Brilliant Energy weapon and Heavy Fortification = ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Brilliant Energy weapon and Heavy Fortification = ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Heron_Marked_Blade
12-19-06, 09:51 AM Is a brilliant energy weapon capable if making a critical strike against a target wearing armor of heavy fortification?

The armor special ability "produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively," but if an armor is bypassed by a weapon (such as a brilliant energy one), are the armor's special abilities bypassed as well? The +5 enhancement bonus on the armor is bypassed by the weapon, and I'd think the enhancement bonus qualifies as a "magical force".

Thoughts?
Radijs
12-19-06, 10:13 AM I'd say the crit does no extra damage. The brilliant energy weapon ignores the armor bonus granted by the armor but not the special abilities.
vardock
12-19-06, 10:24 AM I would say fortification is not applied. fortification is a mundane modification to armor, it protects vital areas better. and brillian energy weapons ignore armor altogether, so the protection is bypassed.
Dalthbar
12-19-06, 10:25 AM Exactly, it ignores the physical armor, but the fortification ability is a magical quality. Brilliant energy doesn't bypass magical qualities of items.
Dalthbar
12-19-06, 10:27 AM I would say fortification is not applied. fortification is a mundane modification to armor, it protects vital areas better. and brillian energy weapons ignore armor altogether, so the protection is bypassed.

Per the SRD:
This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.
The effect is clearly not "mundane".
draconic_swine
12-19-06, 10:28 AM Since brilliant energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy) pretty clearly states that only armour and shield bonuses are bypassed, I'd have to say that foritification protects against the crit. Also, fortification (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#fortification) is stated to be a "magical" force.

Also, how is fortification, a magical enhancement that is applied to armour, a mundane modification?
Heron_Marked_Blade
12-19-06, 10:35 AM Does that mean the brilliant energy weapon does not bypass the +5 enhancement bonus to the armor/shield? That's clearly not a mundane effect either.
Radijs
12-19-06, 10:45 AM Brilliant Energy

A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition.

Strong transmutation; CL 16th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, gaseous form, continual flame; Price +4 bonus.

It states quite specifically what the ability does and what it doesn't do. Sounds simple to me.
runestar
12-19-06, 11:13 AM Brilliant simply lets you ignore the AC granted by wearing armour, no more or less. It is stated quite clearly in its desc, so no need to go around racking your brains to try and ferret out secrets which simply don't exist...:P
Tyler Do'Urden
12-19-06, 11:44 AM fortification is a mundane modification to armor...No it damn well is not.

Strong abjuration; CL 13th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, limited wish or miracle; Price varies (see above).

I think it's officially time to add this question to the list of things we see all the time.
draconic_swine
12-19-06, 11:45 AM Does that mean the brilliant energy weapon does not bypass the +5 enhancement bonus to the armor/shield? That's clearly not a mundane effect either.

Brilliant energy bypasses the enhancements bonuses to armour and shields as well. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy):

Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor.
Worloch
12-19-06, 11:55 AM Don't think about it too hard.

You know what Brilliant Energy does.

You know what Heavy Fortification does.

There is no contradiction by the rules, and therefor no problem to discuss.
mvincent
12-19-06, 12:39 PM No it damn well is not.Damn Tyler... no need to cuss ;)(especially since fortification's lack of mundanity might technically be moot for this discussion, as Brilliant Energy bypasses things like mage armor, bracers of armor, ring of force shield and the shield spell).

I think it's officially time to add this question to the list of things we see all the time.A fairly in-depth (and recent) discussion on this is available here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=744049).

Everyone that posted above is technically (by strict RAW) correct, but still; brilliant energy weapons seem to require a bit of DM adjudication even under the best of circumstances. For instance:
1) Can a Brilliant Energy weapon sunder or disarm another weapon? (using the strict RAW interpretations above, it would appear that Brilliant Energy weapons are treated like any other weapon in this respect since the Brilliant Energy rules make no special allowances in this areas).
2) Can a Brilliant Energy weapon be sundered or disarmed by a normal weapon?
3) What if you had an armor or shield bonus from living material (say, an ogre using two-weapon defense while wielding gnomes).
4) Does DR from armor count?
5) How does Brilliant Energy interact with a tower shield
6) Can you attack someone blindly through full cover (say, with aBrilliant Energy spiked chain?)
etc.
Heron_Marked_Blade
12-19-06, 12:55 PM A fairly in-depth (and recent) discussion on this is available here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=744049).

Thanks for that, mvincent. That's exactly what I was looking for. I'm the guy in the +5 armor of heavy fortification, so it's in my best interests that brilliant energy weapons do NOT ignore the heavy fortification ability. :D Thanks again!
Tony Vargas
12-19-06, 12:57 PM brilliant energy weapons seem to require a bit of DM adjudication even under the best of circumstances. For instance:Most of these seem fairly clear:

1) Can a Brilliant Energy weapon sunder or disarm another weapon?The description of Brilliant Energy clearly states that they cannot affect objects - weapons are objects, so sundering is right out. Disarm might, indeed, call for adjudication, as it's at least conceptually possible to disarm someone by, say, rapping thier knuckles.

2) Can a Brilliant Energy weapon be sundered or disarmed by a normal weapon?Yes. The whole of the weapon isn't transformed into light, just the bits of it used to inflict damage, so the weapon can still be damaged or knocked from the wielder's grip.

3) What if you had an armor or shield bonus from living material (say, an ogre using two-weapon defense while wielding gnomes).I think wielding living things as weapons is the bit needing a ruling there. ;) What about brilliant energy weapons vs brilliant energy weapons, though? If you're wielding a brilliant double-sword and using TWD vs a pair of attackers wielding brilliant katana, for instance?

4) Does DR from armor count?That one is questionable. Presumably 'Invulnerability' would count, though, as a magical weapon, it'd be bypassed. OTOH, it'd be hard to justify the DR/- of adamantine, regardless of what the 'RAW' might technically say.

5) How does Brilliant Energy interact with a tower shieldWhen it's used to provide a shield bonus, it's ignored. When it's providing cover, it acts as cover.

6) Can you attack someone blindly through full cover (say, with aBrilliant Energy spiked chain?)No. Again, the whole weapon isn't 'transformed into light' just the ouchy bits, so it couldn't be thrust completely through cover.
draconic_swine
12-19-06, 04:19 PM 3) What if you had an armor or shield bonus from living material (say, an ogre using two-weapon defense while wielding gnomes).

I concur with TonyVargas's answers to everything else, but I've gotta say I highly doubt that anything RAW was ever meant to cover this scenario :rofl:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Heron_Marked_Blade 12-19-06, 09:51 AM	Is a brilliant energy weapon capable if making a critical strike against a target wearing armor of heavy fortification? The armor special ability "produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively," but if an armor is bypassed by a weapon (such as a brilliant energy one), are the armor's special abilities bypassed as well? The +5 enhancement bonus on the armor is bypassed by the weapon, and I'd think the enhancement bonus qualifies as a "magical force". Thoughts?
Radijs 12-19-06, 10:13 AM	I'd say the crit does no extra damage. The brilliant energy weapon ignores the armor bonus granted by the armor but not the special abilities.
vardock 12-19-06, 10:24 AM	I would say fortification is not applied. fortification is a mundane modification to armor, it protects vital areas better. and brillian energy weapons ignore armor altogether, so the protection is bypassed.
Dalthbar 12-19-06, 10:25 AM	Exactly, it ignores the physical armor, but the fortification ability is a magical quality. Brilliant energy doesn't bypass magical qualities of items.
Dalthbar 12-19-06, 10:27 AM	I would say fortification is not applied. fortification is a mundane modification to armor, it protects vital areas better. and brillian energy weapons ignore armor altogether, so the protection is bypassed. Per the SRD: This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. The effect is clearly not "mundane".
draconic_swine 12-19-06, 10:28 AM	Since brilliant energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy) pretty clearly states that only armour and shield bonuses are bypassed, I'd have to say that foritification protects against the crit. Also, fortification (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#fortification) is stated to be a "magical" force. Also, how is fortification, a magical enhancement that is applied to armour, a mundane modification?
Heron_Marked_Blade 12-19-06, 10:35 AM	Does that mean the brilliant energy weapon does not bypass the +5 enhancement bonus to the armor/shield? That's clearly not a mundane effect either.
Radijs 12-19-06, 10:45 AM	Brilliant Energy A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition. Strong transmutation; CL 16th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, gaseous form, continual flame; Price +4 bonus. It states quite specifically what the ability does and what it doesn't do. Sounds simple to me.
runestar 12-19-06, 11:13 AM	Brilliant simply lets you ignore the AC granted by wearing armour, no more or less. It is stated quite clearly in its desc, so no need to go around racking your brains to try and ferret out secrets which simply don't exist...:P
Tyler Do'Urden 12-19-06, 11:44 AM	fortification is a mundane modification to armor...No it damn well is not. Strong abjuration; CL 13th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, limited wish or miracle; Price varies (see above). I think it's officially time to add this question to the list of things we see all the time.
draconic_swine 12-19-06, 11:45 AM	Does that mean the brilliant energy weapon does not bypass the +5 enhancement bonus to the armor/shield? That's clearly not a mundane effect either. Brilliant energy bypasses the enhancements bonuses to armour and shields as well. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy): Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor.
Worloch 12-19-06, 11:55 AM	Don't think about it too hard. You know what Brilliant Energy does. You know what Heavy Fortification does. There is no contradiction by the rules, and therefor no problem to discuss.
mvincent 12-19-06, 12:39 PM	No it damn well is not.Damn Tyler... no need to cuss ;)(especially since fortification's lack of mundanity might technically be moot for this discussion, as Brilliant Energy bypasses things like mage armor, bracers of armor, ring of force shield and the shield spell). I think it's officially time to add this question to the list of things we see all the time.A fairly in-depth (and recent) discussion on this is available here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=744049). Everyone that posted above is technically (by strict RAW) correct, but still; brilliant energy weapons seem to require a bit of DM adjudication even under the best of circumstances. For instance: 1) Can a Brilliant Energy weapon sunder or disarm another weapon? (using the strict RAW interpretations above, it would appear that Brilliant Energy weapons are treated like any other weapon in this respect since the Brilliant Energy rules make no special allowances in this areas). 2) Can a Brilliant Energy weapon be sundered or disarmed by a normal weapon? 3) What if you had an armor or shield bonus from living material (say, an ogre using two-weapon defense while wielding gnomes). 4) Does DR from armor count? 5) How does Brilliant Energy interact with a tower shield 6) Can you attack someone blindly through full cover (say, with aBrilliant Energy spiked chain?) etc.
Heron_Marked_Blade 12-19-06, 12:55 PM	A fairly in-depth (and recent) discussion on this is available here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=744049). Thanks for that, mvincent. That's exactly what I was looking for. I'm the guy in the +5 armor of heavy fortification, so it's in my best interests that brilliant energy weapons do NOT ignore the heavy fortification ability. :D Thanks again!
Tony Vargas 12-19-06, 12:57 PM	brilliant energy weapons seem to require a bit of DM adjudication even under the best of circumstances. For instance:Most of these seem fairly clear: 1) Can a Brilliant Energy weapon sunder or disarm another weapon?The description of Brilliant Energy clearly states that they cannot affect objects - weapons are objects, so sundering is right out. Disarm might, indeed, call for adjudication, as it's at least conceptually possible to disarm someone by, say, rapping thier knuckles. 2) Can a Brilliant Energy weapon be sundered or disarmed by a normal weapon?Yes. The whole of the weapon isn't transformed into light, just the bits of it used to inflict damage, so the weapon can still be damaged or knocked from the wielder's grip. 3) What if you had an armor or shield bonus from living material (say, an ogre using two-weapon defense while wielding gnomes).I think wielding living things as weapons is the bit needing a ruling there. ;) What about brilliant energy weapons vs brilliant energy weapons, though? If you're wielding a brilliant double-sword and using TWD vs a pair of attackers wielding brilliant katana, for instance? 4) Does DR from armor count?That one is questionable. Presumably 'Invulnerability' would count, though, as a magical weapon, it'd be bypassed. OTOH, it'd be hard to justify the DR/- of adamantine, regardless of what the 'RAW' might technically say. 5) How does Brilliant Energy interact with a tower shieldWhen it's used to provide a shield bonus, it's ignored. When it's providing cover, it acts as cover. 6) Can you attack someone blindly through full cover (say, with aBrilliant Energy spiked chain?)No. Again, the whole weapon isn't 'transformed into light' just the ouchy bits, so it couldn't be thrust completely through cover.
draconic_swine 12-19-06, 04:19 PM	3) What if you had an armor or shield bonus from living material (say, an ogre using two-weapon defense while wielding gnomes). I concur with TonyVargas's answers to everything else, but I've gotta say I highly doubt that anything RAW was ever meant to cover this scenario :rofl: