Breaking someone's back? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Breaking someone's back? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AzraMole
04-13-07, 06:31 PM The character I am playing at the moment is a barbarian with 32 strength when in rage. He is focused on unarmed combat and loves to grapple opponents. One of the things I would like my charcter to be able to do is break someone's back when pinning/grappling. I figure I should be able to do this with a strength check, but do not know how high the DC of the check should be. What do u guys think?
Inigo Carmine
04-13-07, 07:00 PM Breaking someone's back is pretty much just a descriptive way of saying you've disabled/killed someone.

If you do enough unarmed damage to bring someone to -10 HP, you can have your DM say that you've broken their back.
RavenGraygem
04-13-07, 07:03 PM @Inigo: He's probably going for an instant-kill type of attack, not flavor.

Off-hand, I'd say a DC equal to at least the target's Strength score, with a miscellaneous modifier thrown in to represent the unusual position required, the (somewhat) resilient nature of the spinal cord, and the target's size in relation to you (+1 for each category larger, -1 for each category smaller); it's generally easier to snap the spine of a smaller creature than that of a larger one.

Allow the target a Fort save against that DC to avoid dying right then and there. Of course, it'd be easier to just twist their head off like a bottle cap.
PirateAle
04-13-07, 07:14 PM This may not be what your asking about but a reaping mauler gets devestating grapple at 5th level which kills someone after 3 rounds of pinning with a relitivly high save I think, along with some awesome other grapple stuff. Complete Warrior I think.
mvincent
04-13-07, 08:21 PM If you do enough unarmed damage to bring someone to -10 HP, you can have your DM say that you've broken their back.I'd allow it -1 hp
Cthulhu3125
04-13-07, 08:26 PM This may not be what your asking about but a reaping mauler gets devestating grapple at 5th level which kills someone after 3 rounds of pinning with a relitivly high save I think, along with some awesome other grapple stuff. Complete Warrior I think.

I'd say this would be the solution - better to use published rules than go arbitrarily making new things up. Otherwise, every monster with a decent strength score will be breaking the backs of, and insta-killing, the PCs.
jacobi289
04-13-07, 09:01 PM Yeah, I'd also agree that breaking someone's back is just the descriptive way of saying you took them to -1 hp.

If someone had 4 hp (a commoner perhaps), you could break their back in one round of grapple. Having 45 hp, on the other hand, is the abstract representation that one is too tough to simply have their back broken. You'd have to struggle and injure that person a great deal before you could land the killing blow.
Plothos
04-13-07, 10:29 PM 1. A broken back is pretty serious business. I'd require a heck of a lot before I let this happen, and bear in mind that the players would be subject to the same attacks.

2. Point of order: you don't drop HP at all when you take non-lethal damage. You keep a running total of nonlethal damage and fall unconscious when it meets or exceeds your current HP, which is only reduced by lethal damage. Minor quibble.

3. Say you have 10 HP and then take 10 nonlethal in a grapple. What does that mean in terms of established core mechanics? Well, for one thing it means that if you just lay there for an hour you wake up and are completely able to get up and run around again. If you're tenth level, you get 10 nonlethal damage back in an hour, so you could exceed your HP by as much as nine and still spring right back up with no healing, no medical attention, no nothin. Doesn't sound like a broken back to me. Whatever rule you come up with will ideally make sense within the system as already defined.
Empiro
04-13-07, 10:53 PM I agree with the other posters that you should just represent it by doing damage to your opponent, and possibly taking some PrCs like Reaping Mauler to make your grapple more dangerous.

Otherwise, I'm sure that the Glabrezu, who has 31 strength, pincers the size of a human, and a grapple check of +30, would love to know the DC to use his pincers to snap an adventurer in half.
j3st3r
04-14-07, 12:15 AM One way of adding critical conditions like broken backs is using rules from Torn Asunder by Bastion Press. An excellent book for adding more realism to many combat situations (but also PC's, NPC's and monster's mortality).
Jandulh
04-16-07, 03:29 PM If it wasn't for the "You can take no move actions during a grapple" I'd love to make a jump check and maybe even a tumble check to perform the spinning pile driver...http://xnguyen.com/images/zangief-fab.gif

I think this gif is 5 rounds of grappling...intiate grapple, pinned, pinned, dc:15 jump check dc 15 tumble check, Dc 20 jump check and dc 15 tumble...
mvincent
04-16-07, 04:00 PM If it wasn't for the "You can take no move actions during a grapple" I'd love to make a jump check and maybe even a tumble check to perform the spinning pile driverYou can describe the grappling action pretty much anyway you desire (without making extra rolls), but there is this rule:
"You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.

Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple."

So, you could both jump and tumble while grappling if desired.
tarkin
04-16-07, 04:58 PM I like the -1 rule. Bring him down to -1, using a grapple, and his back is broken.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AzraMole 04-13-07, 06:31 PM	The character I am playing at the moment is a barbarian with 32 strength when in rage. He is focused on unarmed combat and loves to grapple opponents. One of the things I would like my charcter to be able to do is break someone's back when pinning/grappling. I figure I should be able to do this with a strength check, but do not know how high the DC of the check should be. What do u guys think?
Inigo Carmine 04-13-07, 07:00 PM	Breaking someone's back is pretty much just a descriptive way of saying you've disabled/killed someone. If you do enough unarmed damage to bring someone to -10 HP, you can have your DM say that you've broken their back.
RavenGraygem 04-13-07, 07:03 PM	@Inigo: He's probably going for an instant-kill type of attack, not flavor. Off-hand, I'd say a DC equal to at least the target's Strength score, with a miscellaneous modifier thrown in to represent the unusual position required, the (somewhat) resilient nature of the spinal cord, and the target's size in relation to you (+1 for each category larger, -1 for each category smaller); it's generally easier to snap the spine of a smaller creature than that of a larger one. Allow the target a Fort save against that DC to avoid dying right then and there. Of course, it'd be easier to just twist their head off like a bottle cap.
PirateAle 04-13-07, 07:14 PM	This may not be what your asking about but a reaping mauler gets devestating grapple at 5th level which kills someone after 3 rounds of pinning with a relitivly high save I think, along with some awesome other grapple stuff. Complete Warrior I think.
mvincent 04-13-07, 08:21 PM	If you do enough unarmed damage to bring someone to -10 HP, you can have your DM say that you've broken their back.I'd allow it -1 hp
Cthulhu3125 04-13-07, 08:26 PM	This may not be what your asking about but a reaping mauler gets devestating grapple at 5th level which kills someone after 3 rounds of pinning with a relitivly high save I think, along with some awesome other grapple stuff. Complete Warrior I think. I'd say this would be the solution - better to use published rules than go arbitrarily making new things up. Otherwise, every monster with a decent strength score will be breaking the backs of, and insta-killing, the PCs.
jacobi289 04-13-07, 09:01 PM	Yeah, I'd also agree that breaking someone's back is just the descriptive way of saying you took them to -1 hp. If someone had 4 hp (a commoner perhaps), you could break their back in one round of grapple. Having 45 hp, on the other hand, is the abstract representation that one is too tough to simply have their back broken. You'd have to struggle and injure that person a great deal before you could land the killing blow.
Plothos 04-13-07, 10:29 PM	1. A broken back is pretty serious business. I'd require a heck of a lot before I let this happen, and bear in mind that the players would be subject to the same attacks. 2. Point of order: you don't drop HP at all when you take non-lethal damage. You keep a running total of nonlethal damage and fall unconscious when it meets or exceeds your current HP, which is only reduced by lethal damage. Minor quibble. 3. Say you have 10 HP and then take 10 nonlethal in a grapple. What does that mean in terms of established core mechanics? Well, for one thing it means that if you just lay there for an hour you wake up and are completely able to get up and run around again. If you're tenth level, you get 10 nonlethal damage back in an hour, so you could exceed your HP by as much as nine and still spring right back up with no healing, no medical attention, no nothin. Doesn't sound like a broken back to me. Whatever rule you come up with will ideally make sense within the system as already defined.
Empiro 04-13-07, 10:53 PM	I agree with the other posters that you should just represent it by doing damage to your opponent, and possibly taking some PrCs like Reaping Mauler to make your grapple more dangerous. Otherwise, I'm sure that the Glabrezu, who has 31 strength, pincers the size of a human, and a grapple check of +30, would love to know the DC to use his pincers to snap an adventurer in half.
j3st3r 04-14-07, 12:15 AM	One way of adding critical conditions like broken backs is using rules from Torn Asunder by Bastion Press. An excellent book for adding more realism to many combat situations (but also PC's, NPC's and monster's mortality).
Jandulh 04-16-07, 03:29 PM	If it wasn't for the "You can take no move actions during a grapple" I'd love to make a jump check and maybe even a tumble check to perform the spinning pile driver...http://xnguyen.com/images/zangief-fab.gif I think this gif is 5 rounds of grappling...intiate grapple, pinned, pinned, dc:15 jump check dc 15 tumble check, Dc 20 jump check and dc 15 tumble...
mvincent 04-16-07, 04:00 PM	If it wasn't for the "You can take no move actions during a grapple" I'd love to make a jump check and maybe even a tumble check to perform the spinning pile driverYou can describe the grappling action pretty much anyway you desire (without making extra rolls), but there is this rule: "You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple. Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple." So, you could both jump and tumble while grappling if desired.
tarkin 04-16-07, 04:58 PM	I like the -1 rule. Bring him down to -1, using a grapple, and his back is broken.