Buckler & Two Handed weapons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Buckler & Two Handed weapons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SJE
06-18-07, 06:19 PM Just wondering- what do the rules for Bucklers on p124 of the PHB mean when using a 2-handed weapon? It says that you dont get the Bucklers AC bonus for any round in which you use a weapon in your off hand. But is it referring to 2 handed weapons or to dual-wielding?

I'm guessing its the former, but want to check as I'm looking for ways to raise the AC of my 2-handed Hammer Wielding Unholy Champion.

Many thanks,

SJE
AAB
06-18-07, 06:36 PM it applies to both two-handed fighting and two-weapon fighting. unless, of course, you take improved buckler defense.
risner
06-18-07, 08:43 PM it applies to both two-handed fighting and two-weapon fighting. unless, of course, you take improved buckler defense.

While I agree with you, I believe the latest Dragon Sage (and probably next month's FAQ update) will state the intent/meaning is that two handed weapons don't take the -1 to hit penalty despite "using" the off-hand to help wield the two handed weapon.
AAB
06-18-07, 10:26 PM they don't? then there is going to be no THF build ever again that does not include a buckler and IBD. that, in my mind, is not necessarily a good thing.
jaelis
06-18-07, 10:40 PM We'll have to see how the FAQ comes through, but the Sage Advice entry I think risner is referring to just says that Improved Buckler Defense doesn't apply when THFing. You can make an argument from that ruling that the -1 penalty doesn't apply to THF in the first place, but the argument won't convince everyone. I'm sure there will be a big debate about it. Maybe it will start now!
SJE
06-20-07, 03:29 PM Just wondering- whats this Improved Buckler defence? And Dragon Sage advice?

I doubt I'll be able to use this new feat since my character is in a Living Arcanis game (SRD + Arcanis feats only) but I'd be interested to see if this changes the understanding of the text in bucklers.

Thx.

Steve
Pentagram
06-20-07, 05:55 PM Improved Buckler Defense
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency.
Benefit: When you attack with a weapon in your off hand, you may still apply your buckler’s shield bonus to your Armor Class.
Normal: Without this feat, a character wielding a buckler who attack with an off-hand weapon loses the buckler’s shield bonus to AC until his or her next turn.

It's a feat from Complete Warrior.

As for the buckler..

Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don't get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round.
You can't bash someone with a buckler.
(Player's Handbook 3.5, page 124)

It's quite clear that the penalty to hit applies both to TWF and THF. Improved Buckler Defense does nothing to modify this penalty, one way or another.

If the "weapon in your off hand"-phrase of the Improved Buckler Defense feat should be interpreted as only applying to TWF, then the same phrase in the Buckler entry should mean that you don't lose your bonus to AC from buckler when using THF. So, as presently worded, you could either rule that you lose your shield bonus to AC when using a buckler and either TWF or THF and that this is negated for both TWF and THF if you have Improved Buckler Defense, or you could rule that you lose your shield bonus to AC when using a buckler and TWF, but not if using a buckler and THF, and that the Improved Buckler Defense therefore applies only to TWF. If the intention is that you lose your shield bonus to AC when wielding a buckler and either TWF or THF and that the Improved Buckler Defense only helps out when using TWF, but not THF, it must be stated more clearly.
Kouk
06-20-07, 10:01 PM I would think the intent of Improved Buckler Defense was to have it apply equally to both modes of using your "off hand", considering a Buckler does.

In the Buckler description, the "In any case," would almost certainly refer to the two different modes of using a weapon in your "off-hand" that almost immediately precedes the sentence about losing the AC bonus.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SJE 06-18-07, 06:19 PM	Just wondering- what do the rules for Bucklers on p124 of the PHB mean when using a 2-handed weapon? It says that you dont get the Bucklers AC bonus for any round in which you use a weapon in your off hand. But is it referring to 2 handed weapons or to dual-wielding? I'm guessing its the former, but want to check as I'm looking for ways to raise the AC of my 2-handed Hammer Wielding Unholy Champion. Many thanks, SJE
AAB 06-18-07, 06:36 PM	it applies to both two-handed fighting and two-weapon fighting. unless, of course, you take improved buckler defense.
risner 06-18-07, 08:43 PM	it applies to both two-handed fighting and two-weapon fighting. unless, of course, you take improved buckler defense. While I agree with you, I believe the latest Dragon Sage (and probably next month's FAQ update) will state the intent/meaning is that two handed weapons don't take the -1 to hit penalty despite "using" the off-hand to help wield the two handed weapon.
AAB 06-18-07, 10:26 PM	they don't? then there is going to be no THF build ever again that does not include a buckler and IBD. that, in my mind, is not necessarily a good thing.
jaelis 06-18-07, 10:40 PM	We'll have to see how the FAQ comes through, but the Sage Advice entry I think risner is referring to just says that Improved Buckler Defense doesn't apply when THFing. You can make an argument from that ruling that the -1 penalty doesn't apply to THF in the first place, but the argument won't convince everyone. I'm sure there will be a big debate about it. Maybe it will start now!
SJE 06-20-07, 03:29 PM	Just wondering- whats this Improved Buckler defence? And Dragon Sage advice? I doubt I'll be able to use this new feat since my character is in a Living Arcanis game (SRD + Arcanis feats only) but I'd be interested to see if this changes the understanding of the text in bucklers. Thx. Steve
Pentagram 06-20-07, 05:55 PM	Improved Buckler Defense Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency. Benefit: When you attack with a weapon in your off hand, you may still apply your buckler’s shield bonus to your Armor Class. Normal: Without this feat, a character wielding a buckler who attack with an off-hand weapon loses the buckler’s shield bonus to AC until his or her next turn. It's a feat from Complete Warrior. As for the buckler.. Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don't get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round. You can't bash someone with a buckler. (Player's Handbook 3.5, page 124) It's quite clear that the penalty to hit applies both to TWF and THF. Improved Buckler Defense does nothing to modify this penalty, one way or another. If the "weapon in your off hand"-phrase of the Improved Buckler Defense feat should be interpreted as only applying to TWF, then the same phrase in the Buckler entry should mean that you don't lose your bonus to AC from buckler when using THF. So, as presently worded, you could either rule that you lose your shield bonus to AC when using a buckler and either TWF or THF and that this is negated for both TWF and THF if you have Improved Buckler Defense, or you could rule that you lose your shield bonus to AC when using a buckler and TWF, but not if using a buckler and THF, and that the Improved Buckler Defense therefore applies only to TWF. If the intention is that you lose your shield bonus to AC when wielding a buckler and either TWF or THF and that the Improved Buckler Defense only helps out when using TWF, but not THF, it must be stated more clearly.
Kouk 06-20-07, 10:01 PM	I would think the intent of Improved Buckler Defense was to have it apply equally to both modes of using your "off hand", considering a Buckler does. In the Buckler description, the "In any case," would almost certainly refer to the two different modes of using a weapon in your "off-hand" that almost immediately precedes the sentence about losing the AC bonus.