Break DCs for a staff and composite short bow [Archive] - Wizards Community

Break DCs for a staff and composite short bow [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shadowfax7
11-20-05, 07:18 PM I am looking for opinions on break DCs for a staff and a short composite bow.

In other words if someone took one of those 2 items and attempted to snap it in 2 over his knee, what would be the break DC ??

For reference in the PHB, rope has a burst DC 23, Chain has a burst DC 26, I was thinking a DC 24 for a staff or bow, but an iron bar can be bent at DC 24.
sandskimmer
11-20-05, 09:33 PM In comparison to the examples you gave, I'd make it lower, say around 20. It's far easier to break a staff than bend an iron pipe. Wooden staves break all the time in combat (in the real world, that is).
MindWandererB
11-20-05, 10:04 PM I would go even lower. Consider this: what's the likelihood of Joe Shmoe succeeding at the task? For a composite shortbow, I'd say DC 10 or less (Str of 10-11=50% chance). Breaking a quarterstaff is a lot harder; DC 18 or so might be right.

Tearing a thick rope in your bare hands is a lot harder than breaking either of these items. For one, a Str 16-17 character can only succeed on a 20. For another, just imagine it. I sure couldn't tear a rope. But given many tries I'm sure I could break a quarterstaff, and I could probably break a composite shortbow over my knee on the first try.
Waterhammer
11-20-05, 10:31 PM Sorry,I should have read up on the rules before posting. Do they specify the dimensions of the iron bar in question?
The point is;an iron bar that is 1/4"x1 1/2" bends quite easily along one axis,and not at all along the other. Note also that this is mild steel,not a sword blade.

I have tried to break a well seasoned piece of hard wood across my knee and could not. It flexed instead, and unlike the mild steel bar returned to its original position. The wooden staff in question was approx. 1 1/2" Dia.

It should be noted that IRL my STR is something like 9.
Ironwulf
11-20-05, 10:36 PM I'm not sure about that. The entire purpose of a bow is to bend without breaking. A composite shortbow should take around 100lb of pressure repeatedly. So in my humble oppinion I would bump up the DC to around 15.
Shadowfax7
11-21-05, 09:59 AM Thanx for your replies.

Tearing a thick rope in your bare hands is a lot harder than breaking either of these items.
This was my confusion, I was thinking that wood is harder to break than rope. Thus if it takes a DC 23 to burst rope, to break wood must be a higher DC.

After reading the above posts, I am thinking DC 18 for a normal staff and +2 DC for a MW staff ??

I forgot to mention this was a MW staff.

But for the composite short bow, I feel DC 10 is way too low. Wouldn't the composite materials make it stronger, besides more flexible ??

Maybe DC 13 for a normal short bow and +4 DC for a composite short bow ??

The bow isn't MW.
Shadowfax7
11-22-05, 04:12 PM Any opinions on the following break DCs:

DC 18 for a normal staff and +2 DC for a MW staff ??

DC 13 for a normal short bow and +4 DC for a composite short bow ??

The bow isn't MW.
tarkin
11-22-05, 04:27 PM Keep in mind that with regards to a Staff of Power:

If this breaking of the staff is purposeful and declared by the wielder, it can be performed as a standard action that does not require the wielder to make a Strength check.

and

Break down simple door DC 13

I would have to make it even easier.

I would say that if a simple door is DC 13, and no DC is needed for a magic staff designed to break, then using a standard action to break a regular staff should not have a DC > than 15. 17 if masterwork.

But that would be a Standard action that provokes an AoO, and if the AoO succeeded, it prevents the breaking of the staff as well as does damage.
Shadowfax7
11-22-05, 09:16 PM I would say that if a simple door is DC 13, and no DC is needed for a magic staff designed to break, then using a standard action to break a regular staff should not have a DC > than 15. 17 if masterwork.

I was actually looking at >>> Break down good door DC 18

Since I figured a simple door wouldn't be as thick as a good staff ??

There is also >>> Break down strong door DC 23, but I figured this would be an iron bound door.

But OK, if a staff would be DC 15 or less, and a MW staff DC 17 or less, than what about a short bow and a composite bow ?? I was thinking they might be DC 13.

Also, would a composite bow be easier to break or harder due to its composite materials build ??
CryoSilver
11-22-05, 10:02 PM Breaking down a door is more a fuction of blasting the hinges; the weakest part of a door. You aren't putting your fist though anything that isn't hollow-core, or busting it in half without breaking the hinges first.

As to breaking the bow: let's look at it this way. The average person, even a strong guy (Str 14) can, on average, 3 damage on a blow: a good solid blow, and enough to almost knock someone out. That's probably all of his weight behind it: 200 lbs, let's say. Now, when I punch, it's only impact with 2 knuckles, to concentrate the blow. 1 square inch. 200 lbs/in^2 force in that guy's punch, then. A hunting bow with less than a 60 lb pull is wimpy. A 90 lb pull is tough. A bow intended for warfare could probably easily break 150 lbs of pull. That means the bow can take that much SUDDEN FORCE as it snaps forward. A hunting bow fires 233 fps on average. That warbow probably hits more like 300 fps. The momentum of the bow is therefore 150 lbs moving over 300 fps. You are NOT going to be able to generate force that fast with your bare hands. Assume, then, that you need a 15 to snap the bow: oh, you'll do it, but probably not the first time around. DC 17.

The staff I'd say DC 17 as well: it's thicker, but less flexible.
Kendrick
11-22-05, 10:30 PM Breaking down a door is more a fuction of blasting the hinges; the weakest part of a door. You aren't putting your fist though anything that isn't hollow-core, or busting it in half without breaking the hinges first.

As to breaking the bow: let's look at it this way. The average person, even a strong guy (Str 14) can, on average, 3 damage on a blow: a good solid blow, and enough to almost knock someone out. That's probably all of his weight behind it: 200 lbs, let's say. Now, when I punch, it's only impact with 2 knuckles, to concentrate the blow. 1 square inch. 200 lbs/in^2 force in that guy's punch, then. A hunting bow with less than a 60 lb pull is wimpy. A 90 lb pull is tough. A bow intended for warfare could probably easily break 150 lbs of pull. That means the bow can take that much SUDDEN FORCE as it snaps forward. A hunting bow fires 233 fps on average. That warbow probably hits more like 300 fps. The momentum of the bow is therefore 150 lbs moving over 300 fps. You are NOT going to be able to generate force that fast with your bare hands. Assume, then, that you need a 15 to snap the bow: oh, you'll do it, but probably not the first time around. DC 17.

The staff I'd say DC 17 as well: it's thicker, but less flexible.

You do realize that composite bows are designed to bend only one way, right?

I suspect that if you bend it the wrong way, the composite materials actually make it more likely to break.

Composite bow = Wood core, Sinew laminated to the front because it's elastic and pulls back to it's original shape, Horn laminated to the back because it compresses well and then snaps back to its original shape.

Now turn that thing around: The horn isn't going to help it hold together when it's being stretched instead of compressed, the sinew is going to do absolutely nothing, and the wood will break just like regular wood.

The real question is whether the bow is strung. an unstrung bow would be easy to snap - I'd say DC 10 maximum. A strung bow would be more difficult to break with your hands, but if you could put it on the ground and step on it right, it wouldn't be too hard - maybe DC 12-13. Just make sure you're wearing heavy armor when you do it, cause that mofo's under tension, and somebody will get hurt when you do this, unless everyone within, say, 5 ft. is well protected.

Edit to add: This wouldn't likely break the bow in the exact middle. I'm not sure what you're thinking of, but if you want a particular break it would be harder. I'm talkin' about breaking off one of the limbs halfway, more likely.
CryoSilver
11-23-05, 08:29 PM I suppsoe if you just wanted to break it beyond usefulness, you could just jam it into a doorframe and bodyslam it, too. But I stand by DC 17.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shadowfax7 11-20-05, 07:18 PM	I am looking for opinions on break DCs for a staff and a short composite bow. In other words if someone took one of those 2 items and attempted to snap it in 2 over his knee, what would be the break DC ?? For reference in the PHB, rope has a burst DC 23, Chain has a burst DC 26, I was thinking a DC 24 for a staff or bow, but an iron bar can be bent at DC 24.
sandskimmer 11-20-05, 09:33 PM	In comparison to the examples you gave, I'd make it lower, say around 20. It's far easier to break a staff than bend an iron pipe. Wooden staves break all the time in combat (in the real world, that is).
MindWandererB 11-20-05, 10:04 PM	I would go even lower. Consider this: what's the likelihood of Joe Shmoe succeeding at the task? For a composite shortbow, I'd say DC 10 or less (Str of 10-11=50% chance). Breaking a quarterstaff is a lot harder; DC 18 or so might be right. Tearing a thick rope in your bare hands is a lot harder than breaking either of these items. For one, a Str 16-17 character can only succeed on a 20. For another, just imagine it. I sure couldn't tear a rope. But given many tries I'm sure I could break a quarterstaff, and I could probably break a composite shortbow over my knee on the first try.
Waterhammer 11-20-05, 10:31 PM	Sorry,I should have read up on the rules before posting. Do they specify the dimensions of the iron bar in question? The point is;an iron bar that is 1/4"x1 1/2" bends quite easily along one axis,and not at all along the other. Note also that this is mild steel,not a sword blade. I have tried to break a well seasoned piece of hard wood across my knee and could not. It flexed instead, and unlike the mild steel bar returned to its original position. The wooden staff in question was approx. 1 1/2" Dia. It should be noted that IRL my STR is something like 9.
Ironwulf 11-20-05, 10:36 PM	I'm not sure about that. The entire purpose of a bow is to bend without breaking. A composite shortbow should take around 100lb of pressure repeatedly. So in my humble oppinion I would bump up the DC to around 15.
Shadowfax7 11-21-05, 09:59 AM	Thanx for your replies. Tearing a thick rope in your bare hands is a lot harder than breaking either of these items. This was my confusion, I was thinking that wood is harder to break than rope. Thus if it takes a DC 23 to burst rope, to break wood must be a higher DC. After reading the above posts, I am thinking DC 18 for a normal staff and +2 DC for a MW staff ?? I forgot to mention this was a MW staff. But for the composite short bow, I feel DC 10 is way too low. Wouldn't the composite materials make it stronger, besides more flexible ?? Maybe DC 13 for a normal short bow and +4 DC for a composite short bow ?? The bow isn't MW.
Shadowfax7 11-22-05, 04:12 PM	Any opinions on the following break DCs: DC 18 for a normal staff and +2 DC for a MW staff ?? DC 13 for a normal short bow and +4 DC for a composite short bow ?? The bow isn't MW.
tarkin 11-22-05, 04:27 PM	Keep in mind that with regards to a Staff of Power: If this breaking of the staff is purposeful and declared by the wielder, it can be performed as a standard action that does not require the wielder to make a Strength check. and Break down simple door DC 13 I would have to make it even easier. I would say that if a simple door is DC 13, and no DC is needed for a magic staff designed to break, then using a standard action to break a regular staff should not have a DC > than 15. 17 if masterwork. But that would be a Standard action that provokes an AoO, and if the AoO succeeded, it prevents the breaking of the staff as well as does damage.
Shadowfax7 11-22-05, 09:16 PM	I would say that if a simple door is DC 13, and no DC is needed for a magic staff designed to break, then using a standard action to break a regular staff should not have a DC > than 15. 17 if masterwork. I was actually looking at >>> Break down good door DC 18 Since I figured a simple door wouldn't be as thick as a good staff ?? There is also >>> Break down strong door DC 23, but I figured this would be an iron bound door. But OK, if a staff would be DC 15 or less, and a MW staff DC 17 or less, than what about a short bow and a composite bow ?? I was thinking they might be DC 13. Also, would a composite bow be easier to break or harder due to its composite materials build ??
CryoSilver 11-22-05, 10:02 PM	Breaking down a door is more a fuction of blasting the hinges; the weakest part of a door. You aren't putting your fist though anything that isn't hollow-core, or busting it in half without breaking the hinges first. As to breaking the bow: let's look at it this way. The average person, even a strong guy (Str 14) can, on average, 3 damage on a blow: a good solid blow, and enough to almost knock someone out. That's probably all of his weight behind it: 200 lbs, let's say. Now, when I punch, it's only impact with 2 knuckles, to concentrate the blow. 1 square inch. 200 lbs/in^2 force in that guy's punch, then. A hunting bow with less than a 60 lb pull is wimpy. A 90 lb pull is tough. A bow intended for warfare could probably easily break 150 lbs of pull. That means the bow can take that much SUDDEN FORCE as it snaps forward. A hunting bow fires 233 fps on average. That warbow probably hits more like 300 fps. The momentum of the bow is therefore 150 lbs moving over 300 fps. You are NOT going to be able to generate force that fast with your bare hands. Assume, then, that you need a 15 to snap the bow: oh, you'll do it, but probably not the first time around. DC 17. The staff I'd say DC 17 as well: it's thicker, but less flexible.
Kendrick 11-22-05, 10:30 PM	Breaking down a door is more a fuction of blasting the hinges; the weakest part of a door. You aren't putting your fist though anything that isn't hollow-core, or busting it in half without breaking the hinges first. As to breaking the bow: let's look at it this way. The average person, even a strong guy (Str 14) can, on average, 3 damage on a blow: a good solid blow, and enough to almost knock someone out. That's probably all of his weight behind it: 200 lbs, let's say. Now, when I punch, it's only impact with 2 knuckles, to concentrate the blow. 1 square inch. 200 lbs/in^2 force in that guy's punch, then. A hunting bow with less than a 60 lb pull is wimpy. A 90 lb pull is tough. A bow intended for warfare could probably easily break 150 lbs of pull. That means the bow can take that much SUDDEN FORCE as it snaps forward. A hunting bow fires 233 fps on average. That warbow probably hits more like 300 fps. The momentum of the bow is therefore 150 lbs moving over 300 fps. You are NOT going to be able to generate force that fast with your bare hands. Assume, then, that you need a 15 to snap the bow: oh, you'll do it, but probably not the first time around. DC 17. The staff I'd say DC 17 as well: it's thicker, but less flexible. You do realize that composite bows are designed to bend only one way, right? I suspect that if you bend it the wrong way, the composite materials actually make it more likely to break. Composite bow = Wood core, Sinew laminated to the front because it's elastic and pulls back to it's original shape, Horn laminated to the back because it compresses well and then snaps back to its original shape. Now turn that thing around: The horn isn't going to help it hold together when it's being stretched instead of compressed, the sinew is going to do absolutely nothing, and the wood will break just like regular wood. The real question is whether the bow is strung. an unstrung bow would be easy to snap - I'd say DC 10 maximum. A strung bow would be more difficult to break with your hands, but if you could put it on the ground and step on it right, it wouldn't be too hard - maybe DC 12-13. Just make sure you're wearing heavy armor when you do it, cause that mofo's under tension, and somebody will get hurt when you do this, unless everyone within, say, 5 ft. is well protected. Edit to add: This wouldn't likely break the bow in the exact middle. I'm not sure what you're thinking of, but if you want a particular break it would be harder. I'm talkin' about breaking off one of the limbs halfway, more likely.
CryoSilver 11-23-05, 08:29 PM	I suppsoe if you just wanted to break it beyond usefulness, you could just jam it into a doorframe and bodyslam it, too. But I stand by DC 17.