Bucklers and bows [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bucklers and bows [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rolof
06-11-06, 06:30 PM Ok, silly question that's probably been asked before, but I
would like some clarification on how this works. I THOUGHT
I knew already, but then reading over some equipment and
stuff in the player's, I started doubting myself. Do you get
the AC bonus of a buckler while using a bow?

This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

I'm playing an archery based character, and when I first
read through the entry for buckler, I skimmed through and
latched onto the line "You can use a bow or crossbow" with
no penalty. But reading it more closely, I noticed the line:
"if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don't get the
buckler's AC bonus". At first I thought that was just aimed
at two weapon fighters. Then I started wondering if that is
applied to my character as well.

I may have been inadvertently cheating for quite a while, if
I don't get the bonus, cause whenever the DM asks me my
AC for combat, I tell him based on adding the buckler to it.
If it matters any, it's a +1 buckler made of darkwood.
jaelis
06-11-06, 07:28 PM I always assumed that the bow and crossbow rule superceded the off-hand weapon rule. I don't know why else they would have put it in there.
RavenDrake
06-11-06, 07:54 PM Because of this line:

You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so.

Basically, the Buckler allows you to use Bows and Crossbows without incuring that -1 penalty even though they're two-handed weapons. It has nothing to do with losing the AC when fired(by most people's interpertations).

Technically, you should be able to take "Improved Buckler Defense" and retain the AC bonus when using a bow.
Vahenir
06-11-06, 08:08 PM .
In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.
.
jaelis
06-11-06, 10:30 PM Sorry, I misunderstood the question, not sure why. I agree that you don't take the -1 penalty to hit, and that you don't get the AC bonus if you shoot a bow on your turn.
Rolof
06-11-06, 11:44 PM *sigh* Well, I guess I know what my 9th level feat is then,
though I had plans to get something else.
thepsionicbard
06-12-06, 01:18 PM For some strange reason I got the song “ buckles and bows “ as sung by bob hope stuck in my head :D
tarkin
06-12-06, 03:13 PM People often mistake bucklers and shields for passive defenses.

They are not. You get no AC bonus to them for just wearing them.

You must use your arm to move the shield so that it intercepts the attack, not simply stand there and wait for a moron to aim for the big round thing on your arm instead of your head. It is in effect a form of Parrying.

Once you realize this, it becomes obvious that yes, you need a feat to be able to do this parrying while firing your bow.
Thomas_Covenant
06-12-06, 03:35 PM As a completely unrelated note, it happens to make logical sense.

A right-handed person firing a longbow with a slight weight on his arm shouldn't take a penalty to hit when firing, but a two-handed weapon (or two weapons) would be awkward.

Using the buckler for defense while shooting is hard to visualize, and not realistic.

Ordinarily I could care less about real-world visualization, but sometimes it works out. Go figure.

In summary, yes. No -1 with buckler/bow, but you need Improved Buckler Defense to use the AC from it.
SolenVlos
06-12-06, 04:01 PM I always visualizes the archer with the buckler on the same arm he holds the bow, not with the arm he hold the arrows.
ShinAkuma2
06-12-06, 07:47 PM People often mistake bucklers and shields for passive defenses.

They are not. You get no AC bonus to them for just wearing them.

You must use your arm to move the shield so that it intercepts the attack, not simply stand there and wait for a moron to aim for the big round thing on your arm instead of your head. It is in effect a form of Parrying.

Not true...You don't lose a shield bonus when helpless. Even while completely paralyzed, your shield does its duty.
StevenO
06-13-06, 09:11 PM I'm glad we can mostly agree you don't take a -1 penalty to your bow/crossbow attack just for wearing a buckler.

I'll contend that you may also keep your AC benefit in those situations. You still have your shield in front of you when aiming and it is in a good position to quickly drop down to shield an attack. If you are in melee and trying to fire a bow it may not make as much sense but then you aren't very bright by drawing an AoO to shoot your bow. Why would it work here but not with TWF, I consider the recovery from a block into firing position to be far easier than moving a melee weapon back into position and using it. If you consider what I've said as Improved Buckler Def. that's fine but that is my opinion.
pres_man
06-14-06, 02:15 AM Losing an AC BONUS is not a penalty. A -1 to attacks is a penalty. Thus when you use a bow or xbow, you don't take any penalties, this does not mean you retain all of your bonuses.
curan69
06-14-06, 10:10 AM " In any case, If you use a weapon in your off hand, you dont get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round"

So here are my questions.

If this statement includes using a bow then are you saying you should suffer the penalties for off hand attacks when using a bow? How can you argue you dont?

As far as the section that says you can use a bow without penalty, that would not negate the penalty for off hand attack, only the -1 penalty for having the buckler on.

Unless of course you want to argue it negates all penalties in which case every gnome wizard will throw on a buckler and grab a composite Longbow and not suffer any penalties for using it.

So which is it? Do you use a bow in your off-hand, and therefore suffer off hand penalties? or do you not use a bow in your off-hand and the statement about losing the AC bonus does not apply?
jaelis
06-14-06, 10:26 AM You normally use a bow in both hands, which includes your off hand. Normally, there are no penalties for doing so.

If you use a greatsword with a buckler, you take a -1 penalty because you are using a weapon in your off hand with a buckler.

If you use a bow with a buckler, you don't take a -1 penalty, because the buckler description specifically excludes bows.

If you had the TWF feat and used a longsword in your main hand and a shortsword in your off hand, you would take a -2 penalty with the longsword and a -3 penalty with the shortsword. If you used a longsword and hand crossbow, you would take a -2 penalty on each.

In none of these cases would you get the AC bonus of the buckler.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rolof 06-11-06, 06:30 PM	Ok, silly question that's probably been asked before, but I would like some clarification on how this works. I THOUGHT I knew already, but then reading over some equipment and stuff in the player's, I started doubting myself. Do you get the AC bonus of a buckler while using a bow? This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round. I'm playing an archery based character, and when I first read through the entry for buckler, I skimmed through and latched onto the line "You can use a bow or crossbow" with no penalty. But reading it more closely, I noticed the line: "if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don't get the buckler's AC bonus". At first I thought that was just aimed at two weapon fighters. Then I started wondering if that is applied to my character as well. I may have been inadvertently cheating for quite a while, if I don't get the bonus, cause whenever the DM asks me my AC for combat, I tell him based on adding the buckler to it. If it matters any, it's a +1 buckler made of darkwood.
jaelis 06-11-06, 07:28 PM	I always assumed that the bow and crossbow rule superceded the off-hand weapon rule. I don't know why else they would have put it in there.
RavenDrake 06-11-06, 07:54 PM	Because of this line: You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. Basically, the Buckler allows you to use Bows and Crossbows without incuring that -1 penalty even though they're two-handed weapons. It has nothing to do with losing the AC when fired(by most people's interpertations). Technically, you should be able to take "Improved Buckler Defense" and retain the AC bonus when using a bow.
Vahenir 06-11-06, 08:08 PM	. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round. .
jaelis 06-11-06, 10:30 PM	Sorry, I misunderstood the question, not sure why. I agree that you don't take the -1 penalty to hit, and that you don't get the AC bonus if you shoot a bow on your turn.
Rolof 06-11-06, 11:44 PM	sigh Well, I guess I know what my 9th level feat is then, though I had plans to get something else.
thepsionicbard 06-12-06, 01:18 PM	For some strange reason I got the song “ buckles and bows “ as sung by bob hope stuck in my head :D
tarkin 06-12-06, 03:13 PM	People often mistake bucklers and shields for passive defenses. They are not. You get no AC bonus to them for just wearing them. You must use your arm to move the shield so that it intercepts the attack, not simply stand there and wait for a moron to aim for the big round thing on your arm instead of your head. It is in effect a form of Parrying. Once you realize this, it becomes obvious that yes, you need a feat to be able to do this parrying while firing your bow.
Thomas_Covenant 06-12-06, 03:35 PM	As a completely unrelated note, it happens to make logical sense. A right-handed person firing a longbow with a slight weight on his arm shouldn't take a penalty to hit when firing, but a two-handed weapon (or two weapons) would be awkward. Using the buckler for defense while shooting is hard to visualize, and not realistic. Ordinarily I could care less about real-world visualization, but sometimes it works out. Go figure. In summary, yes. No -1 with buckler/bow, but you need Improved Buckler Defense to use the AC from it.
SolenVlos 06-12-06, 04:01 PM	I always visualizes the archer with the buckler on the same arm he holds the bow, not with the arm he hold the arrows.
ShinAkuma2 06-12-06, 07:47 PM	People often mistake bucklers and shields for passive defenses. They are not. You get no AC bonus to them for just wearing them. You must use your arm to move the shield so that it intercepts the attack, not simply stand there and wait for a moron to aim for the big round thing on your arm instead of your head. It is in effect a form of Parrying. Not true...You don't lose a shield bonus when helpless. Even while completely paralyzed, your shield does its duty.
StevenO 06-13-06, 09:11 PM	I'm glad we can mostly agree you don't take a -1 penalty to your bow/crossbow attack just for wearing a buckler. I'll contend that you may also keep your AC benefit in those situations. You still have your shield in front of you when aiming and it is in a good position to quickly drop down to shield an attack. If you are in melee and trying to fire a bow it may not make as much sense but then you aren't very bright by drawing an AoO to shoot your bow. Why would it work here but not with TWF, I consider the recovery from a block into firing position to be far easier than moving a melee weapon back into position and using it. If you consider what I've said as Improved Buckler Def. that's fine but that is my opinion.
pres_man 06-14-06, 02:15 AM	Losing an AC BONUS is not a penalty. A -1 to attacks is a penalty. Thus when you use a bow or xbow, you don't take any penalties, this does not mean you retain all of your bonuses.
curan69 06-14-06, 10:10 AM	" In any case, If you use a weapon in your off hand, you dont get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round" So here are my questions. If this statement includes using a bow then are you saying you should suffer the penalties for off hand attacks when using a bow? How can you argue you dont? As far as the section that says you can use a bow without penalty, that would not negate the penalty for off hand attack, only the -1 penalty for having the buckler on. Unless of course you want to argue it negates all penalties in which case every gnome wizard will throw on a buckler and grab a composite Longbow and not suffer any penalties for using it. So which is it? Do you use a bow in your off-hand, and therefore suffer off hand penalties? or do you not use a bow in your off-hand and the statement about losing the AC bonus does not apply?
jaelis 06-14-06, 10:26 AM	You normally use a bow in both hands, which includes your off hand. Normally, there are no penalties for doing so. If you use a greatsword with a buckler, you take a -1 penalty because you are using a weapon in your off hand with a buckler. If you use a bow with a buckler, you don't take a -1 penalty, because the buckler description specifically excludes bows. If you had the TWF feat and used a longsword in your main hand and a shortsword in your off hand, you would take a -2 penalty with the longsword and a -3 penalty with the shortsword. If you used a longsword and hand crossbow, you would take a -2 penalty on each. In none of these cases would you get the AC bonus of the buckler.