Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Zeb 02-01-06, 07:36 PM	Hi all, I thought of a new magic item that I'd like to get some community feedback on - especially on pricing. Bracers of Reach These bracers have chains coming out of them, which can attach to any one-handed weapon and fuse to that weapon upon command. The character gains +5' reach when attacking with the fused weapons, as the one handed weapon is thrown at targets nearby and instantly recoils back to the wielders grasp, allowing a full attack routine for a medium character: close - 10' - close - 10', or however desired. The character does not threaten with the new reach. Medium Transmutation, CL 9th, Mending, Telekinesis,Shrink Item Craft Wondrous Item Price 20,000 gp (one bracer) Thoughts? Yes, I have been playing "God of War" on my PS2 recently :) EDIT: Thanks for all the feedback so far!
MaverickWolf 02-01-06, 07:41 PM	OK, I'm not sure on balance, but you, sir, are awesome...Now I will await the opinions of others on balance....My only question is this: Why can't they fuse to light weapons?
Lord Zeb 02-01-06, 08:07 PM	OK, I'm not sure on balance, but you, sir, are awesome...Now I will await the opinions of others on balance....My only question is this: Why can't they fuse to light weapons? Thanks :D Well, maybe that should read "any weapon wielded in one hand" (so light or whatever works) --- since "one-handed weapon" is an actual category.
solomani 02-01-06, 11:06 PM	Great. Was going to make something similiar after playing GoW as well.
Jaeron Dalur 02-02-06, 01:39 AM	Does this make the character's reach longer or does it make the weapon's reach longer? By the reading it works like it makes the character's reach longer (as you can still use it close) but it would be nice if it was explicitly specified.
KmartKommando 02-02-06, 01:50 AM	It sounds like the weapon flies out anime style on chains to strike at range. :rolleyes:
solomani 02-02-06, 05:04 AM	It sounds like the weapon flies out anime style on chains to strike at range. :rolleyes: Anime? Hardly since the weapons are based on an American game. I am not the original writer but since I played the game in question the weapon would have reach. Personally I would just make them minor-artefacts and have the bracer, chain and sword as one weapon/piece. For further balance I would make the swords short only. Maybe broad bladed ones.
MaverickWolf 02-02-06, 08:01 AM	Anime? Hardly since the weapons are based on an American game. I am not the original writer but since I played the game in question the weapon would have reach. Personally I would just make them minor-artefacts and have the bracer, chain and sword as one weapon/piece. For further balance I would make the swords short only. Maybe broad bladed ones. That would work if he were trying to re-create the Blades of Chaos exactly. As a matter of fact, it's already done for you in an issue of Dragon (I think 328, but don't hold me to that). However, he's just trying to make something to mimic it a bit, because it's rather cool. I could, however, see requiring a feat to use it properly. ((I could also see making multiple versions of it, with higher prices have more reach. But the price increase would have to be exponential, as the usefulness is. For example, 15 ft would be around 55,000 and 20 ft would be somewhere around 100,000 at least based on current pricing.))
Lord Zeb 02-02-06, 08:39 AM	That would work if he were trying to re-create the Blades of Chaos exactly. As a matter of fact, it's already done for you in an issue of Dragon (I think 328, but don't hold me to that). However, he's just trying to make something to mimic it a bit, because it's rather cool. I could, however, see requiring a feat to use it properly. ((I could also see making multiple versions of it, with higher prices have more reach. But the price increase would have to be exponential, as the usefulness is. For example, 15 ft would be around 55,000 and 20 ft would be somewhere around 100,000 at least based on current pricing.)) Exactly- I'd like to use some of the flavor & style, but not port over the Anarch Razors exactly. Does this make the character's reach longer or does it make the weapon's reach longer? By the reading it works like it makes the character's reach longer (as you can still use it close) but it would be nice if it was explicitly specified. This would extend the reach of the weapon out to 10', but also be usable up close.
Deviston 02-02-06, 03:33 PM	Is 10 foot reach really worth that much?
tarkin 02-02-06, 03:55 PM	Yes. Definitely. It is not just 10ft reach. It has 10 ft reach and 5ft reach, like a spiked chain. and It stacks with both a reach weapon, and with your being enlarged. So if you have a spiked chain, drink a potion of Enlarge Person, and wield this weapon, you have reach of 30ft.
masterofmayhem 02-02-06, 03:57 PM	Is 10 foot reach really worth that much? That depends. Does the item in question give you reach when you attack with it? Or does it allow you to threaten ten feet out? The description of the item seems evincive of the former, but I doubt most people would interpret it that way. Bracers of Reach These bracers have chains coming out of them, which can attach to any one-handed weapon and fuse to that weapon upon command. The character now has 10' reach with the fused weapons, as the one handed weapon is thrown at targets nearby and instantly recoils back to the wielders grasp, allowing a full attack routine of close - 10' - close - 10', or however desired. Medium Transmutation, CL 9th, Mending, Telekinesis,Shrink Item Craft Wondrous Item Price 20,000 gp (one bracer) Ignoring the illogicality of such a weapon, its price depends upon how you intend for it to be used. As I stated earlier, the difference between the item triggering on an attack and being "always on," while slight, has a monumental difference in the item's power and usefulness. Really, the most powerful thing about reach is the ability to attack creatures as they attempt to engage you in melee, but this attack can, in many ways, render them ineffective or severely hamper their ability to damage you, making reach one of the more powerful abilities in the game Keeping in mind that an increase to reach (large size, basically) is a +1 CR increase almost all by itself, causing me to question whether or not 20,000 gold is really enough for this item (if it does indeed allow you to threaten areas outside your normal reach. Since I would likely allow the item as it is currently written to give you reach when you attack for 15,000 to 20,000 gold, I think it requires a substantial prince increase if it does allow you to threaten at ten feet. Due to the variability of such an item, however, I really can't comment on the price, but 20,000 is not really high enough. Reach is powerful, and extremely so. Really the only reason a spiked chain combo is so "abusive" is due to its reach, and the things that you can do with that reach. A similar tactic could easily be done with an enlarged monk, which evidences how good reach is. To the phrasing of item itself, you do need to tweak it, specifically to state the exact function of the item's new reach property. Your phrasing does leave one wondering precisely how the item works in regards to normal reach weapons. And the price . . . was that totally arbitrary? It sounds like the weapon flies out anime style on chains to strike at range. :rolleyes: Anime? Hardly since the weapons are based on an American game. I am not the original writer but since I played the game in question the weapon would have reach. While the item may not have its basis in Anime, it still has a very anime "feel." Throwing a weapon then pulling it back the way the original poster described is a common anime theme, and one that more realistic media generally do not attempt to emulate, do to the unrealistic nature of throwing a bladed weapon (it just doesn't work; it's not like a lightsaber, where the cutting edge is the entire blade).
Lord Zeb 02-02-06, 04:10 PM	That depends. Does the item in question give you reach when you attack with it? Or does it allow you to threaten ten feet out? The description of the item seems evincive of the former, but I doubt most people would interpret it that way. Ignoring the illogicality of such a weapon, its price depends upon how you intend for it to be used. As I stated earlier, the difference between the item triggering on an attack and being "always on," while slight, has a monumental difference in the item's power and usefulness. Really, the most powerful thing about reach is the ability to attack creatures as they attempt to engage you in melee, but this attack can, in many ways, render them ineffective or severely hamper their ability to damage you, making reach one of the more powerful abilities in the game Keeping in mind that an increase to reach (large size, basically) is a +1 CR increase almost all by itself, causing me to question whether or not 20,000 gold is really enough for this item (if it does indeed allow you to threaten areas outside your normal reach. Since I would likely allow the item as it is currently written to give you reach when you attack for 15,000 to 20,000 gold, I think it requires a substantial prince increase if it does allow you to threaten at ten feet. Due to the variability of such an item, however, I really can't comment on the price, but 20,000 is not really high enough. Reach is powerful, and extremely so. Really the only reason a spiked chain combo is so "abusive" is due to its reach, and the things that you can do with that reach. A similar tactic could easily be done with an enlarged monk, which evidences how good reach is. To the phrasing of item itself, you do need to tweak it, specifically to state the exact function of the item's new reach property. Your phrasing does leave one wondering precisely how the item works in regards to normal reach weapons. And the price . . . was that totally arbitrary? While the item may not have its basis in Anime, it still has a very anime "feel." Throwing a weapon then pulling it back the way the original poster described is a common anime theme, and one that more realistic media generally do not attempt to emulate, do to the unrealistic nature of throwing a bladed weapon (it just doesn't work; it's not like a lightsaber, where the cutting edge is the entire blade). The idea was to just have reach in the attacking, not to threaten 10' out. 20k was kinda sorta arbitrary, I looked through the Moderate Wondrous Item section, as that is where I would place it. How much do you think it should be?
Lord Zeb 02-02-06, 04:19 PM	Revised the description a little bit.
tarkin 02-02-06, 04:24 PM	20,000 is reasonable if it threatens. 1/2 the price if it does not. also 1/2 it if it does not stack with both a reach weapon and drinking a potion of Enlarge.
Esponer 02-02-06, 05:10 PM	Revised the description a little bit. As written, a Colossal creature using the Bracers of Reach will actually have less reach, as it fixes your reach at 10ft. Should it not say that it allows you to treat the weapon as both a standard weapon, and also a reach weapon, as desired (but doesn't let you threaten as a reach weapon)?
masterofmayhem 02-02-06, 05:25 PM	The idea was to just have reach in the attacking, not to threaten 10' out. 20k was kinda sorta arbitrary, I looked through the Moderate Wondrous Item section, as that is where I would place it. :) 20,000 is reasonable if it threatens. Really? You think 20,000 is a good price for it? Hmm . . . Perhaps I am being a little stringent. I recall that a "Ring of Enlarge" was generally priced at around that amount, so I guess this would actually be OK at 20,000 . . . I'd likely not allow it in any of my campaigns (for fluff reasons as much as anything else), but tarkin has a better idea of magic item pricings than do I, so I'll go with that. As written, a Colossal creature using the Bracers of Reach will actually have less reach, as it fixes your reach at 10ft. Should it not say that it allows you to treat the weapon as both a standard weapon, and also a reach weapon, as desired (but doesn't let you threaten as a reach weapon)? I think the proper phrasing for it would be to "double your reach." That's what most reach weapons do, I believe. Of course, you would add in the clause about still being able to attack squares within your reach.
bondious 02-02-06, 05:54 PM	It stacks with both a reach weapon, and with your being enlarged. So if you have a spiked chain, drink a potion of Enlarge Person, and wield this weapon, you have reach of 30ft. Remember, as part of the description, the wielder may only use one-handed and light weapons with these bracers, so most reach weapons (being two-handed) would be right out. While the item may not have its basis in Anime, it still has a very anime "feel." Throwing a weapon then pulling it back the way the original poster described is a common anime theme, and one that more realistic media generally do not attempt to emulate, do to the unrealistic nature of throwing a bladed weapon (it just doesn't work; it's not like a lightsaber, where the cutting edge is the entire blade). If this was some kind of inherent ability or special attack of a class or prestige class then I'd say you are correct. The thing is that these are MAGICAL items, and in D&D there are some pretty odd things you can do with magic. Really, to, does this seem any stranger then a Throwing and Returning Longsword? Animated Shields, Dancing Weapons, etc...I'd say that these bracers aren't TOO out of the ordinary. My thoughts: I agree with Tarkin's pricing, though I don't think that I would allow these items to threaten...only for attack purposes. :)
solomani 02-02-06, 06:48 PM	Is 10 foot reach really worth that much? Somethings are just a cool concept and worth the price of admission. I would hazard to guess all the naysayers have never played God of War so they have not seen them in action. Ignoring the illogicality of such a weapon, Illogicality? Its a fantasy game with magic and all sorts of other things that violate physics let alone logic. Why pick at the illogicality of an item. Is the Staff of the Arch Mage somehow more logical? I am guessing you dislike them more due to the anime thing than any appeal to common sense. That would work if he were trying to re-create the Blades of Chaos exactly. As a matter of fact, it's already done for you in an issue of Dragon (I think 328, but don't hold me to that). Did not know that. I must of missed it. I will look it up.
masterofmayhem 02-02-06, 06:49 PM	If this was some kind of inherent ability or special attack of a class or prestige class then I'd say you are correct. The thing is that these are MAGICAL items, and in D&D there are some pretty odd things you can do with magic. Really, to, does this seem any stranger then a Throwing and Returning Longsword? Animated Shields, Dancing Weapons, etc...I'd say that these bracers aren't TOO out of the ordinary. The way I see it, the item would make logical sense if you could, say, control the chains that connect you to your weapon. That way, you are essentially wielding your weapon normally. It just happens to be five feet away from you. Throwing the weapon, then pulling it back with chains just seems less likely, to me. And a throwing weapon is different because it can spin end over end, bringing its cutting edge to bear. A weapon chained to someone's arm has no such option. Some weapons, however, would still make sense, like some swords that could be forcefully thrusted at the opponent at a range. But a thrown battleaxe that cannot spin? Slightly less so. But, yes, I think the weapon would make perfect sense if it was "held" as if the chains were an extension of your arms (you essentially have "prehensile" chains ;)). That might not be the feel Lord Zeb is going for, though. Oh, and I am curious . . . If you had two of these weapons, could you wield a two-handed weapon with them, Lord Zeb? And also, what about changing the item so that, rather than giving reach or doubling reach, it added five feet to your reach? I think that would make sense, while benefitting creatures of all sizes (although some more than others, obviously).
MaverickWolf 02-03-06, 07:30 AM	Somethings are just a cool concept and worth the price of admission. I would hazard to guess all the naysayers have never played God of War so they have not seen them in action. You are indeed correct, but we're looking for the right price by a balance standpoint only, so....
Lord Zeb 02-03-06, 07:32 AM	But, yes, I think the weapon would make perfect sense if it was "held" as if the chains were an extension of your arms (you essentially have "prehensile" chains ;)). That might not be the feel Lord Zeb is going for, though. It's not. Oh, and I am curious . . . If you had two of these weapons, could you wield a two-handed weapon with them, Lord Zeb? Like have both chains attach to 1 larger weapon? Definitely not intended to allow that - at least not in my campaign. :) And also, what about changing the item so that, rather than giving reach or doubling reach, it added five feet to your reach? I think that would make sense, while benefitting creatures of all sizes (although some more than others, obviously). Sold! +5' is what I was going for, so that is how it will read.
masterofmayhem 02-03-06, 01:37 PM	Your post slipped in right before mine, so I didn't notice it. :) Somethings are just a cool concept and worth the price of admission. I would hazard to guess all the naysayers have never played God of War so they have not seen them in action. Regardless of where it comes from, I can easily imagine it in my head, and have no problem envisioning it as "cool." My dispute the entire time has been with the possibilities of imbalance. In fact, I believe I stated earlier that I did not care that the weapon made little sense, since this is a fantasy world, and it's really the balance rather than logic that matters for a magical item. Illogicality? Its a fantasy game with magic and all sorts of other things that violate physics let alone logic. Why pick at the illogicality of an item. Is the Staff of the Arch Mage somehow more logical? Yes, the Staff of the Archmage is more logical. It follows whatever "physics" govern the magic forces of the world. And while I know that the posted item could easily be done with magic, that woldn't change the fact that it would make some items (like a battleaxe) look rather hokey. Still, some items would look pretty sweet, I imagine. I am guessing you dislike them more due to the anime thing than any appeal to common sense. Hardly. I am an avid fan of anime, and watch many of the anime shows I can in my spare time. And while I do enjoy them, I am aware that some of the stunts performed are impossible even in most D&D fantasy settings. I happen to like the idea of throwing your weapon, actually.
MaverickWolf 02-06-06, 10:56 AM	Just bumping this up, as I'm thinking 20,000 is a bit much for this thing. It just feels high....Maybe for a pair...but not for just one...
Lord Zeb 02-06-06, 11:11 AM	Just bumping this up, as I'm thinking 20,000 is a bit much for this thing. It just feels high....Maybe for a pair...but not for just one... What do you think the price for one should be? 10k? That is in the Glove of Storing range (free Quick Draw effectively), so I figured (free reach increase) was worth a bit more. Would 15k for one be more appropriate?
masterofmayhem 02-06-06, 11:46 AM	Tarkin said earlier that ten thousand was a good price if it did not threaten.
tarkin 02-06-06, 11:55 AM	While I am clearly not official, I do think that "threatening" is worth a lot. Higher reach without the capability to take AoO's is basically equivelent to having a faster speed and avoiding AoO's yourself for moving. But Threatening allows AoO's for yourself (which becomes a very big deal if you have Combat Reflexes) and also allows you to flank. These two things are worth at least 1/2 of the power of reach in my opinion.
Lord Zeb 02-07-06, 08:11 PM	Hmm, found this interesting power...wonder how a persistent item of this power would work out cost wise. Reach Psychometabolism (Str) Level: Psion 2 / Psychic Warrior 2 Display: Vi (see text), Ma Manifestation Time: 1 action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: No Power Resistance: No Power Points: 3 Your limbs lengthen and become suppler, thus increasing the area you threaten by 5 feet while the duration lasts. For instance, if you normally threaten a 5 feet radius area (normal for a Medium-size creature), you now threaten a 10 feet radius area; your Face/Reach is now 5 feet by 5 feet/10 feet. Manifesting the power is a free action, like manifesting a quickened power, and it counts toward the normal limit of one quickened power per round. WoTC Minds Eye link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20010928a)
Lord Zeb 02-07-06, 08:42 PM	Hmm, ML 3 x 2nd level power x 2,000gp for Continuous Universal Item = 12,000gp -- grants reach +5' and threatens. Interesting. (replace with CL 3 x 2nd level spell x 2,000gp for Continuous Wondrous Item for non-psionic version)