Broken mast [Archive] - Wizards Community

Broken mast [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MasterRookie
03-17-06, 01:20 PM My PC owns a sailing ship, a dragon broke the main mast. They're out at sea and will need to find a port. How long will it take to replace and how much will it cost?
mvincent
03-17-06, 02:14 PM My PC owns a sailing ship, a dragon broke the main mast. They're out at sea and will need to find a port. How long will it take to replace and how much will it cost?That is up to your DM. You might be able to give him some estimates from Stormwrack or another seafaring sourcebook, but he probably has a timeline and price already in mind.

For some additional ideas on replacing a mast (for free, without a port), I recommend renting the movie "Master and Commander" (excellent movie).
MasterRookie
03-17-06, 08:54 PM I'm the DM dude.
Dalthbar
03-17-06, 08:58 PM The mast is usually the most important part of the ship and likely the most difficult to replace. It's not as easy as just getting some planks of wood to fix up a hole in the deck.

Based on that, you can decide availability and labor needed pending their exact problem.

Just pulling this out my butt, I'd say anywhere from 10-25% of the actual ship (which includes labor) and the time will totally depend on how long you want them to be in port and how available the material and labor is.

This would give you some time to line up some side adventures or plot hooks.

Get creative... perfect opportunity to kill some PCs on dry land!
CryoSilver
03-17-06, 09:33 PM Actually, they make these special parts for repairing snapped masts. They look like wide iron bands, or tubes, hinged on one side and what you do is roughly haul the mast back into place (with lines and pulleys) and snap the iron ring around the mast.

It isn't a permanent fix, but it'll hold the mast quite well. Thing is, i'm not sure when they were invented; all I know is it was earlier than 1800.

As to actualyl replacing the mast, I'd say about 5% of the cost of the ship.
Jshock_75
03-18-06, 09:52 AM Masts are made of multiple spars (like telephone ploes). A competent crew can replace and re-rig the ship in a couple of days. It's conceivable that there's already extra spars on board ship- a snapped mast wasn't uncommon even on a merchant ship, it's the sort of thing you'd expect to be on board (like spare sails, extra line, etc).
Waterhammer
03-18-06, 12:51 PM Accounts I've read indicate that a mast could be replaced in a couple of days by the crew. This assumes that appropriate wood is available. If the ship went to a port city the wood for a mast would have to be bought but the shipyard facilities might be able to finish the job in a half day. As for cost how does 5% of the ship's price sound?
mvincent
03-18-06, 05:54 PM I'm the DM dude.Well hello there MasterRookie DM dude.

It's generally easier to just make up these costs yourself (that's your job as DM), or allow the PC's an opportunity to make repairs themselves while at sea if they have appropriate skills.

However, here are some samples from various sources:
The D&D "Arms and Equipment guide (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/881590000)" says that rigging costs 20 gp per hp (a main mast will likely have 40-50 hp, depending on the ship) and require about 1 day per 125 gp to repair.

"Stormwrack (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/178670000)" gives similar times, but is sketchier on actual mast costs.

"... and a 10' pole (http://store.ironcrown.com/detail.jsp?itemId=2022&category=10099)" (I.C.E.'s equipment book) lists a simple 10' "Mast and Sail" at a cost of 25 sp (25 gp in D&D) and 4 days to make (but this is far too small for a decent sized ship).

Mongoose's classic play Book of the Sea (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/detail.php?qsID=345&qsSeries=Classic%20Play&PHPSESSID=b8ed9a2a5fa35c2abff7f61b795fc8 d0) lists initial sail propulsion costs at about 50gp per ship tonnage (the ship is probably 100+ tons), but lists a major ship repair as taking 1500gp in supplies. It's battle damage repair mechanics however are more complicated.

Swashbuckling Adventures "Ships and Sea Battles (http://www.7thsea.info/modules.php?op=modload&name=books&file=index&req=view_cat&cid=2)" does not address the issue of repairs.
Iver Gearsham
03-18-06, 08:31 PM If they have a Mage or Cleric Zippo for the cost Make Whole, Fabricate, Repair X spells can take care of it.
MasterRookie
03-19-06, 05:54 PM Well I made it cost four thousand and take two weeks. Plenty of time for a side quest or two. It is a bit different from what your saying now. But They're at the coast of a desert area so its not unlikely that wood and people qualified to work with lumber would be in short supply and thus expensive. Also the shortage of workers would mean it would take longer.
Raven Dark
03-19-06, 06:17 PM By the RAW, repairing an item costs 1/5 the items base price and requires a Craft check against the same DC it took to make the item.

Thus, repairing a sailing ship would take a Craft (shipmaking) check versus DC 20 (superior item), cost 2,000gp in raw materials, and require a hell of a long time.

I'm assuming it is because they will have to take out all of the sails and rigging to get them out of the way, remove the remains of the broken mast while keeping the rest of the ship from falling apart (masts were often the supporting backbone of many ships), aligning and inserting the new mast, securing the new mast firmly into place, and then replacing all of the sails and rigging back into their proper place.

I don't see why the OP's question had to be asked at all. It's all right there in the good book (page 71 of the v3.5 Player's Handbook).
Jshock_75
03-20-06, 03:46 PM ...(masts were often the supporting backbone of many ships...Which ships, pray tell? All the ships I've seen have the mast supported by a cleat in the deck- I've never seen one designed so it can't be replaced.
Raven Dark
03-20-06, 04:11 PM Which ships, pray tell? All the ships I've seen have the mast supported by a cleat in the deck- I've never seen one designed so it can't be replaced.

They can be replaced, it is jsut exceedingly difficult to do so.
CryoSilver
03-20-06, 09:08 PM I'd like to know exactly what kind of ship you are refering to.

Clipper ship? Schooner? Galleon? Warship?
Waterhammer
03-20-06, 09:14 PM Maybe it's one of those papyrus jobbies the Egyptians used.
CryoSilver
03-20-06, 09:23 PM A paper boat?

The "backbone"of a ship is the keel, down from which extends the keelboard, centerboard or dagger board.

The mast quite often descends down through a reinforced port in the deck, down to a lower deck or the keel, where its own weight locks it into place.
Raven Dark
03-21-06, 07:02 AM The "backbone"of a ship is the keel, down from which extends the keelboard, centerboard or dagger board.

The mast quite often descends down through a reinforced port in the deck, down to a lower deck or the keel, where its own weight locks it into place.

I know the keel is the backbone of most ships. When I said "supporting backbone" what I was trying to infer was "secondary support." I apologize if I didn't make that clearer in my initial post.
Iver Gearsham
03-21-06, 06:05 PM A paper boat?

The "backbone"of a ship is the keel, down from which extends the keelboard, centerboard or dagger board.

The mast quite often descends down through a reinforced port in the deck, down to a lower deck or the keel, where its own weight locks it into place.
Papyrus reeds dryed then woven and bound into Log like sections that make up the ship.
I don't know if they treated the reeds to slow or prevent them from sogging and rotting but they sound cheap to make so replacing them probably was not an issue.
CryoSilver
03-21-06, 06:08 PM I stand by the price of the mast being about 5% of the cost of the ship in total. Bump that up to 8% if you need to replace all the cloth.
00_Whupass
03-21-06, 06:31 PM I see the bigger question as how did your PCs get to port with a broken mast? As many other posters have stated an adequately trained crew with a few spars could replace a mast while shipboard in a few days, as a mast was absolutely essential. Without a mast and a few meters of sailcloth you're going nowhere. It sounds like you've already finished this particular segment of the adventure but if I put my PCs on a ship with a broken mast, how much it would cost to repair would be the least of my PCs problems.
Dalthbar
03-21-06, 06:38 PM ...but if I put my PCs on a ship with a broken mast, how much it would cost to repair would be the least of my PCs problems.

Sea Trolls and Sahaugin? ;)
CryoSilver
03-21-06, 06:47 PM I see the bigger question as how did your PCs get to port with a broken mast? As many other posters have stated an adequately trained crew with a few spars could replace a mast while shipboard in a few days, as a mast was absolutely essential. Without a mast and a few meters of sailcloth you're going nowhere. It sounds like you've already finished this particular segment of the adventure but if I put my PCs on a ship with a broken mast, how much it would cost to repair would be the least of my PCs problems.

Most ships of a decent size will have more than one mast;you won't move very fast, but you'll move.
00_Whupass
03-21-06, 06:52 PM Most ships of a decent size will have more than one mast;you won't move very fast, but you'll move.
I suppose he did say main mast, which implies multiple masts. I was envisioning somthing in the 20 to 30 foot, single masted classes, you know something easily crewed by a party of four.
CryoSilver
03-21-06, 07:07 PM 2 people can easily crew a 20-30 foot boat.

My school owns a 25 foot sharpie, single masted sailing boat, and 2 people are more than enough. However, it is a pleasure craft, or at best, a fishing boat, not intended for blue water.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MasterRookie 03-17-06, 01:20 PM	My PC owns a sailing ship, a dragon broke the main mast. They're out at sea and will need to find a port. How long will it take to replace and how much will it cost?
mvincent 03-17-06, 02:14 PM	My PC owns a sailing ship, a dragon broke the main mast. They're out at sea and will need to find a port. How long will it take to replace and how much will it cost?That is up to your DM. You might be able to give him some estimates from Stormwrack or another seafaring sourcebook, but he probably has a timeline and price already in mind. For some additional ideas on replacing a mast (for free, without a port), I recommend renting the movie "Master and Commander" (excellent movie).
MasterRookie 03-17-06, 08:54 PM	I'm the DM dude.
Dalthbar 03-17-06, 08:58 PM	The mast is usually the most important part of the ship and likely the most difficult to replace. It's not as easy as just getting some planks of wood to fix up a hole in the deck. Based on that, you can decide availability and labor needed pending their exact problem. Just pulling this out my butt, I'd say anywhere from 10-25% of the actual ship (which includes labor) and the time will totally depend on how long you want them to be in port and how available the material and labor is. This would give you some time to line up some side adventures or plot hooks. Get creative... perfect opportunity to kill some PCs on dry land!
CryoSilver 03-17-06, 09:33 PM	Actually, they make these special parts for repairing snapped masts. They look like wide iron bands, or tubes, hinged on one side and what you do is roughly haul the mast back into place (with lines and pulleys) and snap the iron ring around the mast. It isn't a permanent fix, but it'll hold the mast quite well. Thing is, i'm not sure when they were invented; all I know is it was earlier than 1800. As to actualyl replacing the mast, I'd say about 5% of the cost of the ship.
Jshock_75 03-18-06, 09:52 AM	Masts are made of multiple spars (like telephone ploes). A competent crew can replace and re-rig the ship in a couple of days. It's conceivable that there's already extra spars on board ship- a snapped mast wasn't uncommon even on a merchant ship, it's the sort of thing you'd expect to be on board (like spare sails, extra line, etc).
Waterhammer 03-18-06, 12:51 PM	Accounts I've read indicate that a mast could be replaced in a couple of days by the crew. This assumes that appropriate wood is available. If the ship went to a port city the wood for a mast would have to be bought but the shipyard facilities might be able to finish the job in a half day. As for cost how does 5% of the ship's price sound?
mvincent 03-18-06, 05:54 PM	I'm the DM dude.Well hello there MasterRookie DM dude. It's generally easier to just make up these costs yourself (that's your job as DM), or allow the PC's an opportunity to make repairs themselves while at sea if they have appropriate skills. However, here are some samples from various sources: The D&D "Arms and Equipment guide (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/881590000)" says that rigging costs 20 gp per hp (a main mast will likely have 40-50 hp, depending on the ship) and require about 1 day per 125 gp to repair. "Stormwrack (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/178670000)" gives similar times, but is sketchier on actual mast costs. "... and a 10' pole (http://store.ironcrown.com/detail.jsp?itemId=2022&category=10099)" (I.C.E.'s equipment book) lists a simple 10' "Mast and Sail" at a cost of 25 sp (25 gp in D&D) and 4 days to make (but this is far too small for a decent sized ship). Mongoose's classic play Book of the Sea (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/detail.php?qsID=345&qsSeries=Classic%20Play&PHPSESSID=b8ed9a2a5fa35c2abff7f61b795fc8 d0) lists initial sail propulsion costs at about 50gp per ship tonnage (the ship is probably 100+ tons), but lists a major ship repair as taking 1500gp in supplies. It's battle damage repair mechanics however are more complicated. Swashbuckling Adventures "Ships and Sea Battles (http://www.7thsea.info/modules.php?op=modload&name=books&file=index&req=view_cat&cid=2)" does not address the issue of repairs.
Iver Gearsham 03-18-06, 08:31 PM	If they have a Mage or Cleric Zippo for the cost Make Whole, Fabricate, Repair X spells can take care of it.
MasterRookie 03-19-06, 05:54 PM	Well I made it cost four thousand and take two weeks. Plenty of time for a side quest or two. It is a bit different from what your saying now. But They're at the coast of a desert area so its not unlikely that wood and people qualified to work with lumber would be in short supply and thus expensive. Also the shortage of workers would mean it would take longer.
Raven Dark 03-19-06, 06:17 PM	By the RAW, repairing an item costs 1/5 the items base price and requires a Craft check against the same DC it took to make the item. Thus, repairing a sailing ship would take a Craft (shipmaking) check versus DC 20 (superior item), cost 2,000gp in raw materials, and require a hell of a long time. I'm assuming it is because they will have to take out all of the sails and rigging to get them out of the way, remove the remains of the broken mast while keeping the rest of the ship from falling apart (masts were often the supporting backbone of many ships), aligning and inserting the new mast, securing the new mast firmly into place, and then replacing all of the sails and rigging back into their proper place. I don't see why the OP's question had to be asked at all. It's all right there in the good book (page 71 of the v3.5 Player's Handbook).
Jshock_75 03-20-06, 03:46 PM	...(masts were often the supporting backbone of many ships...Which ships, pray tell? All the ships I've seen have the mast supported by a cleat in the deck- I've never seen one designed so it can't be replaced.
Raven Dark 03-20-06, 04:11 PM	Which ships, pray tell? All the ships I've seen have the mast supported by a cleat in the deck- I've never seen one designed so it can't be replaced. They can be replaced, it is jsut exceedingly difficult to do so.
CryoSilver 03-20-06, 09:08 PM	I'd like to know exactly what kind of ship you are refering to. Clipper ship? Schooner? Galleon? Warship?
Waterhammer 03-20-06, 09:14 PM	Maybe it's one of those papyrus jobbies the Egyptians used.
CryoSilver 03-20-06, 09:23 PM	A paper boat? The "backbone"of a ship is the keel, down from which extends the keelboard, centerboard or dagger board. The mast quite often descends down through a reinforced port in the deck, down to a lower deck or the keel, where its own weight locks it into place.
Raven Dark 03-21-06, 07:02 AM	The "backbone"of a ship is the keel, down from which extends the keelboard, centerboard or dagger board. The mast quite often descends down through a reinforced port in the deck, down to a lower deck or the keel, where its own weight locks it into place. I know the keel is the backbone of most ships. When I said "supporting backbone" what I was trying to infer was "secondary support." I apologize if I didn't make that clearer in my initial post.
Iver Gearsham 03-21-06, 06:05 PM	A paper boat? The "backbone"of a ship is the keel, down from which extends the keelboard, centerboard or dagger board. The mast quite often descends down through a reinforced port in the deck, down to a lower deck or the keel, where its own weight locks it into place. Papyrus reeds dryed then woven and bound into Log like sections that make up the ship. I don't know if they treated the reeds to slow or prevent them from sogging and rotting but they sound cheap to make so replacing them probably was not an issue.
CryoSilver 03-21-06, 06:08 PM	I stand by the price of the mast being about 5% of the cost of the ship in total. Bump that up to 8% if you need to replace all the cloth.
00_Whupass 03-21-06, 06:31 PM	I see the bigger question as how did your PCs get to port with a broken mast? As many other posters have stated an adequately trained crew with a few spars could replace a mast while shipboard in a few days, as a mast was absolutely essential. Without a mast and a few meters of sailcloth you're going nowhere. It sounds like you've already finished this particular segment of the adventure but if I put my PCs on a ship with a broken mast, how much it would cost to repair would be the least of my PCs problems.
Dalthbar 03-21-06, 06:38 PM	...but if I put my PCs on a ship with a broken mast, how much it would cost to repair would be the least of my PCs problems. Sea Trolls and Sahaugin? ;)
CryoSilver 03-21-06, 06:47 PM	I see the bigger question as how did your PCs get to port with a broken mast? As many other posters have stated an adequately trained crew with a few spars could replace a mast while shipboard in a few days, as a mast was absolutely essential. Without a mast and a few meters of sailcloth you're going nowhere. It sounds like you've already finished this particular segment of the adventure but if I put my PCs on a ship with a broken mast, how much it would cost to repair would be the least of my PCs problems. Most ships of a decent size will have more than one mast;you won't move very fast, but you'll move.
00_Whupass 03-21-06, 06:52 PM	Most ships of a decent size will have more than one mast;you won't move very fast, but you'll move. I suppose he did say main mast, which implies multiple masts. I was envisioning somthing in the 20 to 30 foot, single masted classes, you know something easily crewed by a party of four.
CryoSilver 03-21-06, 07:07 PM	2 people can easily crew a 20-30 foot boat. My school owns a 25 foot sharpie, single masted sailing boat, and 2 people are more than enough. However, it is a pleasure craft, or at best, a fishing boat, not intended for blue water.