Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dvlsadvct 11-22-05, 03:04 PM	I'm not sure if there is allready a thread for this. If there is someone just want to post a link or bump it. But what i'm going for here is pretty simple; What are some weapons/abilities/combos that you folks think are just a lil too broke for their own good?
jaelis 11-22-05, 04:16 PM	The one that gets on my nerves is Greatsword + Armor Spikes. Were you particularly thinking about magic weapon special ability combinations?
Kendrick 11-22-05, 04:48 PM	Fullblade. It's not 3.5, but some people try to grandfather it into 3.5 because it hasn't been replaced. Get a clue, people: the reason it hasn't been reprinted in 3.5 is that it was broken to begin with and doesn't belong in the game. If you want a high damage exotic weapon, the Jovar from the Planar Handbook is acceptable. If you want a fullblade, you're either a munchkin or an anime fan, and it's hard to say which I loathe more.
sleazeonwheels 11-22-05, 05:41 PM	The Talenta Sharrash from the Eberron campaign setting. A reach weapon dealing 1d10 damage should not have a 19-20/x4 critical.
Vaelan 11-22-05, 08:24 PM	The Talenta Sharrash from the Eberron campaign setting. A reach weapon dealing 1d10 damage should not have a 19-20/x4 critical. Which has been changed by the errata to 19-20/x2.
MysteryGilgamesh 11-22-05, 08:51 PM	Fullblade. It's not 3.5, but some people try to grandfather it into 3.5 because it hasn't been replaced. Get a clue, people: the reason it hasn't been reprinted in 3.5 is that it was broken to begin with and doesn't belong in the game. I'd say you're the one that needs the clue. The reason it wasn't updated, is because it's no longer a proper exotic weapon, and no longer useable as a weapon due to the way 3.5 restructured weapons. In 3.0, a fullblade was just an upsized greatsword. Thats all. That said, it wasn't broken at all. 2d8 damage isn't gonna break the game, and you're honestly making a very weak statement by trying to say it will, especially since it used to cost a feat just to do it.
Waterhammer 11-22-05, 09:23 PM	The short sword:ya, you can slash with it mon.
Kendrick 11-22-05, 10:02 PM	I'd say you're the one that needs the clue. The reason it wasn't updated, is because it's no longer a proper exotic weapon, and no longer useable as a weapon due to the way 3.5 restructured weapons. In 3.0, a fullblade was just an upsized greatsword. Thats all. That said, it wasn't broken at all. 2d8 damage isn't gonna break the game, and you're honestly making a very weak statement by trying to say it will, especially since it used to cost a feat just to do it. 1. Actually, it's a large bastard sword. However, like I said, I've seen half a dozen 'tards trying to grandfather it into 3.5 just in the last couple of weeks on this board. 2. It gives the effect of Weapon Specialization to anybody. There's a reason that only fighters can take weapon specialization - it's too good for a single normal feat, so you have to have 4 levels in a sub-optimal class to compensate for it. EWP Fullblade, however, gives at the very least the same benefit to all other characters, and if you consider a character without MWP who decides to pick up a weapon it's even worse. It's broken. Not broken like Pun-Pun or anything, but it's broken. If you look at weapons in the PHB, there's a progression. Each step up in proficiency gives either a point of average damage, or a point of threat range, or a point of critical multiplier. A greatsword or greataxe, the best two handed weapons in the MWP category, give 2-12 or 1-12 damage. Thevery best EWP weapon should therefore give 2-14 damage. This is a pain to represent, since WotC is shy about giving weapons damage that requires more than one kind of die, and the die size goes from 12 to 20, and 6 to 8. Therefore the best exotic weapon should be the Jovar, which follows the progression by taking a greatsword and adding a point of threat range.
Kendrick 11-22-05, 10:14 PM	If you doubt that the Fullblade is better than was intended for an exotic weapon to be, check out the 3.5 analog: the Sugliin. 2d8 damage, like a fullblade, but it requires 2 feats, instead of 1. You have to take a second feat to use it with your iterative attacks, which makes it a sort of "more-exotic than just plain regular exotic" weapon.
larry_the_titan 11-23-05, 04:03 AM	If you doubt that the Fullblade is better than was intended for an exotic weapon to be, check out the 3.5 analog: the Sugliin. 2d8 damage, like a fullblade, but it requires 2 feats, instead of 1. You have to take a second feat to use it with your iterative attacks, which makes it a sort of "more-exotic than just plain regular exotic" weapon. Sugliin?? what book is that in. And what two feats does it need. I mean any weapon that might need to feats to use isnt very impresive to me.
Durgen Coalhewer 11-23-05, 04:04 AM	Wow, point number 2 is just brilliant, but really why stop there? After all, +2 Weapons give two additional points of damage as well, and since that's just emulating Weapon Specialization by your convoluted reasoning (which is a not all that great of a feat) they must be broken too. And as was stated before, it was not updated due to the weapon sizing changes, not due to being broken (and I'm sorry but you merely stating over and over again that its broken does not make it true), jeeze what a 'tard. Honestly, you want to talk broken weapons, it's all about the Spiked Chain. Moderate damage, Simultaneous 10 & 5ft Reach, Trip Capable, +2 to Disarming, and a Finesseable Two Hander? Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy the Spiked Chain, it's just tiring to see yet another 'tard jump on the oh-so-popular anti-Fullblade bandwagon when there are far worse examples of "broken" weapons out there.
Barloch 11-23-05, 05:27 AM	The fullblade is to the bastard sword what the greatsword is to the longsword. For a feat, its far from broken, it deals damage 1 size categy larger then a bastard sword and has 19-20/x2 crit thats it. A greatsword deals damage 1 size category more then a longsword so by your logic its also clearly broken. :rolleyes: Now a "broken weapon" is the orcish shotput 2d6 damage and 19-20/x3 crit its a monster! However its only got a range incrament of like 10 I think so that kinda balances it out because your gunna be taking massive negs to hit anything that you wouldn't almost threaten in melee. I personally don't find anything remotely broken with spiked chain, it doesn't deal the best damage and it has no crit (just x2), its a utility weapon, its very handy but not the best one around for straight up damage.
eagleye 11-23-05, 07:54 AM	I personally don't find anything remotely broken with spiked chain, it doesn't deal the best damage and it has no crit (just x2), its a utility weapon, its very handy but not the best one around for straight up damage.Agreed, also taken that you "need" a lot of feats to get it working at its best (combat expertise, improved disarm, improved trip, ..) it's pretty balanced.
Rake 11-23-05, 08:01 AM	Um. Kendrick, you admittedly realize that the Fullblade literally is a bastard sword, upped to large size. So... large bastard swords are broken? :confused:
jaelis 11-23-05, 09:29 AM	Compared to a greatsword, a large bastard sword gives -2 to hit (wrong size) for +2 average damage, at the cost of a feat (EWP:bastard sword). If the fighter took power attack instead, he could get +4 damage for -2 to hit, which is obviously better. So with the old full blade, did you take a -2 penalty to hit? If so, then it's just weak. If not, then it's pretty decent, but I wouldn't call it broken. It gives the same benefit as WF:greatsword + 1 point of Power Attack. Somewhat better is wielding a large bastard sword in one hand via Monkey Grip. That gives you +3.5 damage for -2 to hit, which is pretty good for a one-hander. But I'd still say that greatsword + Improved Buckler Defense is considerably better.
Kendrick 11-23-05, 03:19 PM	So with the old full blade, did you take a -2 penalty to hit? If so, then it's just weak. If not, then it's pretty decent, but I wouldn't call it broken. It gives the same benefit as WF:greatsword + 1 point of Power Attack. 1. The point of the fullblade was that you didn't take the -2 to hit. That's the problem. 2. Your example requires two feats. I'm saying that EWP Fullblade is broken when it gives the same thing for a single feat. Rake: They aren't broken if they give the -2 to hit. Durgen: It's not +2 to damage that's broken, it's +2 damage for a feat with no real prereqs that stacks with everything else. Are you claiming that you should be able to stack up as many +2 damage bonuses as you want, as long as they each only give +2? Try again, genius.
Armoracia Rusticana 11-23-05, 03:51 PM	warmace
JoshuaWilhoyte 11-23-05, 04:30 PM	Could y'all please become civil?
Durgen Coalhewer 11-24-05, 02:08 AM	Again, I must say I am quite impressed. From just my simple statement designed to show the ridiculousness of your reasoning you managed to deduce the fact that I think all +2 bonuses should stack, bravo. The fact that you failed to realize what I felt was fairly obvious sarcasim only further supports my belief concerning your lack of reasonable thought. Then again, I suppose I can only blame myself for overestimating your capacity for such things, my bad. I must admit I enjoyed the jab at my intelligence though, but perhaps I should be concerned as your unsubstantiated opinions are passing for facts it appears. Back to the actual purpose of the thread, I must admit others' post have helped to change my opinion concerning the Spiked Chain. Not that I personally felt it was over powered (though I do still feel it offers quite alot, even with just the single feat investment) I was merely giving an example of a weapon that I felt gave far more than the fullblade and that most seem to consider balanced. Anyway, thanks are due to the other posters as I feel this thread has the potential to develop into quite a useful tool.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-24-05, 02:38 AM	Could y'all please become civil? 1) Someone said 'fullblade' 2) Someone said 'broken' 3) At least one person here thinks ''tards' is and acceptable way to refer to people. Probability of EVER returning to civil on this thread: 9,945,456,243 to 1 against and rising...
Matherdon 11-24-05, 10:37 AM	warmace I Agree, and I don't agree. Tac. Feat from CW. Heedless Charge gives +1damage for every point you subtract from AC, up to BAB. Warmace gives -1 AC, therefore 1 less AC you can add to damage. With abilities like Leap attack, Superior Power attack(Frenzied Berserker) and 2h weapons (can be more stuff, like stormtrooper) the -1 ac quickly gets up to -5 damage or more. I confronted my DM with this and after looking through CW, he decided that there is a Style feat in CW that gives Greatmace, morningstar and.. er... Greatclub wielders a chance to nausiate opponents if they are hit 2 or more times/round with the weapon. He added Warmace to the list of weapons capable of using this feat, and I chose Warmace as my weapon over bastard sword. the -1 AC sucks I know. But with Monkey grip and Enlarge person, the Warmace can stand its ground against a Bastardsword.
feartheinvinceblehamster 11-24-05, 12:06 PM	1) Someone said 'fullblade' 2) Someone said 'broken' 3) At least one person here thinks ''tards' is and acceptable way to refer to people. Probability of EVER returning to civil on this thread: 9,945,456,243 to 1 against and rising... Actually, it's approximately 9 to the power of 200,345,653,634,583,086,594,593,323,562, 561,005 to 1 against, or approximately the same as Cthulu's secret identity being Santa Claus.
Shirosai 11-24-05, 01:49 PM	You want to know a weapon that really is broken? The dagger, man. Jeez that thing is vicious. The look of fear in your enemy's eyes when you whip out your badass dagger... Priceless.
Waterhammer 11-24-05, 01:49 PM	Talk about two things: katana and fullblade,and the anger meter goes through the ceiling. so how about a fullkatanablade...
ShadowCub 11-24-05, 01:52 PM	But what i'm going for here is pretty simple; What are some weapons/abilities/combos that you folks think are just a lil too broke for their own good?+1 Throwing/Returning Armor or Shield Spikes.
Xanthia 11-24-05, 02:07 PM	Fullblades aren't broken. You spend a feat for +2 average damage. If you're a Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, or Ranger, you could just take a Greatsword instead for no feat cost, and spend the feat slot you saved on Weapin Focus: Greatsword, and then Power Attack for 1, giving you the 2 damage you missed by not taking the Fullblade. You wanna know something that's broken? I'll give you a hint: it's from the same book as the Fullblade. That's right, the Mercurial Greatsword. 2d8 damage and a x4 critical. Maybe they eratta'd it, but still.....
Gnomish Zombie 11-24-05, 02:25 PM	+1 Throwing/Returning Armor or Shield Spikes. OMG!!! I HAVE to do this!
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-24-05, 02:34 PM	Talk about two things: katana and fullblade,and the anger meter goes through the ceiling. so how about a fullkatanablade... A steam powered gun that fires intellegent dai-katana that are CG and have Paladin levels and has the side effect of casting Disjunction.
Durgen Coalhewer 11-24-05, 03:30 PM	The Mercurial Greatsword was errated to 2d6. That said, it is simply one step up from the Scythe in terms of damage dice; which is about the average benefit one gains when using an exotic weapon. Is there some other reason for why you consider it to be broken other than it's original 2d8?(and yes this is a serious question)
larry_the_titan 11-24-05, 03:45 PM	Just be glad that they never made a Mercurial Fullblade. Technically these would be the stats, Cost 1200 gp 2d8 damage X4 crit 35lbs slashing. Now that would be broken. That 64 possible damage on a crit for just EWP Mercurial Fullblade. Now just be glad that isnt core.
Shirosai 11-24-05, 03:53 PM	Well anything with a x4 critical has potential to be broken, I suppose. I'd use a feat to have a x4 critical, rather than a x2. Anyway, I used to think the fullblade was broken, mainly because my DM used it wrong, treating it as a medium weapon or something, not giving the person using it the -2 for it being large. After watching the poor fighter get beat down while I sat back and blasted it, I slowly came to the conclusion that it was just a sword, like any other, nothing horrendously broken about it. I play in 3.5e, by the way.
Xanthia 11-24-05, 05:02 PM	The Mercurial Greatsword was errated to 2d6. That said, it is simply one step up from the Scythe in terms of damage dice; which is about the average benefit one gains when using an exotic weapon. Is there some other reason for why you consider it to be broken other than it's original 2d8?(and yes this is a serious question)Why would I consider it broken besides the obscene 2d8 damage? The x4 critical of course.The one that gets on my nerves is Greatsword + Armor Spikes.What is it about this that makes it broken? Is it a TWF thing?
dvlsadvct 11-24-05, 09:10 PM	I think armor spikes in general are a bit broken. As far as i know there is no errata. I mean, it's a free weapon enchant that you dont have to hold in your hand. (For example +x defending amor spikes.)
olshanski_home 11-24-05, 09:20 PM	The one that gets on my nerves is Greatsword + Armor Spikes. Were you particularly thinking about magic weapon special ability combinations?I'm not sure I understand how or why this is broken. In order to threaten with the armor spikes, you have to wield them. In order to wield them AND use the greatsword, I'd assume you have to be using some TWF feats, or else your greatswords suffers a huge negative to hit. And if you are wielding the spikes as a 2nd weapon, then wouldn't you also only get 1x strength damage for the greatsword instead of 1.5x? Sure, you are using two hands, but you are also using it as one of two weapons... I guess if someone could clarify the benefit for me, I'd appreciate it. I don't allow you to be considered armed with a weapon unless you are actively wielding it... IE: a fighter who is using a longsword in combat cannot threaten with the longspear that he is NOT currently using in combat.
jaelis 11-24-05, 09:22 PM	What is it about this that makes it broken? Is it a TWF thing? Yep. You get a bunch of goodness that's hard to get any other way. For instance, a net +2 Str bonus to damage (1.5 for the sword + .5 for the spikes), a net base damage of 3d6, the good 2:1 power attack ratio, and, as dvlsadvct mentioned, a free slot for weapon enhancements. Oh, and a bonus to grapple damage. Not that it is over-the-top broken, it's just clearly better than any other PHB weapon combination. (Except maybe a reach weapon + armor spikes). Hmm, I need to make up a dwarf Barb 1/Fighter X with a spiked chain, armor spikes, twf, improved buckler defence, and improved trip. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!
rironin 11-25-05, 12:36 AM	What book is the orcish shotput from?
jaelis 11-25-05, 08:48 AM	I'm not sure I understand how or why this is broken. In order to threaten with the armor spikes, you have to wield them. In order to wield them AND use the greatsword, I'd assume you have to be using some TWF feats, or else your greatswords suffers a huge negative to hit. And if you are wielding the spikes as a 2nd weapon, then wouldn't you also only get 1x strength damage for the greatsword instead of 1.5x? Sure, you are using two hands, but you are also using it as one of two weapons... I guess if someone could clarify the benefit for me, I'd appreciate it. I don't allow you to be considered armed with a weapon unless you are actively wielding it... IE: a fighter who is using a longsword in combat cannot threaten with the longspear that he is NOT currently using in combat. For one, you don't need to wield the spikes to threaten with them, you can take an AoO with any available weapon (per the FAQ). That only matters for the reach+spikes combo though. I don't have as much problem with that since you can achieve about the same result with a spiked chain. Otherwise, nowhere does it say that the strength bonus on your greatsword drops if you TWF with it. Sounds like a fine house rule, but it's not what the book says.
olshanski_home 11-25-05, 05:36 PM	For one, you don't need to wield the spikes to threaten with them, you can take an AoO with any available weapon (per the FAQ). That only matters for the reach+spikes combo though. I don't have as much problem with that since you can achieve about the same result with a spiked chain.The FAQ is far from conclusive on this matter: It says that A character wearing spiked armor threatens all squares within his normal reach (5 feet away). If he also wields a longspear, he would also threaten all squares 10 feet away. Any time a character wielding more than one weapon is allowed an attack of opportunity, he may use any weapon that threatens the opponent who has provoked the attack.It says "if he also wields a longpspear"... which sounds like he must be wielding the armor spikes for the purposes of this question. It also doesn't say that you can attack with any available weapon... it says that if you are wielding more than one weapon you can use any weapon that threatens. In order to wield armor spikes along with another weapon, it still seems like you'd need to have two-weapon fighting. I think that if you are not wielding a weapon, you aren't threatening with it. If you have something more concrete than the FAQ, I could be convinced. As it stands, the FAQ seem to lend more support to my argument than yours. Some additional searching of the FAQ turned up the following... Q: When can you use armor spikes? A: When you fight with more than one weapon, you gain an extra attack. (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and greater Two-Weapon Fighting give you more attacks with the extra weapon.) Armor spikes are a light weapon that can be used as the extra weapon. If you attack only with your armor spikes during your turn (or use the armor spikes to make an attack of opportunity), you use them just like a regular weapon. If you use the full attack action, you can use armor spikes as either a primary light weapon or as an off-hand light weapon, even if you’re using a shield or using a two-handed weapon. In these latter two cases, you’re assumed to be kicking or kneeing your foe with your armor spikes. Whenever you use armor spikes as an off-hand weapon, you suffer all the penalties for attacking with two weapons (see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook). When using armor spikes along with a two-handed weapon, it is usually best to use the two-handed weapon as your primary attack and the armor spikes as the off-hand weapon. You can use the armor spikes as the primary weapon and the two-handed weapon as the off-hand attack, but when you do so, you don’t get the benefit of using a light weapon in your off hand.Again, this shows that using armor spikes, even for AoO, counts as two-weapon fighting. If someone isn't taking the TWF penalties for wielding two weapons, I cannot see how they can get the benefit of attacking with a second weapon. This is more evidence in the FAQ that you cannot use armor spikes and a two-handed weapon in conjunction without having TWF and taking the associated penalties.
Zathyr 11-25-05, 06:17 PM	Tac. Feat from CW. Heedless Charge gives +1damage for every point you subtract from AC, up to BAB. Warmace gives -1 AC, therefore 1 less AC you can add to damage. Errr... what? You said it yourself, the limit for PA with Heedless Charge is your BAB. Weilding a warmace doesn't affect that. If your BAB happens to be more than your AC with all bonuses/penalties, then your net AC goes negative. Now if you could just switch to 2nd ed at that point ... ;) Also, not to say its broken, but I'd like to add the Goliath Greathammer (Races of Stone) to the list of powerful weapons.
jaelis 11-25-05, 10:14 PM	The FAQ is far from conclusive on this matter: Well, you should interpret it as you see it. But to me, those quotes have just the opposite sense. A lot of it hinges on "wielding." There's no definition of that in the game, so the line "Any time a character wielding more than one weapon is allowed an attack of opportunity, he may use any weapon that threatens the opponent who has provoked the attack" could go either way. Does wielding here mean fighting with TWF, or just holding the weapon? But the the first line does say "A character wearing spiked armor threatens all squares within his normal reach (5 feet away)" with no qualifications. That sounds to me like he threatens whether he was TWFing or not. But I would say the other entry is more conclusive: If you attack only with your armor spikes during your turn (or use the armor spikes to make an attack of opportunity), you use them just like a regular weapon. To me that says that making an AoO with armor spikes works just like if you attacked with only them during your turn. That would mean no TWF issues, because you're not using them as an off-hand weapon, you're using them as a "regular" weapon. Like I said, you can read it however you like. But if you want to pay attention to the "wielding" question, you do need to be careful. It's tricky to come up with satisfactory rules for when a character is wielding a weapon or not. For instance, before you've had your first turn, are you wielding anything? Or, if you've been fighting with your sword, and one opponent disarms you, can you make an AoO with your shield before your next turn? What if a dagger thrower threw one dagger, and quickdraw'ed another at the end of his turn. Could he make an AoO with it? I actually tried to make up some coherent rules for it a while ago, and they got kind of complicated. Just something to keep in mind. Finally, just to be clear, you never take TWF penalties on AoO's in any case. (I don't think you ever said otherwise, but I wouldn't want anyone to be confused.)
olshanski_home 11-25-05, 11:30 PM	If you attack only with your armor spikes during your turn (or use the armor spikes to make an attack of opportunity), you use them just like a regular weapon. To me that says that making an AoO with armor spikes works just like if you attacked with only them during your turn. That would mean no TWF issues, because you're not using them as an off-hand weapon, you're using them as a "regular" weapon.Read the part where it says "if you attack only with your armor spikes...." You see, that to me sounds like if you are using your armor spikes (wielding them), you attack with no penalty. If you used the armor spikes in conjunction with another weapon, you'd be using TWF. If you did not attack with the armor spikes, you cannot make an AoO with them. My point is that I don't think people can use a two-handed reach weapon to attack, and NOT use any TWF penalties, and yet still claim to be able to use the armor spikes for AoO. If they were using armor spikes and a reach weapon in combat, they should be taking TWF penalties. If they were not using the armor spikes in combat, they do not get to make AoO with them. As far as your other examples: If a person is flat-footed, (they haven't wielded a weapon yet) they typically do not get AoO unless they have the combat reflexes feat. (in which case I'd let them pick thier weapon for AoO). If a fighter is disarmed, I would not let him use his shield to make an AoO unless he was using a shield bash (wielding the shield as a weapon).
Jaxgaret 11-26-05, 11:41 AM	A steam powered gun that fires intellegent dai-katana that are CG and have Paladin levels and has the side effect of casting Disjunction. A steam powered gun that fires a stream of scorpions, which have their own steam powered guns that shoot fire ants!
Morrowner 11-26-05, 01:29 PM	How about a cannon that shoots attack dogs and bees and the attack dogs have bees in their mouths and whenever they bark at you bees come out?
Zathyr 11-26-05, 01:33 PM	Smithers, release the robotic Richard Simmons. :devil: