Brilliant Energy vs. Fortification. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Brilliant Energy vs. Fortification. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Draegun Fury
08-06-06, 02:03 PM Does a Brilliant Energy Weapon ignore Armor of Fortification, thus enabling the weilder to make successful Critical hits on the Defender?

Cheers.
Tony Vargas
08-06-06, 02:27 PM AFICT, Brilliant Energy weapons would bypass the armor+enhancement bonus of Fortified armor, but not thier crit-immunity.

This is based solely on the mechanics given under the descriptions of the two special abilities. Brilliant Energy says nothing about bypassing anything but armor bonuses. Fortification Says nothing about not function vs touch attacks, nor about causing the armor it's one to work vs touch attacks. (Brilliant Energy isn't exactly a touch attack, since it doesn't bypass Natural Armor, but it's at least similar).

Now, if you want to go to less mechanical language, Brilliant Energy does say that it passes through non-living matter. That would imply that it should completely bypass armor (or indeed, anything else worn, like a Robe that provides DR or whatever). OTOH, Fortification does produce a 'magical force' - which could be taken to imply a 'force effect' which could imply that it also allow armor it's placed on to work against incorporeal touch attacks and other effects that bypass armor, but not force. And, Brilliant Energy does specify bonus types that aren't gained from living things - like deflection bonuses, which are, well, generally 'magical force.'

So you could argue that Brilliant Energy should completely bypass fortified armor, or, converely, since fortified armor is re-inforced with 'magical force' (which /isn't/ matter) that force would still stop brilliant energy and thus allow the wearer to retain not only it's crit immunity but the armor's AC bonus, as well. Neither are very good arguements, but, if you want to get into the vauge sections of the descriptions, both could be made.
Lady Maedhros
08-06-06, 02:38 PM Is there official ruling somewhere on the interaction of brilliant energy and mage armor ("is made of magical force and cannot be bypassed by incorporeal creatures")?

Because that's "magical force" just like the fortification is a "magical force," so you could draw a parallel. But I'm not sure I've ever seen or heard anything one way or the other on that.
Draegun Fury
08-06-06, 02:57 PM In the above, proposed situation, I would rule that yes Brilliant Energy by-passes Mage Armor as it provides an Armor bonus.

I also don't see enough similarity between Brilliant Energ and Touch Attacks nor Brilliant Energy and Incorporeal creatures.

Using the Mage Armor as a basis is a good idea as both provide Magic Force.

Again I pose the original question as I am stumped.

I like to think that B.E. does Trump Fortification, as I tend to have a pet peeve agaisnt definites in my games, such as Hvy Fort, 100% immune to crits.

Cheers.
Titan W
08-06-06, 03:07 PM Well mage armor would be ignored and the magic argument would be ignored by the "Ignores all armor bonses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor." and the fact that raw magical energy isn't really considered living in the basic DnD environment (With some exceptions).

That said the following AC bonuses do work: Dexterity, Deflection, Dodge, Natural Armor, and "other such bonuses".

As the "Other such bonuses" is really what's in debate right now I would say that for me it ignores fortification however if a player contested this a good deal I would say that it ignored light and medium fortification (+1/+3 bonus) and not heavy (+5 bonus) due to it being a +4 bonus, however I would only do this as a comprimise and as I said would normally rule that all enhancements to the armor are ignored, as they could be considered "enhancement bonuses," however they could also be considered "other such bonuses" as they aren't specificly enhancemnet bonuses.
bondious
08-06-06, 03:59 PM I personally feel that Brilliant Energy should ONLY ignore the armor and shield bonuses and NOT the Fortification, Damage Reduction, etc. That being said, I suggest that a compromise COULD be made that Brilliant Energy cuts the Fortification bonus in half, or maybe lowers it by a set ammount (say by 20% or something).

That's my opinion, at least, since neither description states anything really supporting the "Brilliant Energy should bypass Fortification" theory.

As for Mage Armor having its full effect against Brilliant Energy, I say "no". Mage Armor is an armor bonus, straight up. Just because it's a force effect doesn't really change that, it just means that Mage Armor has the EXTRA protection against incoporeal creatures...but it's STILL an amor bonus. Also, this would lead to a lot of abuse, in my opinion, because if you allow Mage Armor to "slip by" then you'd also have to do the same for the Sheild spell AND Bracers of Armor.

Anyhow, I can see how it would be a "Grey Area" and how it could be judged either way.
Draegun Fury
08-06-06, 04:07 PM Wow, I'm actually quite surpirzed that nobody has a definitive answer for this, so far it has just been reasonings.

I guess I figured this would have been covered before.

I like the idea of reducing the Fortification by a set amount, (Probably 20%).

I guess i'll wait for more opinions though before making a ruling, or if there is an official ruling to clarify that would be nice too.

Cheers for the help guys.
Derren S.
08-06-06, 04:28 PM The definitive answer is: Unless BR says that it ignores fortification it doesn't.
Kage_no_Neko
08-06-06, 04:31 PM Straight personal view - Brilliant Energy does not in any way negate Fortification. That said I do not believe in 100% fortification.

Second note, I created a variant on Brilliant Energy called Soul Striking or something similar (I do not have my notes immediately available). It was effectively Brilliant Energy but it allowed you to hit undead and constructs in addition to living creatures. In addition you would only ever hit what you were aiming at; if you missed and hit something else the weapon just phased through it without doing any damage (you could even hit possessing creatures without harming the host). It is a +6 bonus, so I did not think it is heavily overpowered.
bondious
08-06-06, 04:32 PM The definitive answer is: Unless BR says that it ignores fortification it doesn't.

Yeah, I agree.
Dheran
08-06-06, 07:14 PM Brilliant Energy
...
A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects.
... Fortification
This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. There isn't anything in the Brilliant Energy description about it working against force effects. It specifically doesn't work against deflection bonuses, which are force effects. So I don't see any reason that Brilliant Energy would bypass armor with Fortification, but it's not 100% clear. What is 100% clear is that Brilliant Energy won't bypass Bracers of Armor with Fortification. These aren't armor (they're wondrous items), but they're allowed to carry armor enhancements (Arms and Equipment Guide, sidebar on page 130). A Brilliant Energy weapon might bypass armor with Fortification, but that doesn't include Bracers of Armor despite the name.

Go monks!
RavenDrake
08-06-06, 07:56 PM Actually, no Dheran, I believe you're wrong. Bracers of Armour, despite how they do it, provide an armour bonus to AC. Brilliant energy specifically states that ignores Armour and Shield bonuses to AC. That means that both the Mage Armour spell and Bracers of Armour are ineffective as they both provide an Armour bonus to AC. Now, you can houserule that because they're a force effect they're immune, but by RAW Brilliant Energy ignores all Armour bonuses.

On the Fortification front, the armour produces a magical protective energy that shields the wearer from some or all of the effects of critical hits and sneak attacks. Since this has nothing to do with Armour or Shield bonuses, then Brilliant Energy weapons will still land sneak attacks and critical hits against a Fortified suit of armour with the same percentile chance of negation as any other weapon.
Draegun Fury
08-07-06, 09:31 AM The definitive answer is: Unless BR says that it ignores fortification it doesn't.

Firstly what is BR is it short for Brilliant Energy?

Secondly, I've been going through all the Force spells and so far Brilliant Energy would pass through all of them even Wall of Force. Shield creates a Pure Force effect that provides a SHIELD bonus, thus Brilliant Energy passes through it.

Armor of Fortification makes small planes of force that cover places like the joints and groin of the armor, it does not grant the User a Deflection Bonus it simply reinforces the ARMOUR bonus provided.

In all the Spells utilizing FORCE nowhere have I seen it grant a DEFLECTION bonus, it almost always grants an Armor or Shield bonus, both of which are bypassable by Brilliant Energy.

I'm inclined to say that since Fortification utilizes Magical FORCE to enhance its ARMOR, and that Brilliant Energy bypasses AMROR and FORCE, it ignores the critical failure chance provided by the ARMOR.

Cheers.
bitnine
08-07-06, 09:52 AM This particular question was actually asked way back in the temporary 3.5 boards.

The fortification enchantment grants you the ability to negate criticals, like the fire resistance enchantment grants you fire resistance. Brilliant energy does not take away that granted ability, it just bypasses the armor's bonus. Similarly, a touch attack fire ray doesn't circumvent your fire resistance. Or ,if using a heavy fortification-enchanted buckler, someone using Pin Shield still can't sneak attack you.

The abilities are granted to the wearer of the particular items, so attacks that circumnavigate the particular items do not bypass those abilities.
Tony Vargas
08-07-06, 01:14 PM Brilliant Energy bypasses AMROR and FORCE.Actually, Brilliant Energy says that it passes through non-living matter. Force, though not living, is also not matter.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Draegun Fury 08-06-06, 02:03 PM	Does a Brilliant Energy Weapon ignore Armor of Fortification, thus enabling the weilder to make successful Critical hits on the Defender? Cheers.
Tony Vargas 08-06-06, 02:27 PM	AFICT, Brilliant Energy weapons would bypass the armor+enhancement bonus of Fortified armor, but not thier crit-immunity. This is based solely on the mechanics given under the descriptions of the two special abilities. Brilliant Energy says nothing about bypassing anything but armor bonuses. Fortification Says nothing about not function vs touch attacks, nor about causing the armor it's one to work vs touch attacks. (Brilliant Energy isn't exactly a touch attack, since it doesn't bypass Natural Armor, but it's at least similar). Now, if you want to go to less mechanical language, Brilliant Energy does say that it passes through non-living matter. That would imply that it should completely bypass armor (or indeed, anything else worn, like a Robe that provides DR or whatever). OTOH, Fortification does produce a 'magical force' - which could be taken to imply a 'force effect' which could imply that it also allow armor it's placed on to work against incorporeal touch attacks and other effects that bypass armor, but not force. And, Brilliant Energy does specify bonus types that aren't gained from living things - like deflection bonuses, which are, well, generally 'magical force.' So you could argue that Brilliant Energy should completely bypass fortified armor, or, converely, since fortified armor is re-inforced with 'magical force' (which /isn't/ matter) that force would still stop brilliant energy and thus allow the wearer to retain not only it's crit immunity but the armor's AC bonus, as well. Neither are very good arguements, but, if you want to get into the vauge sections of the descriptions, both could be made.
Lady Maedhros 08-06-06, 02:38 PM	Is there official ruling somewhere on the interaction of brilliant energy and mage armor ("is made of magical force and cannot be bypassed by incorporeal creatures")? Because that's "magical force" just like the fortification is a "magical force," so you could draw a parallel. But I'm not sure I've ever seen or heard anything one way or the other on that.
Draegun Fury 08-06-06, 02:57 PM	In the above, proposed situation, I would rule that yes Brilliant Energy by-passes Mage Armor as it provides an Armor bonus. I also don't see enough similarity between Brilliant Energ and Touch Attacks nor Brilliant Energy and Incorporeal creatures. Using the Mage Armor as a basis is a good idea as both provide Magic Force. Again I pose the original question as I am stumped. I like to think that B.E. does Trump Fortification, as I tend to have a pet peeve agaisnt definites in my games, such as Hvy Fort, 100% immune to crits. Cheers.
Titan W 08-06-06, 03:07 PM	Well mage armor would be ignored and the magic argument would be ignored by the "Ignores all armor bonses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor." and the fact that raw magical energy isn't really considered living in the basic DnD environment (With some exceptions). That said the following AC bonuses do work: Dexterity, Deflection, Dodge, Natural Armor, and "other such bonuses". As the "Other such bonuses" is really what's in debate right now I would say that for me it ignores fortification however if a player contested this a good deal I would say that it ignored light and medium fortification (+1/+3 bonus) and not heavy (+5 bonus) due to it being a +4 bonus, however I would only do this as a comprimise and as I said would normally rule that all enhancements to the armor are ignored, as they could be considered "enhancement bonuses," however they could also be considered "other such bonuses" as they aren't specificly enhancemnet bonuses.
bondious 08-06-06, 03:59 PM	I personally feel that Brilliant Energy should ONLY ignore the armor and shield bonuses and NOT the Fortification, Damage Reduction, etc. That being said, I suggest that a compromise COULD be made that Brilliant Energy cuts the Fortification bonus in half, or maybe lowers it by a set ammount (say by 20% or something). That's my opinion, at least, since neither description states anything really supporting the "Brilliant Energy should bypass Fortification" theory. As for Mage Armor having its full effect against Brilliant Energy, I say "no". Mage Armor is an armor bonus, straight up. Just because it's a force effect doesn't really change that, it just means that Mage Armor has the EXTRA protection against incoporeal creatures...but it's STILL an amor bonus. Also, this would lead to a lot of abuse, in my opinion, because if you allow Mage Armor to "slip by" then you'd also have to do the same for the Sheild spell AND Bracers of Armor. Anyhow, I can see how it would be a "Grey Area" and how it could be judged either way.
Draegun Fury 08-06-06, 04:07 PM	Wow, I'm actually quite surpirzed that nobody has a definitive answer for this, so far it has just been reasonings. I guess I figured this would have been covered before. I like the idea of reducing the Fortification by a set amount, (Probably 20%). I guess i'll wait for more opinions though before making a ruling, or if there is an official ruling to clarify that would be nice too. Cheers for the help guys.
Derren S. 08-06-06, 04:28 PM	The definitive answer is: Unless BR says that it ignores fortification it doesn't.
Kage_no_Neko 08-06-06, 04:31 PM	Straight personal view - Brilliant Energy does not in any way negate Fortification. That said I do not believe in 100% fortification. Second note, I created a variant on Brilliant Energy called Soul Striking or something similar (I do not have my notes immediately available). It was effectively Brilliant Energy but it allowed you to hit undead and constructs in addition to living creatures. In addition you would only ever hit what you were aiming at; if you missed and hit something else the weapon just phased through it without doing any damage (you could even hit possessing creatures without harming the host). It is a +6 bonus, so I did not think it is heavily overpowered.
bondious 08-06-06, 04:32 PM	The definitive answer is: Unless BR says that it ignores fortification it doesn't. Yeah, I agree.
Dheran 08-06-06, 07:14 PM	Brilliant Energy ... A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. ... Fortification This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. There isn't anything in the Brilliant Energy description about it working against force effects. It specifically doesn't work against deflection bonuses, which are force effects. So I don't see any reason that Brilliant Energy would bypass armor with Fortification, but it's not 100% clear. What is 100% clear is that Brilliant Energy won't bypass Bracers of Armor with Fortification. These aren't armor (they're wondrous items), but they're allowed to carry armor enhancements (Arms and Equipment Guide, sidebar on page 130). A Brilliant Energy weapon might bypass armor with Fortification, but that doesn't include Bracers of Armor despite the name. Go monks!
RavenDrake 08-06-06, 07:56 PM	Actually, no Dheran, I believe you're wrong. Bracers of Armour, despite how they do it, provide an armour bonus to AC. Brilliant energy specifically states that ignores Armour and Shield bonuses to AC. That means that both the Mage Armour spell and Bracers of Armour are ineffective as they both provide an Armour bonus to AC. Now, you can houserule that because they're a force effect they're immune, but by RAW Brilliant Energy ignores all Armour bonuses. On the Fortification front, the armour produces a magical protective energy that shields the wearer from some or all of the effects of critical hits and sneak attacks. Since this has nothing to do with Armour or Shield bonuses, then Brilliant Energy weapons will still land sneak attacks and critical hits against a Fortified suit of armour with the same percentile chance of negation as any other weapon.
Draegun Fury 08-07-06, 09:31 AM	The definitive answer is: Unless BR says that it ignores fortification it doesn't. Firstly what is BR is it short for Brilliant Energy? Secondly, I've been going through all the Force spells and so far Brilliant Energy would pass through all of them even Wall of Force. Shield creates a Pure Force effect that provides a SHIELD bonus, thus Brilliant Energy passes through it. Armor of Fortification makes small planes of force that cover places like the joints and groin of the armor, it does not grant the User a Deflection Bonus it simply reinforces the ARMOUR bonus provided. In all the Spells utilizing FORCE nowhere have I seen it grant a DEFLECTION bonus, it almost always grants an Armor or Shield bonus, both of which are bypassable by Brilliant Energy. I'm inclined to say that since Fortification utilizes Magical FORCE to enhance its ARMOR, and that Brilliant Energy bypasses AMROR and FORCE, it ignores the critical failure chance provided by the ARMOR. Cheers.
bitnine 08-07-06, 09:52 AM	This particular question was actually asked way back in the temporary 3.5 boards. The fortification enchantment grants you the ability to negate criticals, like the fire resistance enchantment grants you fire resistance. Brilliant energy does not take away that granted ability, it just bypasses the armor's bonus. Similarly, a touch attack fire ray doesn't circumvent your fire resistance. Or ,if using a heavy fortification-enchanted buckler, someone using Pin Shield still can't sneak attack you. The abilities are granted to the wearer of the particular items, so attacks that circumnavigate the particular items do not bypass those abilities.
Tony Vargas 08-07-06, 01:14 PM	Brilliant Energy bypasses AMROR and FORCE.Actually, Brilliant Energy says that it passes through non-living matter. Force, though not living, is also not matter.