with what may otherwise be a too cheap (or too great) formulaic cost.
bondious 09-14-06, 01:38 PM	The OP doesn't want to make a continuous item that grants a +4 armor bonus, he wants a 1/day item that does it for 8 hours. So why don't we simply take the price of a Bracer of Armor +4, 16,000gp, and divide it by 3 (since he only wants 8 out of 24 hours per day of useage). With this we get 5,333.33333~, or simply round to 5,335. Would that be balanced for everyone?
risner 09-14-06, 02:10 PM	price of a Bracer of Armor +4, 16,000gp, and divide it by 3 (since he only wants 8 out of 24 hours per day of useage). With this we get 5,333.33333~, or simply round to 5,335. Not for me. Maybe /2. The chance that 8 hours would cover all conflict during any given 24 period is high. He would delay activating it until needed and would have it for 8 hours from that point. Force Shield Ring isn't 1/day, but can be activated/deactivated and provides +2 Shield AC for 8,500. So there isn't much of that level of power that costs less to base a price that is significantly less. I might allow 8,000 gp for a 1/day 8 hour Mage Armour, but I would have to think on it more than I have so far.
Chrono Nexus 09-14-06, 02:11 PM	Buy some scrolls. Or a wand. Biatches.;)
Tony Vargas 09-14-06, 05:07 PM	So why don't we simply take the price of a Bracer of Armor +4, 16,000gp, and divide it by 3 (since he only wants 8 out of 24 hours per day of useage). With this we get 5,333.33333~, or simply round to 5,335. That's not an entirely unfair aproximation. Since it's not 8hrs split up however you like, the chances are you will find yourself without it often enough to notice the limitation. However, that still doesn't take into account things like Dispel Magic. If you Dispel bracers of armor, they stop working for a few rounds. Dispel this, and it's just gone until the single daily use refreshes. OTOH, a 1/day Mage Armor item could be used to put the effect on someone else, or be used on yourself, then put away in your pack until the next day.....
Solik 09-14-06, 05:20 PM	Chrono Nexus hit it. Why's the item overpowered? You can get wands of mage armor cheap that last a long time. You can just get the party arcanist to use it on you before heading out and before the duration expires. Or anyone with ranks in UMD, since you can just keep rolling until you get it with a spell like this. Before comparing a potential new item to an existing overpriced item (bracers of armor) and calling foul, compare the item to potential alternatives that already exist (wands are a great place to start).
Juzzman 09-14-06, 10:22 PM	Chrono Nexus hit it. Why's the item overpowered? You can get wands of mage armor cheap that last a long time. Because wands are a finite resource, they run out and have to be replaced, and are priced accordingly. The proposed bracers will still be providing their function when a 100 wands and been used and discarded. But i do agree with you, since cost seems to be the issue here, why would the OP want to bother with an expensive 1pd permanent magic item that uses up a wrist slot when he can get a wand much more cheaply? Given the average campain, the op may only need to buy 2-3 wands to keep him going to a stage where he can afford/obtain bracers of armor +5 or better. And dont get me started on the number of clerics/druids that dont bother to lay in some wants of cure light. Juz
Seerow 09-14-06, 10:38 PM	Because wands are a finite resource, they run out and have to be replaced, and are priced accordingly. The proposed bracers will still be providing their function when a 100 wands and been used and discarded. Honestly, the wand argument pretty much swayed me. They may be a finite resource, but by the time you've used 50 charges of the wand, you've probably got high enough level to get a +6 Bracer (which would actually be worth the money)
gastropod 09-15-06, 12:14 AM	At first I thought it was a bargain, however I think it is acceptable for what it gives. A few people indicated that if you have the bracers that only cast the spell, it can be easily dispelled, and its use will be gone as opposed to the bracers of armor would only be suppressed for up to 4 rounds. Also, an area affect could possibly disable the spell as well as spells and effects on other members of the party. The Bracers of armor would have to specifically be targeted to be suppressed. Another thought, with only one casting, you are only covered for 8 hours of the day. If the DM that runs this game makes sure that encounters happen at all hours of the day rather than just between the scheduled work day, this method becomes inconvenient. Then consider the fact that you are using up the valuable slot on your body that could be used for something else, wands and scrolls do look a lot more enticing. I dont think any adjustments need to be made for the percieved bargain of this item and others that can be made from most 1st level spells. The True strike sword example, with a strict reading of the way the spell works, True strike gets cast as a standard action and then you get the bonus for your next attack roll. This sword would be good for someone that only wants a hit in every other round. Finally, the spells that have swift actions, I think would have to be carefully considered before being allowed. Many of them have cool short term effects which allow them to help get a PC out of trouble for 1 round. I think it is unreasonable to have a short sword of grave strike permanently cast on it, or a ring with the swirft version of expeditious retreat (double movement) for 2000 when boots of striding and springing cost 5500 and only allow an increase of movement of +10ft as well as the jump bonus.
The Simbul 09-15-06, 10:49 AM	What if I don't want to craft a standard bracers of armor, but instead, a pair of bracers that let me cast mage armor once per day? at level 8 my mage armor lasts 8 hours. 1 x 8 x 1800 divided by(5 divided by uses per day)=2880 gp is it broken? why doesn't wotc just make better rules for crafting magic items, as Arcana Evolved did....:rolleyes: Actually D&D has very balanced item creation rules, specifically the part which states that players inventing new magic items is a VARIANT RULE. The ONLY magic items that exist are the ones printed in gaming sources that the DM approves, and new magic items that the DM chooses to invent as treasure/rewards/etc. The item creation guidelines are in the Dungeon Master's Guide for a reason, and that reason is because magic items are the purview of the DM..
Thelon Fairblade 09-15-06, 11:27 AM	als, keep in mind that most wands are "built" at the minimum caster level. A Wand of Mage Armor costs only 750 gp for 50 charges... but the charges will last only 1 hour. Also, using a wand -- or an "x/day" item generally takes a standard action. Bracers of Armor are always on, even when you sleep, and "reset" themselves without an action if dispelled.
Optimator 09-15-06, 02:56 PM	If a magic item gives a numeric bonus (insight, enhancement, etc) you don't price it as if the spell were on continuously, but as a straight bonus. Like if you have an item with a continuous Bull's Strength, you would price it as an item that just adds a +4 enhancement bonus to strength. IIRC, of course. Isn't this how it is?
Scion of Coldshard 09-15-06, 03:06 PM	Bracers of armor are too expensive for what they do anyway. I think that bracers of armor should start out at +4 and only cost 2k and then scale up from there. Simply make them take up your bracer slot and armor slot at the same time. Two slots used, still fairly expensive, just about perfect. To look at it another way, if I was playing a mage I would much rather have 16 pearls of power 1 instead of the bracers +4. So much more that it is incredibly odd to think otherwise. With those I can have mage armor all day (doubled up if needed in case of dispels) plus give it to other party members plus have extra uses of other first level spells for myself and/or other casting party members.
starfire311 09-15-06, 04:02 PM	this item is clearly not balanced at 2880... let em stat a few reasons why 1) wand of caster level 8 mage armor costs 3000GP(1 x 8 x 375) 2) +4 Bracers of armor cost 16000GP 3) this item is slotless on top of it... he just needs to put it on and activate it then throw it in his bag until tomorrow and put on his Bracers of archery for the rest of the day.
gastropod 09-15-06, 04:20 PM	The wand at 3000 gp can cast as many times per day as the wielder desires. The bracers at 2880 can only cast once a day. If they want two times per day the cost goes up to 5760, and at five times a day would be 14400. This is an item that could indefinitely cast mage armor, but there are limitations. Even though it does not have to take up a slot all day long to be used, I still consider it a balanced item.
ravenshrike 09-17-06, 07:29 PM	It always amazes me that when people are given three methods of pricing things, they automatically assume the CHEAP one is the 'right and only way to do it'. As others stated, the item you called Bracers of Mage Armor cost 16,000 gp and is generally called Bracers of Armor. There is NO seperate item that duplicates the spell Mage Armor that has a seperate price. Items are based on the relative worth of the item, not what spell you happen to claim to use as a pre-req to making the item. Yes there is a forumula for basing the price on the spell, but other formulas over-ride that one because any one can see it is the worst, most unreliable method. But it doesn't duplicate it. If someone casts dispel on BoMA1/pd that has been activated the spell is done for the day. Casting dispel on any persistent magic item only cancels it out for at most a GRAND TOTAL of 4 rounds. Which is why the formula is perfectly fine.
ravenshrike 09-17-06, 07:31 PM	The OP doesn't want to make a continuous item that grants a +4 armor bonus, he wants a 1/day item that does it for 8 hours. So why don't we simply take the price of a Bracer of Armor +4, 16,000gp, and divide it by 3 (since he only wants 8 out of 24 hours per day of useage). With this we get 5,333.33333~, or simply round to 5,335. Would that be balanced for everyone? Only if you had dispel magic counter the effect for the normal 1d4 rounds. That is a BIG disadvantage to the 1/pd thing. How much does a level 8 pearl of power cost again?
risner 09-18-06, 01:55 AM	How much does a level 8 pearl of power cost again? 8*8*1,000
bondious 09-18-06, 01:55 PM	How much does a level 8 pearl of power cost again? It'll cost you 64,000gp, or as risner put it: 8*8*1,000 The thing is, though, that you don't need an 8th level Pearl of Power to recall a 1st level Mage Armor spell, regardless of the level of the caster...you just need a 1st level Pearl of Power, which costs a mere 1,000gp.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-18-06, 03:13 PM	The magic item guidelines, with the exception of the ability score and AC prices are laughably bad. Skills are insanely expensive, Feats are non-existant, duration modifiers are out of whack, affinity slots are just a stupid concept to start with. DMs should take the time and effort to appropriately price items, because WotC things wings of flying are woth 50 thousand gold.
gastropod 09-18-06, 04:26 PM	DMs should take the time and effort to appropriately price items, because WotC things wings of flying are woth 50 thousand gold. I don't know, if you look at fly, and you were to make a spell that was a 5th level caster for the 3rd level spell. The item has a command word effect based on a spell that has a 1 min/ level duration, you have the forumla of: 3 * 5 * 2000 * 2 = 60000 gp Sounds right in line to me. Especially since the item in the book is cheaper than this formula, and it has no time limit on how much it could be used during the day as opposed to this spell cast at a minimal level that would expire after 5 minutes.
Scion of Coldshard 09-18-06, 06:24 PM	hmm.. fly spell 3rd Caster level 10 Command word activated Cape slot 3*10*1800=54,000 which is exactly the price in the book. As it is not use activated nor continuous (going by the text and formulas) it doesnt get the 2x duration change. It also has the limitation of needing to be able to use the wings (by my reading of the item) which means that effects that would not normally end a fly spell will hinder/end the item. This should give it some sort of reduction in price, but it does not for some reason. Seeing as how about the earliest level one can afford one by the guidelines in the dmg is around 13th level I would have to say that the item is overpriced by about double what it is actually worth.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-18-06, 06:29 PM	However, the item is not actually worth that much. Edit: beat to it.