Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Seifalmasy 01-04-05, 12:27 AM	As far as I can tell from reading the PHB, the only difference between a breastplate and chainmail is that, for 50 GP extra, a character in breastplate can add an additional point of dex to his AC, suffers one less point of armor check penalty, has 5% less arcane spell failure chance, and the armor weighs 10 less pounds, with no drawback and the same armor bonus to AC. Same thing, in fact, between splint and banded mail. Now at first this isn't an issue; some armor is simply designed better then others, and the GP saving reflects larger armies providing shock troops (with no need to make skill checks, cast spells, or have high dex scores) with mroe affordable gear. The problem I have is the elven chain, from the DMG, seems obsolete. For 50 extra gp (nothing when you've already spent 4000+ GP on the item to begin with), a mithral breastplate is simply a better buy. It seems they'd include a simply inferior item, much less one as cool as elven chain. Am I missing anything?
isaac anthony 01-04-05, 12:36 AM	arcane failure, priceless... for an arcane caster.
Draco Strang 01-04-05, 01:31 AM	Don't forget the fluff value, either. Lots of people don't mind their ranger/rogue running around in mithral chain, but the logistics of said character trying to do what they do in a breastplate. Sure mithral is light and strong, but it's still rigid and inflexible in plate form. Try doing handsprings and cartwheels in a breastplate. I bet it's hard.
Seifalmasy 01-04-05, 01:33 AM	The fluff value is appreciable... But as far as is written, cartwheels and handstands (tumble) is still easier in a mithral breastplate then elven chain; it has less of a check penalty.
Edymnion 01-04-05, 01:49 AM	Which is, in my opinion, bullhocky. I've worn a chain tabard, and I have worn a steel breastplate. The chain is heavier (god is it heavier!) in your hands, but once you get it on, you really don't notice the weight of chain. Fun thing about chainmail is that its sorta like spandex, it stretches a bit to fit you, meaning the weight is distributed across your entire torso, and not on the shoulders like a breastplate. Plus the fact that you CAN NOT bend over in a breastplate that goes down past your waist, while you can tumble quite easily in it. But, it is heavy, and while you don't feel it so much just standing there, it makes balancing very difficult because of how topheavy you are in it. However, chain is noiser than a breastplate, meaning you can't sneak up on somebody as easily. Overall though, I'm rather dissappointed in 3e chain. I would probably have actually traded the stats for the breastplate and the chainmail if I had been the one making the choices, actually. But you're right, for pure crunch reasons, there are only 3 suits of armor you should ever wear. Chain shirt, Breastplate, or Full Plate. Everything else is sub-par by comparison.
Seifalmasy 01-04-05, 01:54 AM	Thanks for the post... The PHB describes chain as the weight hanging off the shoulders, though the picture of the elf in her chain and your description suggest otherwise. I guess it'd be akward to change chain's armor check penalty for different particular skills.
Draco Strang 01-04-05, 02:09 AM	The fluff value is appreciable... But as far as is written, cartwheels and handstands (tumble) is still easier in a mithral breastplate then elven chain; it has less of a check penalty. That's exactly what I'm contesting. How is it easier to move in a rigid plate than a finely woven, interlocking mesh that moves and bends (to a degree) with you? I'm an armourer in my spare time, turning out basic pieces for several SCA guys I know, and have knit a serious amount of maille in my time, as well as making a few plate pieces.
Count Arioch the 28th 01-04-05, 02:12 AM	It isn't. wotc made the rules without even doing any research at all.
Draco Strang 01-04-05, 07:49 AM	Thank you Count Arioch. With support, I can now rest my case.
Thelon Fairblade 01-04-05, 08:07 AM	IMC, "Elven Chain" is a mithril Chain Shirt, not mithril Chainmail.
mvincent 01-04-05, 12:19 PM	IMC, "Elven Chain" is a mithril Chain Shirt, not mithril Chainmail.Ditto. I couldn't imagine anyone but a poor NPC using actual "chainmail" instead of a breastplate, but "chain shirt" armor is very common, and most appropriate for real characters. Kinda funny, considering D&D originated from "Chainmail" (the game).
Leibel 01-04-05, 01:07 PM	Totally agree about Chain Shirt/Breast Plate/Full Plate making all other armor look bad by comparision. About the whole moving in armor thing - in plain old earth steel a middle age knight could do cartwheels in full plate. Think about it - armor had to be functional in battle and not just look good. Not that one could do gymnastics in armor but it had to functional.
Seifalmasy 01-04-05, 03:54 PM	Would it make sense to flip the check penalty of the breastplate and chainmail? Breastplate becomes a little more combat-oriented and a little less skill-oriented, and the other way around for chain. Remember that (as described), the breastplate uses leather around the joints and legs, as well as distributing weight better across the body, so its not a rigid piece of plate (splint mail). This somewhat penalizes really high-dex rogues and rangers though... Alternatively just re-write elven chain to use the stats of chain shirt (mithral shirt already in the DMG as is), or use the stats of breastplate (so its useful, but leave it chain for role-play/descriptive purposes). I agree mostly with what has been said, just trying to find a way to get the rules to fit the situation. And wondering why they're that way in the first place (what was going on inside WotC's head).
Draco Strang 01-04-05, 06:12 PM	Totally agree about Chain Shirt/Breast Plate/Full Plate making all other armor look bad by comparision. About the whole moving in armor thing - in plain old earth steel a middle age knight could do cartwheels in full plate. Think about it - armor had to be functional in battle and not just look good. Not that one could do gymnastics in armor but it had to functional. Oh, this is completely true. Knights could and did frequently swim in their armor, climb walls, jump onto horses, and the like. However, when we think in terms of "breastplate" for DnD, it's a chest piece, and a backpiece, much like a cuirasse. It's not articulated though, like a set of fullplate would be. That stuff is hinged and strapped to move with the wearer. And what I'm trying to say, is why would a rogue (or anyone whose main focus is stealth and movement, and a lower check penalty) want a big piece of solid metal just chilling on their chest? It clangs and goes bump in the night. You can muffle maille, and it's quieter to begin with, not to mention easier to move in. I agree that the stats for a breastplate/maille shirt are a tick broken, and should maybe even be reversed.
WhiteHarness 01-04-05, 06:34 PM	I'm afraid I have to take issue with one tiny part of Endymnion's post. In my experience, it is mail whose weight hangs from the shoulders, while that of a breastplate/cuirass will be more evenly distributed between waist and shoulders. All I can conclude is that you were wearing a poorly-fitting breastplate... Just to demonstrate that I know whereof I speak, here are some photos of my own personal full plate harness, followed by a few of just the cuirass: http://www.mediumaevum.com/josh/ArmorbyRalph%20045.jpg http://www.mediumaevum.com/josh/AA1.jpg http://www.mediumaevum.com/josh/joshcuirass1.jpg http://www.mediumaevum.com/josh/joshcuirass3.jpg http://www.mediumaevum.com/josh/joshcuirass4.jpg Note that the cuirass is made in two pieces; this affords me excellent flexibility. I paid a lot in order to make sure the thing fit me like a glove, and it fits so well, in fact, that I really don't need to fasten the straps over the shoulders, the buckles and hinges at the waist hold the thing sufficiently tight that it can function just fine with only those holding it closed. It weighs about twenty pounds, and is constructed of 14 and 16 gauge steel. I can indeed turn cartwheels and engage in some light tumbling while wearing it, but performing those in a mail shirt would still be easier. That said, the very flexibility of mail makes it change its center of gravity as you move about quickly in it, sometimes unexpectedly. The breastplate is easier to fight in.
Kintara 01-04-05, 06:52 PM	Note that the cuirass is made in two pieces; this affords me excellent flexibility. I paid a lot in order to make sure the thing fit me like a glove, and it fits so well, in fact, that I really don't need to fasten the straps over the shoulders, the buckles and hinges at the waist hold the thing sufficiently tight that it can function just fine with only those holding it closed. It weighs about twenty pounds, and is constructed of 14 and 16 gauge steel. I can indeed turn cartwheels and engage in some light tumbling while wearing it, but performing those in a mail shirt would still be easier. That said, the very flexibility of mail makes it change its centor of gravity as you move about quickly in it, sometimes unexpectedly. The breastplate is easier to fight in.Yes, and chainmail is more extensive than a shirt.
StevenO 01-04-05, 08:09 PM	IMC, "Elven Chain" is a mithril Chain Shirt, not mithril Chainmail. I'd agree with this this idea especially if you use the 2e idea that elven chain could easily be worn under clothing. I consider a mithral breastplate to be "elven plate" because it would slow an elf down. I have a hard time accepting mithral chainmail because a masterwork breastplate already gives a character most of the advanges at a cost savings and if your doing it for the reduce ASF your going to spend the extra 50gp to get it as low as possible.
Seifalmasy 01-04-05, 09:30 PM	So anyway, back on topic, though thanks to all the varied opinions of people with real experience. I suppose its difficult to compare what you've got with what Wizards intended with what medieval knights wore with what exists in the fantasy world, so a little clashing of opinions is healthy. General consensus is there's no in-game reason for a PC to take chainmail over breastplate as written (and perhaps change elven chain to something to make it not simply inferior to a mithral breastplate)?
sjogren 01-05-05, 04:24 AM	But you're right, for pure crunch reasons, there are only 3 suits of armor you should ever wear. Chain shirt, Breastplate, or Full Plate. Everything else is sub-par by comparison. Actually, I could see the point of using banded mail instead of full plate, it can be donned faster and you don't need help doing it... Of course, that's moot once you can afford a Called full plate...
D'Nabre 01-05-05, 02:44 PM	Elven Chain in the DMG is just plain mithril chainmail right? (Has the same bonuses/cost as it at least). The armor table is all screwed up really. A lot of it is based on the idea that more expensive armor is better (more protection, less penalites) than cheaper armor. Which (ignoring the specific armors and numbers) makes sense in a fantasy setting. Why would someone wear chainmail over breastplate? Because they can't afford the breastplate. The thing that breaks it is that gold on the scale of armor prices is insignifcant to any PC beyond 1-2nd level. It's rare for me to see any PC use heavy armor, all the penalties for speed, armor check, dex, and the heftier price tag (especially for special materials) just makes it unattractive.
lukelightning 01-05-05, 03:01 PM	Well, when you think about it, most heroes in fantasy literature don't go around in heavy armor. It's rare for me to see any PC use heavy armor, all the penalties for speed, armor check, dex, and the heftier price tag (especially for special materials) just makes it unattractive.
Waylander 01-05-05, 03:19 PM	Hope to see these armor ratings fixed in 4.0 (after 10 years or something.)
spasheridan 01-05-05, 04:50 PM	In my ideal world I would increase the AC bonus of all medium armor by +1, increase the AC bonus of all heavy armor by +2, and increase the shield bonus of all shields by +1 (not the buckler). This would do nothing, of course, to change the wacky values of chain and breastplates, but it would make armor other than a chain shirt a possible consideration. And make small shields worth something (why use one instead of a buckler?)
Kevlimin Soulaxe 01-05-05, 04:59 PM	So you can use a light off-hand weapon with no penalty and have a +1 shield bonus. Do they have the word "DUH!" in your language?