Brilliant Energy vs. Heavy Fortification [Archive] - Wizards Community

Brilliant Energy vs. Heavy Fortification [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aralith
03-27-07, 10:28 AM Does the brilliant energy effect bypass the protection of heavy fortification and allow for sneak attack damage to apply?

The current arguement at our table is yes it should bypass all the properties associated with the armor since is passes through it. While the other side says it will bypass armor and enhancement bonus on the armor but will not negate any other special effect bestowed by the armor.
paladin2019
03-27-07, 10:33 AM Wow, a genuine grey area. I would be in the bypass the armor, bypass its special abilities camp, but I'm more than willing to listen to counterpoints.
tarkin
03-27-07, 11:14 AM No. It does NOT bypass.

Read the rules (If you had done so, you would know you were wrong). You seem to think that the armor is what protects you from the criticals, and that therefore brilliant energy, which ignores the armor, will ignore the critical negation.That is not true.

This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.

The armor does not phyiscally protect against the criticals. Instead it creates a magical force that prevents criticals (and sneak attacks) from happening.

Brilliant does not ignore magical forces, it just ignores non-living matter.

Claiming it ignores Heavy Fortification makes no more sense then claiming it ignores other magical properties of the armor, such as fire resistance.

If you had a +1 flaming brilliant sword, and attacked someonewearing +1 Heavy Fortification Fire Resistant armor, then they still get resistant against fire and the still get protected against criticals.

(Note, this question does keep coming up on the boards, but that just means most people don't actually bother to read the rules.)
Aralith
03-27-07, 01:01 PM No. It does NOT bypass.

Read the rules (If you had done so, you would know you were wrong). You seem to think that the armor is what protects you from the criticals, and that therefore brilliant energy, which ignores the armor, will ignore the critical negation.That is not true.

The armor does not phyiscally protect against the criticals. Instead it creates a magical force that prevents criticals (and sneak attacks) from happening.

Brilliant does not ignore magical forces, it just ignores non-living matter.

Claiming it ignores Heavy Fortification makes no more sense then claiming it ignores other magical properties of the armor, such as fire resistance.

If you had a +1 flaming brilliant sword, and attacked someonewearing +1 Heavy Fortification Fire Resistant armor, then they still get resistant against fire and the still get protected against criticals.

(Note, this question does keep coming up on the boards, but that just means most people don't actually bother to read the rules.)

I understand this but the area of concern is

A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor.

It bypasses the enhancement bonuses to that armor. If the enhancement bonus is a magical effect, how is the fortification magical force any different?
Starman IX
03-27-07, 01:06 PM I understand this but the area of concern is

It bypasses the enhancement bonuses to that armor. If the enhancement bonus is a magical effect, how is the fortification magical force any different?

I think the argument lies in the fact that it creates a force effect around the body parts that would be needed to hit during a critical/sneak attack. A force effect could easily be ruled 'not matter'.
jaelis
03-27-07, 01:17 PM [B]
Claiming it ignores Heavy Fortification makes no more sense then claiming it ignores other magical properties of the armor, such as fire resistance.

If you had a +1 flaming brilliant sword, and attacked someonewearing +1 Heavy Fortification Fire Resistant armor, then they still get resistant against fire and the still get protected against criticals.

I agree that these are essentially the same question, and that the fire resistance one is maybe a little clearer. But I wouldn't base my answer to either on the (potentially) flavor text of how the armor works.

Fortunately, and unambiguous answer is available. As Aralith quotes, BE ignores armor and shield bonuses to AC. Is fire resistance or heavy fortification an armor bonus? Well, do you add it to your AC? No. Then it's not a bonus and is not ignored.
draconic_swine
03-27-07, 01:30 PM Agreed 100% with tarkin and jaelis. Fortification is neither part of the physical armour, the armour bonus, or the enhancement bonus. It is a completely separate magical effect.
TheOinodaemon
03-27-07, 01:36 PM Since the armor generates a field around vital organs amd doesn't actually change itself physically to ward of the attacks, I would rule that the armor works against brilliant energy weapons.

In short tarkin and jaelis are right.
ZiggZagg
03-27-07, 01:37 PM And once again, the asnwer put forth from Tarkin, while correct, is laced with uncalled for shots and arrogance, but no one calls him on it because of his "well known and respected board member status".

As for the issue, this just seems to be another one of those ambiguous areas that it depends on how you read it. Brilliant Energy bypasses armor and enhancement bonus. Depending on your reading, you might rule that since the Fortification property is actually added to the effective enhancement bonus of the armor, that it could be negated, unlike resistances that only add to the price. It is all in your interpretations.
mvincent
03-27-07, 02:01 PM And once again, the asnwer put forth from Tarkin, while correct, is laced with uncalled for shots and arrogance, but no one calls him on it because of his "well known and respected board member status".Heh. tarkin is indeed well known, but likely not for the reasons you might think. Indeed, his arrogance and incorrect answers are what first made me so involved in these boards. Eventually, in an effort to constantly correct his (prolific) posts, I have learned much about the rules.

tarkin is what he is, but I appreciate his presence here possibly more than you could ever imagine. With the right perspective (i.e. as a BBEG that can provide easy victories), you can come to appreciate him also.
jaelis
03-27-07, 03:40 PM since the Fortification property is actually added to the effective enhancement bonus of the armor, that it could be negated,

While a DM can of course interpret as desired, the above statement isn't really true. The cost of the fortification property is calculated as if it were an enhancement bonus. But in no sense does it add to the actual effective enhancement bonus of the armor. A +1 fortification breastplate has a +1 enhancement bonus, and that is it.
mvincent
03-27-07, 03:52 PM Brilliant does not ignore magical forcesThat appears to be incorrect. Brilliant Energy bypasses magical forces like mage armor, bracers of armor, ring of force shield and the shield spell.

Fairly in-depth (and recent) discussions on this are available here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11687535), here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=744049) and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10954455)

Brilliant energy weapons seem to require a bit of DM adjudication even under the best of circumstances. For instance:
1) Can a Brilliant Energy weapon sunder or disarm another weapon? (using the strict RAW interpretations above, it would appear that Brilliant Energy weapons are treated like any other weapon in this respect since the Brilliant Energy rules make no special allowances in this areas).
2) Can a Brilliant Energy weapon be sundered or disarmed by a normal weapon?
3) What if you had an armor or shield bonus from living material (say, an ogre using two-weapon defense while wielding gnomes).
4) Does DR from armor count?
5) How does Brilliant Energy interact with a tower shield
6) Can you attack someone blindly through full cover (say, with a Brilliant Energy spiked chain?)
etc.

fwiw: I use tarkin's ruling, but (as evidenced by the plethora of threads about this), it's not as clear as he thinks, so his rudeness seems unwarranted.
Dheran
03-27-07, 03:53 PM If you need more convincing that Brilliant Energy doesn't bypass Fortification, consider this: Fortification doesn't have to be associated with armor at all. As explained in Arms and Equipment Guide (page 130), Bracers of Armor (wondrous items, not armor) can have Heavy Fortification added. Also the Gemstone of Fortification (Draconomicon, page 83) can give you Heavy Fortification for 35,000 gp with no armor (not even an armor bonus).
mvincent
03-27-07, 04:06 PM As explained in Arms and Equipment GuideNote: that is for 3.0 (it may still be valid for 3.5, but I'm not completely positive in this instance).

Bracers of Armor (wondrous items, not armor) can have Heavy Fortification added. As mentioned above; Brilliant energy normally bypasses the magical, 'force-field"-like protection offered by Bracers of armor.

Also the Gemstone of Fortification (Draconomicon, page 83) can give you Heavy Fortification for 35,000 gp with no armor (not even an armor bonus).That is an excellent find.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aralith 03-27-07, 10:28 AM	Does the brilliant energy effect bypass the protection of heavy fortification and allow for sneak attack damage to apply? The current arguement at our table is yes it should bypass all the properties associated with the armor since is passes through it. While the other side says it will bypass armor and enhancement bonus on the armor but will not negate any other special effect bestowed by the armor.
paladin2019 03-27-07, 10:33 AM	Wow, a genuine grey area. I would be in the bypass the armor, bypass its special abilities camp, but I'm more than willing to listen to counterpoints.
tarkin 03-27-07, 11:14 AM	No. It does NOT bypass. Read the rules (If you had done so, you would know you were wrong). You seem to think that the armor is what protects you from the criticals, and that therefore brilliant energy, which ignores the armor, will ignore the critical negation.That is not true. This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. The armor does not phyiscally protect against the criticals. Instead it creates a magical force that prevents criticals (and sneak attacks) from happening. Brilliant does not ignore magical forces, it just ignores non-living matter. Claiming it ignores Heavy Fortification makes no more sense then claiming it ignores other magical properties of the armor, such as fire resistance. If you had a +1 flaming brilliant sword, and attacked someonewearing +1 Heavy Fortification Fire Resistant armor, then they still get resistant against fire and the still get protected against criticals. (Note, this question does keep coming up on the boards, but that just means most people don't actually bother to read the rules.)
Aralith 03-27-07, 01:01 PM	No. It does NOT bypass. Read the rules (If you had done so, you would know you were wrong). You seem to think that the armor is what protects you from the criticals, and that therefore brilliant energy, which ignores the armor, will ignore the critical negation.That is not true. The armor does not phyiscally protect against the criticals. Instead it creates a magical force that prevents criticals (and sneak attacks) from happening. Brilliant does not ignore magical forces, it just ignores non-living matter. Claiming it ignores Heavy Fortification makes no more sense then claiming it ignores other magical properties of the armor, such as fire resistance. If you had a +1 flaming brilliant sword, and attacked someonewearing +1 Heavy Fortification Fire Resistant armor, then they still get resistant against fire and the still get protected against criticals. (Note, this question does keep coming up on the boards, but that just means most people don't actually bother to read the rules.) I understand this but the area of concern is A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. It bypasses the enhancement bonuses to that armor. If the enhancement bonus is a magical effect, how is the fortification magical force any different?
Starman IX 03-27-07, 01:06 PM	I understand this but the area of concern is It bypasses the enhancement bonuses to that armor. If the enhancement bonus is a magical effect, how is the fortification magical force any different? I think the argument lies in the fact that it creates a force effect around the body parts that would be needed to hit during a critical/sneak attack. A force effect could easily be ruled 'not matter'.
jaelis 03-27-07, 01:17 PM	[B] Claiming it ignores Heavy Fortification makes no more sense then claiming it ignores other magical properties of the armor, such as fire resistance. If you had a +1 flaming brilliant sword, and attacked someonewearing +1 Heavy Fortification Fire Resistant armor, then they still get resistant against fire and the still get protected against criticals. I agree that these are essentially the same question, and that the fire resistance one is maybe a little clearer. But I wouldn't base my answer to either on the (potentially) flavor text of how the armor works. Fortunately, and unambiguous answer is available. As Aralith quotes, BE ignores armor and shield bonuses to AC. Is fire resistance or heavy fortification an armor bonus? Well, do you add it to your AC? No. Then it's not a bonus and is not ignored.
draconic_swine 03-27-07, 01:30 PM	Agreed 100% with tarkin and jaelis. Fortification is neither part of the physical armour, the armour bonus, or the enhancement bonus. It is a completely separate magical effect.
TheOinodaemon 03-27-07, 01:36 PM	Since the armor generates a field around vital organs amd doesn't actually change itself physically to ward of the attacks, I would rule that the armor works against brilliant energy weapons. In short tarkin and jaelis are right.
ZiggZagg 03-27-07, 01:37 PM	And once again, the asnwer put forth from Tarkin, while correct, is laced with uncalled for shots and arrogance, but no one calls him on it because of his "well known and respected board member status". As for the issue, this just seems to be another one of those ambiguous areas that it depends on how you read it. Brilliant Energy bypasses armor and enhancement bonus. Depending on your reading, you might rule that since the Fortification property is actually added to the effective enhancement bonus of the armor, that it could be negated, unlike resistances that only add to the price. It is all in your interpretations.
mvincent 03-27-07, 02:01 PM	And once again, the asnwer put forth from Tarkin, while correct, is laced with uncalled for shots and arrogance, but no one calls him on it because of his "well known and respected board member status".Heh. tarkin is indeed well known, but likely not for the reasons you might think. Indeed, his arrogance and incorrect answers are what first made me so involved in these boards. Eventually, in an effort to constantly correct his (prolific) posts, I have learned much about the rules. tarkin is what he is, but I appreciate his presence here possibly more than you could ever imagine. With the right perspective (i.e. as a BBEG that can provide easy victories), you can come to appreciate him also.
jaelis 03-27-07, 03:40 PM	since the Fortification property is actually added to the effective enhancement bonus of the armor, that it could be negated, While a DM can of course interpret as desired, the above statement isn't really true. The cost of the fortification property is calculated as if it were an enhancement bonus. But in no sense does it add to the actual effective enhancement bonus of the armor. A +1 fortification breastplate has a +1 enhancement bonus, and that is it.
mvincent 03-27-07, 03:52 PM	Brilliant does not ignore magical forcesThat appears to be incorrect. Brilliant Energy bypasses magical forces like mage armor, bracers of armor, ring of force shield and the shield spell. Fairly in-depth (and recent) discussions on this are available here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11687535), here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=744049) and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10954455) Brilliant energy weapons seem to require a bit of DM adjudication even under the best of circumstances. For instance: 1) Can a Brilliant Energy weapon sunder or disarm another weapon? (using the strict RAW interpretations above, it would appear that Brilliant Energy weapons are treated like any other weapon in this respect since the Brilliant Energy rules make no special allowances in this areas). 2) Can a Brilliant Energy weapon be sundered or disarmed by a normal weapon? 3) What if you had an armor or shield bonus from living material (say, an ogre using two-weapon defense while wielding gnomes). 4) Does DR from armor count? 5) How does Brilliant Energy interact with a tower shield 6) Can you attack someone blindly through full cover (say, with a Brilliant Energy spiked chain?) etc. fwiw: I use tarkin's ruling, but (as evidenced by the plethora of threads about this), it's not as clear as he thinks, so his rudeness seems unwarranted.
Dheran 03-27-07, 03:53 PM	If you need more convincing that Brilliant Energy doesn't bypass Fortification, consider this: Fortification doesn't have to be associated with armor at all. As explained in Arms and Equipment Guide (page 130), Bracers of Armor (wondrous items, not armor) can have Heavy Fortification added. Also the Gemstone of Fortification (Draconomicon, page 83) can give you Heavy Fortification for 35,000 gp with no armor (not even an armor bonus).
mvincent 03-27-07, 04:06 PM	As explained in Arms and Equipment GuideNote: that is for 3.0 (it may still be valid for 3.5, but I'm not completely positive in this instance). Bracers of Armor (wondrous items, not armor) can have Heavy Fortification added. As mentioned above; Brilliant energy normally bypasses the magical, 'force-field"-like protection offered by Bracers of armor. Also the Gemstone of Fortification (Draconomicon, page 83) can give you Heavy Fortification for 35,000 gp with no armor (not even an armor bonus).That is an excellent find.