Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raelifin 08-24-05, 10:42 PM	I am currently making a campaign with bronze-age technology but I cant figure out how to make the armor both balanced and realistic (yes I know this is impossible). I would be taking out all heavy armor, chain-shirt and chainmail. The result is a total nerf of heavy fighters and clerics. Is there a way to keep heavy armor? Perhaps a redo of the entire armor system? Comments are welcome. P.S. I dont actually use bronze, so metal weight and such can be modified.
Raelifin 08-25-05, 12:11 AM	Alright, after a bit of thinking: Homebrew Armor Table Light Armor Padded; +1 AC; +7 Max dex; -0 ACP; 5% ASF; Normal speed; 10lbs Light Leather; +2 AC; +6 Max dex; -1 ACP; 15% ASF; Normal speed; 15lbs Medium Armor Heavy Leather; +4 AC; +4 Max dex; -3 ACP; 25% ASF; Normal speed; 25lbs Light Scale; +5 AC; +3 Max dex; -5 ACP; 30% ASF; Reduced speed; 35lbs Heavy Armor Breastplate; +6 AC; +2 Max dex; -6 ACP; 35% ASF; Reduced speed; 35lbs Heavy Scale; +8 AC; +0 Max dex; -8 ACP; 45% ASF; Reduced speed; 45lbs Any thoughts?
Someone 08-25-05, 12:44 AM	Well, I think you're on to something by only having two armors per type. Just drop the two better (AC-wise) armors in each type. That leaves you with padded, leather, hide, scale, and splint/ banded. Maybe putting the existing stats for breastplate as a heavy armor (replacing either splint or banded as one of the available armors).
NeueRegel 08-25-05, 05:17 AM	Don't rework the system at all. Just disallow armor that has not been invented yet. In Extremis, allow "bronze banded" as a heavy armor. I don't think it existed, but it's a logical step that the bronze age greeks with the bronze breastplate would have taken to the later roman segmentata. Otherwise, if I run a stoneage game, I'm going to have to invent light leather, heavy leather, light hide, heavy hide, bone-splint hide, stone-studded dino-hide @ AC +8, and there will never be any reason to leave the stone age. Don't fix what's not broken. NeueRegel
Raelifin 08-25-05, 12:33 PM	Thanks for the comments. The problem with cutting down the good armor is that it changes the balance by making unarmored classes better (or armored classed worse, you pick.) Having dino hide at a +8 (silly as it is) would be ok, it represents the inability to easily pierce dino hide with stone weapons. Think of it this way: Padded Armor +1 AC [Cloth] [Stone-tech] Light Leather +2 AC [Leather] [Stone-tech] Light Hide +3 AC [Furs] [Stone-tech] Heavy Leather +4 AC [Leather] [Stone-tech] Heavy Hide +5 AC [Furs] [Stone-tech] Light Scale +5 AC [Bronze] [Bronze-tech] Breastplate +6 AC [Bronze] [Bronze-tech] Heavy Scale (effectively banded mail) +8 AC [Bronze] [Bronze-tech] Studded Leather +5 AC [Leather] [Iron-tech] Chain Shirt +4 AC [Iron] [Iron-tech] Scalemail +4 AC [Iron] [Iron-tech] Chainmail +5 [Iron] [Iron-tech] Breastplate +5 AC [Iron] [Iron-tech] Splint & Banded mail +6 AC [Iron] [Iron-tech] Half-plate +7 AC [Iron] [Not sure realy :embarrass ] Full Plate +8 AC [Iron] [Future-tech] Stone Weapons: -2 vs. Bronze, -4 vs. Iron, +0 vs. everything else Bronze Weapons: +1 vs. Furs, -2 vs. Iron Iron Weapons: +2 vs. Furs, +2 vs. Leather, +2 vs. Bronze This isn't very accurate but my point is the same. The AC bonuses are in regard to the level of weaponry at the time. Your dino-hide would be torn in two by a decent iron sword and thus is the arms race ever present. Please correct me if I am off historically. I am no history professor.
Tony Vargas 08-25-05, 12:46 PM	Eliminating effective heavy armors /will/ hurt classes that currently tend to use heavy armor and put points in stats other than DEX. That's mainly the Paladin and the Cleric, since the fighter can also be built around medium or even light armor. However, you could moderate the effect a little by also eliminating a lot of weapons - including many of the two-handed martial weapons that make eschewing a shield so attractive. In fact, really, the only two-handed weapons that seem that reasonable for the period would be the greatclub (if only for the occassional would-be Heracles) and longspear. Apropriate armors might be: Light: Padded Leather Medium: Hide Maile Heavy: Scale Breastplate Bronze armor has to be a little heavier than iron, thus bumping the metal armors up a weight-class, I'd also consider reducing thier Max DEX by 1. If iron is available in the campaign, you could have normal 'maile' (that is, chain shirt), scale, and breastplates (though they'd be as sought-after as mithral is in a normal game). There also shouldn't be nearly as wide a variety of weapons. No crossbows, flails, warhammers, picks, long/bastard/great-swords, scimitars (though a khopesh or falcata might have similar stats) or rapiers. I can't think of any apropraite martial two-handed weapons, though you might go ahead and return the greatclub to that list. All the martial pole-arms were later weapons, as were, obviously, greatswords. The scythe, 'falchion' and greatax (as depicted in D&D) are prettymuch fantasy weapons, ditto all the exotic double-weapons & spiked chain. All the 'wooden' shield types should be fine to keep: light, heavy & tower. In the absence of highly desireable two-handed weapons, The Tower Shield should help keep the heavier-armor/lower-DEX characters viable.
tarkin 08-25-05, 01:25 PM	Tony Vargas makes a good argument. I would use his rules. In the real world, his armor list is was fairly accurate. In the Bronze age, weapons tended to be Axes and Spears instead of swords.
WhiteHarness 08-25-05, 01:42 PM	http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/ I think the Dendra armour would certainly count as heavy armour, and it dates to the second milennium BC...
ClementWillowbreaker 08-25-05, 01:47 PM	Another way, if you are more into epic style (as in poetry, not the ELH) would be to rename Heavy Armor Proficiency as Legendary, and have heavy-equivalent AC versions of medium-looking armors fill it. This would represent a higher level of training being required to make the most of things like the Armor of Achillieus, which was a divine gift/ultra-masterwork set that few were worthy of. So there are incredible, nonmagical, 8AC armors out there that are shaped like breastplates. Only clerics and fighters are worthy of them by virtue of class- everyone else has to pay for them with an extra feat.
Cathon 08-25-05, 06:34 PM	Well, I have a modified equipment list for my classical greek campaign if you are interested, though there are also severe magic restrictions in the game, so I don't consider fighters to be particularly nerfed. The age is actually iron age, so most armor is bronze or leather, and most weapons are iron (or rather crude steel, so blades longer than a shortsword are problematic because of poor steel quality). I did wind up putting scythes in, though, having found an entry for a thracian weapon, the rhombaia (sp?) that is described as a scythe-like weapon. I also statted another thracian weapon, the falx, like a scimitar. The falx was a curved blade on the end of a wooden haft, sort of like a bush hook.
Shadowfax7 08-25-05, 07:07 PM	Bronze armor has to be a little heavier than iron, thus bumping the metal armors up a weight-class, I'd also consider reducing thier Max DEX by 1. If iron is available in the campaign, you could have normal 'maile' (that is, chain shirt), scale, and breastplates (though they'd be as sought-after as mithral is in a normal game). It should be the other way around since bronze is a lighter metal than iron, maybe not a good modern steel, but definitely lighter than iron. In fact it's approx. 2/3 the weight of iron. The 3rd ed. A&EG has a Bronze BP at -1 AC (due to being a softer metal) and +1 Max Dex (I presume due to being a lighter armor ??). They don't distinguish between bronze BP and iron BP weight however. One way or another, I am positive that bronze is much lighter than iron. Also, note that "Maile" (chainmail) was invented by the Romans c. 500 BC.
Tony Vargas 08-25-05, 07:40 PM	It should be the other way around since bronze is a lighter metal than iron, maybe not a good modern steel, but definitely lighter than iron. In fact it's approx. 2/3 the weight of iron. Bronze is pretty close to iron in density, and there are different kinds of bronze (different alloys of copper) that vary in density, so I don't want to claim, definitiely, that bronze is a 'heavier' or 'lighter' metal (though I looked up some densities just now, and bronze most types of bronze are denser than most of iron, though not by anything like 2/3). Bronze is not as strong or durrable, though, and to make a functional piece of armor or weapon out of it, you need to use more metal, and end up with a heavier item. Thus the idea that you could take a breastplate, leave it at +5 armor bonus, reduce the max dex and make it heavy armor, to represent bronze. I admit that maile isn't very bronze-age, but I thought I'd throw it in, as it'd at least be mechanically distinct from Hide, unlike say, 'bronze studded' (which also probably never existed). FWTW.
Raelifin 08-25-05, 09:28 PM	Wow, thanks for all the comments! The point about the shields is good. Also, looking at the great link WhiteHarness gave me, it seems the tower shield was quite popular... My favorite pic was this one (http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/aiace.jpg), a real example of heavy bronze armor. Yes, I'll be taking about everything except spears, clubs, staves, bows, axes and crude swords from my game. The question I now see is to make "replicas" of classic D&D armor or to create new versions that might be more true to the armor of the period. @ Cathon: I would love to see what you have developed and if you have any experience playtesting it.
Andrew_980 08-26-05, 01:07 AM	i would say reduce the armor list to leather, padded, hide, scale, studded, and breastplate, and encourage the use of sheilds. Remove the later period weapons such as flail, longsword, polearms and crossbows (there are more but no phb right now) Encourage higher dex or give magic compensation
Vahenir 08-26-05, 12:35 PM	If you ask me.. you're going about it the wrong way. You're too hung up on names. Why is plate armour actually plate armour? Because that's what WotC named it. Statistically, it's just high-AC, low-Dex armour. You don't need to drop almost anything out of the game. All you really need to do is give them more appropriate names. Don't drop the Chain Shirt.. just re-name it 'Breastplate.' Then rename the D&D Breastplate - Hoplite Armour. Rename Chainmail - Lamellar Coat. Etc etc..
Tony Vargas 08-26-05, 03:53 PM	Don't drop the Chain Shirt.. just re-name it 'Breastplate.' Then rename the D&D Breastplate - Hoplite Armour. Rename Chainmail - Lamellar Coat. Etc etc..Yeah, you could do that. You could even simply re-name iron/steel = bronze, mithral = iron, and adamantine = steel. It'd be workable enough, as long as the campaign setting was relatively uniform (if you ever had a crossover with a 'normal' campaign would, things'd get wierd). It also might be seem a bit off to players used to the normal rules, though, as they'd see that, for some reason, heavy bronze armor was exactly as good as the iron/steel full plate in the previous game.
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 08-26-05, 04:33 PM	In the Bronze age, weapons tended to be Axes and Spears instead of swords. True, but most swords in the PHB would still be available in one form or another. (Short Sword as the Roman Gladius, Greatsword as the Germanic Zweihander, Arabian Scimitars being available imported, et cetera.)
Raelifin 08-26-05, 11:06 PM	If you ask me.. you're going about it the wrong way. You're too hung up on names. Why is plate armour actually plate armour? Because that's what WotC named it. Statistically, it's just high-AC, low-Dex armour. You don't need to drop almost anything out of the game. All you really need to do is give them more appropriate names. Don't drop the Chain Shirt.. just re-name it 'Breastplate.' Then rename the D&D Breastplate - Hoplite Armour. Rename Chainmail - Lamellar Coat. Etc etc.. DUH! Thanks so much. I feel stupid now. :D Although breastplate isn't light armor no matter how you look at it.
UZI 08-27-05, 12:25 PM	The Roman and Celtic/German swords were Iron Age, not Bronze Age. Bronze age weapons tended to be shafted sinze wood was stronger than the softer bronze. Bronze would be used for edges, but needed to be reworked often to be kept effective. Even during the Iron Age, martial weapons typically were shafted reach weapons such as spears when used by infantry formations (such as the phalanx and the legionary maniples). Those fighting in unorganized units tended towards axes since quality metal had to be expensively imported from the east, and using wood was a cheaper way to get reach and sweeping motions. For armor, look to wood or leather plate to be used for heavy armors. The Arms and Equipment Guide has many guidelines for Bronze Age alternatives.
Andrew_980 08-28-05, 04:21 PM	Long and short spears are going to be the main weapons of armies Bronze headed wood hafted maces and clubs are common weapons for many, as are hand/battle axes and daggers, short swords for those that can afford them. bows and javelins should be the primary missle weapons, and include thrown clubs as a common missle (for the cuved trowing stick of some early cultures) Most swords, polarms, crossbows and chain based things are pretty much out of the question though
Vahenir 08-28-05, 07:00 PM	It'd be workable enough, as long as the campaign setting was relatively uniform (if you ever had a crossover with a 'normal' campaign would, things'd get wierd). It also might be seem a bit off to players used to the normal rules, though, as they'd see that, for some reason, heavy bronze armor was exactly as good as the iron/steel full plate in the previous game. If it's not any kind of 'crossover' game, then it really won't be a problem, and that's what I assume the OP is trying to do. And in my experience, players generally appreciate having the same choices under different names rather than a hugely limited equipment section. If you're planning a crossover game.. well just wait until those lamellar-clad quasi-Hittites get a load of the Knight in his +12 AC Full Plate. Although breastplate isn't light armor no matter how you look at it. Sure it is. A hammered bronze plate about a quarter of an inch thick covering the chest and stomach is functionally as light and easy to move in as a mail shirt is - I know that for a fact. True, but most swords in the PHB would still be available in one form or another. (Short Sword as the Roman Gladius, Greatsword as the Germanic Zweihander, Arabian Scimitars being available imported, et cetera.) None of which are Bronze Age weapons, there champ. As for swords in the game.. the Celts and a few other cultures did make 32-36-inch swords, which is functionally a 'longsword.' So there's no reason longswords should be excluded from a Bronze Age game. But shortswords and their ilk should -definitely- be the norm. And anything that would be considered larger than a longsword is absolutely out. Other than that, most of the PH weapons are functional for a Bronze Age setting (most, not all).