Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Teal 11-05-07, 06:01 AM	I'm sure this has been asked before, but I can't seem to search for it, so I'll keep it simple. Cleric. Morningstar. Buckler. Can I cast spells holding those items? Rules say that casting a spell requires a free hand. Buckler rules say hand is free to do other things like hold a weapon, fire a crossbow, etc... so I assume spell casting would fall into this category as well but it's unspecific in the PHB as far as I can tell. Advice would be appreciated :) Thanks
Dyax 11-05-07, 07:00 AM	Ya you can cast. You just dont get the AC bonus from the buckler that round,unless you have a feat or something that says different.
RavenDrake 11-05-07, 07:51 AM	The hand on the buckler arm is free to do anything, so it can be used to provide somatic components for spells. I'm not sure where Dyax got that impression, but as far as I'm aware you only lose the bucklers armour class benefit if you attack with the limb in question(such as when making a touch or ranged touch attack with it). You shouldn't lose the buckler's AC if you only use the hand to provide somatic components... unless I've missed something.
Dyax 11-05-07, 09:15 AM	I was unaware of that . I was wondering if i could gain the AC bonus from the buckler while i was shooting a bow?
risner 11-05-07, 10:12 AM	I was wondering if i could gain the AC bonus from the buckler while i was shooting a bow? No because you used the hand.
Amaril 11-05-07, 10:14 AM	I was wondering if i could gain the AC bonus from the buckler while i was shooting a bow? No, you use both hands to make an attack with a bow, thus you do not gain the AC from the buckler. Essentially, you're not defending yourself with the buckler since you're busy aiming your bow.
Shiftkitty 11-05-07, 10:17 AM	I don't think you would get the buckler's AC while casting or while using a bow because the arm that the buckler is strapped to is doing things other than blocking. For the duration of the casting (or firing) the buckler's AC shouldn't apply. The buckler's purpose is a small shield to prevent a targetted area of the body from getting hit. If that arm is waving in a pattern or holding a bow, it can't be used to shield the body without disrupting the other action. As a DM, I wouldn't judge a spell wasted because of it, and if the buckler were on the pulling arm (in the case of a bow) I'd allow the AC bonus against one attacker only if the shooter were willing to take a -2 penalty on his attack roll, since the moving to block an incoming hit would throw the aim off. That's how I would call it.
Dyax 11-05-07, 10:21 AM	I don't think you would get the buckler's AC while casting or while using a bow because the arm that the buckler is strapped to is doing things other than blocking. For the duration of the casting (or firing) the buckler's AC shouldn't apply. The buckler's purpose is a small shield to prevent a targetted area of the body from getting hit. If that arm is waving in a pattern or holding a bow, it can't be used to shield the body without disrupting the other action. My point exactly this is why i asked the bow question.
Amaril 11-05-07, 10:32 AM	As a side note for the OP, you can cast while holding any other shield as well. It just incurs an arcane spell failure if the spell requires somatic components.
Lokathor 11-05-07, 10:56 AM	As a side note for the OP, you can cast while holding any other shield as well. It just incurs an arcane spell failure if the spell requires somatic components. No, a heavy shield takes up the hand and is not available for anything but the shield's use.
Merestil Haye 11-05-07, 11:26 AM	Your hand is not free to use if you are wearing any form of heavy or light shield. A buckler (in D&D anyway) is specifically designed to free up the hand for use. When wearing a light shield on one arm, that hand may be employed for storage (say, holding the weapon) but not for active use - casting a spell or wielding the weapon two-handed, for example. When wearing a heavy shield, the shieldhand may not be used to hold anything, because it is fully occupied in managing the shield.
Amaril 11-05-07, 12:57 PM	Arcane Spell Failure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#arcaneSpellFailure) Armor interferes with the gestures that a spellcaster must make to cast an arcane spell that has a somatic component. Arcane spellcasters face the possibility of arcane spell failure if they’re wearing armor. Bards can wear light armor without incurring any arcane spell failure chance for their bard spells. Casting an Arcane Spell in Armor A character who casts an arcane spell while wearing armor must usually make an arcane spell failure roll. The number in the Arcane Spell Failure Chance column on Table: Armor and Shields is the chance that the spell fails and is ruined. If the spell lacks a somatic component, however, it can be cast with no chance of arcane spell failure. Shields If a character is wearing armor and using a shield, add the two numbers together to get a single arcane spell failure chance. Additionally, Table: Armor and Shields (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#tableArmorandShields) indicates that only a locked gauntlet renders your hand not free to cast spells. Otherwise, why would heavy shields indicate a 15% spell failure chance if you can't cast with it at all?
Merestil Haye 11-05-07, 01:18 PM	Firstly, Arcane Spell Failure applies to Arcane spells. The rule on having a hand free to cast spells with a somatic component applies to casters of both arcane and divine spells, and indeed the OP is asking about a Cleric character. Arcane spell failure never applies to the casting of Divine spells. Said character could be lugging a tower shield around, and would never ever suffer from Arcane Spell Failure. Secondly, a character wearing a heavy shield who wants to cast a spell must make sure that he has one empty hand. The hand on the shieldarm does not count as empty therefore the other hand must count as empty. From the rules on heavy shields :Shield, Heavy, Wooden or Steel You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can’t use your shield hand for anything else.And light shields : You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.Shields do restrict the use to which you can put that hand. By contrast, bucklers do not :You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The ASF of a heavy shield applies whenever a creature attempts to cast an arcane spell (but not a divine spell) with a somatic component using the weapon hand to meet the somatic component requirement - a hand which must, at the time, contain no weapon. Merely having teh weight of the shield on the other arm is enough to cause the failure chance.
Amaril 11-05-07, 01:31 PM	So you're saying clerics never suffer arcane spell failure for spells with somatic components because they're divine casters?
Nephlite 11-05-07, 01:47 PM	So you're saying clerics never suffer arcane spell failure for spells with somatic components because they're divine casters? Of course, Clerics are not Arcane. Arcane spell failure is just for Arcane's spells to fail. I don't think you would get the buckler's AC while casting or while using a bow because the arm that the buckler is strapped to is doing things other than blocking. For a brief second you shoot an arrow. You still have the rest of time with nothing in the hand. Also casting: unless summoning or orer 1 round casting spells you don't use the hand until the very second you cast leaving hand free to block. For the duration of the casting (or firing) the buckler's AC shouldn't apply. The buckler's purpose is a small shield to prevent a targetted area of the body from getting hit. If that arm is waving in a pattern or holding a bow, it can't be used to shield the body without disrupting the other action. As a DM, I wouldn't judge a spell wasted because of it, and if the buckler were on the pulling arm (in the case of a bow) I'd allow the AC bonus against one attacker only if the shooter were willing to take a -2 penalty on his attack roll, since the moving to block an incoming hit would throw the aim off. Again, most spells don't take that long to cast.
risner 11-05-07, 02:15 PM	Otherwise, why would heavy shields indicate a 15% spell failure chance if you can't cast with it at all? You can not cast using the hand with the Heavy Shield as the source of your Somatic component. They list that so that someone with a Heavy Shield and an otherwise free hand must make the ASF check because of his shield in the hand not casting. As for the OP, it is my reading of RAW that you can cast using that hand with the buckler without losing the AC, but you can not attack with a weapon that uses the hand. So you're saying clerics never suffer arcane spell failure for spells with somatic components because they're divine casters? Um, yes clerics never suffer arcane spell failure when casting divine spells. Did I misread your question? Is that a trick question?
HobbitGuy1420 11-05-07, 02:18 PM	On the other hand, there is an exotic shield (I believe it's in Races of Stone) that basically acts as a heavy shield while letting you use that hand. To use it you need to take Exotic Shield Proficiency for that shield, though - although some DMs may let Fighters swap out proficiency for a Tower Shield with proficiency with other exotic shields.
Amaril 11-05-07, 02:46 PM	You know, I feel really stupid right now. I have never played clerics and so I just thought they could use their shield hands to cast with a % penalty. Otherwise clerics have a really hard time casting spells while wielding a weapon and shield, especially if the spell requires a somatic and DF component.
Teal 11-05-07, 04:05 PM	Don't feel stupid Amaril, D&D is a *very* complex game (why do you think I'm here asking questions ;) hehe) But yes, arcane spell failure only ever applies to arcane spellcasting, not divine. And to cast a spell one has to have a hand free, so yeah, I knew that ruled out Heavy Shields. Thanks everyone for the advice! I wasn't expecting such a big response. As to what amaril said about clerics having a really hard time casting spells wielding a weapon and a shield, well, there's always the quick draw feat ;) free action to sheathe weapon, cast spell, free action to unsheathe weapon :D I just wanted to know if there was a way to achieve that without wasting a feat. Thanks again everyone!
risner 11-05-07, 07:31 PM	there's always the quick draw feat ;) free action to sheathe weapon, cast spell, free action to unsheathe weapon :D One small problem. In D&D, quickdraw doesn't allow you to sheath as a free action (it takes a move action), but in StarWars Saga Quickdraw is sheath/draw for free action.
Lokathor 11-05-07, 07:46 PM	You can swap weapons between hands as a free action. If you've also got a light shield you can move your weapon, cast the spell, then move your weapon back (possibly in the next term if the DM limits you). There's also a feat to make somatic components with your weapons instead of your hands. I think it's in Complete Mage.
Rustmonster 11-05-07, 09:25 PM	Wait, wait. I just have a question now. Does "having a free hand" mean that you can not use a two-handed weapon and cast spells? Or weild two weapons?
RavenDrake 11-05-07, 10:59 PM	Wait, wait. I just have a question now. Does "having a free hand" mean that you can not use a two-handed weapon and cast spells? Or weild two weapons? Well, kind of. Technically you cannot weild a two-handed weapon and cast spells as you have no free hand. However, most DM's would let you "drop" the weapon (a free action) with one hand and simply hold it(without gaining any benefit from the weapon) with the other to free a hand to cast spells. Then, depending on your DM, readying the two-handed weapon again could be a free action, or a Move action(as if drawing a weapon, reduced to a free action with Quick Draw). I use the latter for my games.
risner 11-06-07, 02:39 AM	You can swap weapons between hands as a free action. No, it is a move according to FAQ (or Sage) and to back that up, in Star Wars Saga edition it is listed in the chart as a move action to swap hands. It also logically doesn't make sense to be a free action, there is too much coordination required for a free action. Main35FAQv10192007.pdf page 11 Wait, wait. I just have a question now. Does "having a free hand" mean that you can not use a two-handed weapon and cast spells? Or weild two weapons? You can go to one handed with a two hand weapon as a free action, so you are fine there. If you have two weapons in hand, no, you can not cast until you drop one.
Lokathor 11-06-07, 03:05 AM	No, it is a move according to FAQ (or Sage) and to back that up, in Star Wars Saga edition it is listed in the chart as a move action to swap hands. It also logically doesn't make sense to be a free action, there is too much coordination required for a free action. Main35FAQv10192007.pdf page 11 Oh my, you're correct. It doesn't make much sense, but your correct. I can toss a staff between two hands without thinking twice about it, and I'm not familiar enough with it to fight properly. If a DnD character is proficient with any weapon they should be able to swap hands with it. I mean, if you can move a weapon between one-handed and two-handed mode as a free action, I'll start in my right, hold it with both hands as a free action, then let go with my right as a free action, and I've done the same thing using only free actions. If you claim it's a move action to put a hand on a weapon, you're just being silly. You might be correct, but you're still silly. You'd have to be seriously uncoordinated to not be able to swap hands with your weapon as a free action. However, for sake of the RAW I'm willing to believe that all adventurers are just goofs by default.
mvincent 11-06-07, 01:14 PM	No, it is a move according to FAQ (or Sage)More precisely, he says: "it seems reasonable to assume that it’s the equivalent of drawing a weapon" ... which means it could be combined with movement (if you have BAB > 0), or as a free action with quick draw. It also logically doesn't make sense to be a free action, there is too much coordination required for a free action. <snip> You can go to one handed with a two hand weapon as a free actionSince the following actions are considered free actions: 1) Go from one-handed to two-handed 2) Go from two-handed to one handed ... it seems like it would be possible to switch hands using a combination of two free actions.