Bucklers are held in the hand... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bucklers are held in the hand... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tetsubo
03-11-07, 02:21 PM Does anyone know where the game writers got the idea that a buckler is strapped to your arm? Real bucklers are held in your hand, just like any other type of shield (supported with additional straps as needed), though admittedly much smaller. It always bugs me when something as simple as this doesn't get translated into the game correctly...
pres_man
03-11-07, 02:28 PM From fantasy films and drawings such as this:
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q261/pres_man/sven.jpg

*scene from Conan the Destroyer, where Arnold is fighting his old buddy Sven.
paladin2019
03-11-07, 02:32 PM Because that's the way they are described as being used by crossbowman in several scholarly works? Because it's easier mechanically to do it this way and allow a character to also wield a dagger in the off-hand than to add a madu to the weapon charts?
Tetsubo
03-11-07, 05:03 PM There are also many more references to melee fighting with bucklers where they are held in the hand. Heck, I've even seen some of then live...

A buckler strapped to your arm in melee isn't much more useful than an arm guard... nor useless but not providing as much protection as an actively utilized buckler in hand...
draconic_swine
03-11-07, 05:08 PM I assume you're at least a casual student of medieval weapons and fighting, or at least have an interest in it? I'm going to say yes, based on the fact that you realize that bucklers aren't used this way and that it bugs you. However, just because you know "better" doesn't mean others do - I have a number of friends who believe just about every medieval myth out there, and take it as fact. The game designers just probably didn't know any better.
Tetsubo
03-11-07, 05:15 PM I assume you're at least a casual student of medieval weapons and fighting, or at least have an interest in it? I'm going to say yes, based on the fact that you realize that bucklers aren't used this way and that it bugs you. However, just because you know "better" doesn't mean others do - I have a number of friends who believe just about every medieval myth out there, and take it as fact. The game designers just probably didn't know any better.

Correct. I consider myself well informed for a layperson. Possibly better informed than that...

And anyone writing a product based on that historical era better be darn well more informed than I am. Otherwise they have no business using that era as their products default setting. I'm not talking about people with PHDs here. Just access to a dozen solid reference books. The fact that pretty much no writer that has ever even gotten close to D&D seems to be that well informed bugs the ever loving cr*p out of me...

There is no shame in ignorance. Only in remaining ignorant...
Nom
03-11-07, 05:19 PM D&D models heroic fantasy, not realistic medieval combat. It's also first and foremost a game. The heirarchy of design decision is thus:
(1) rules balance
(2) fits heroic fantasy genre

"realistic" is only given a look in as far as it is tangentially related to #2.
Tetsubo
03-11-07, 05:24 PM D&D models heroic fantasy, not realistic medieval combat. It's also first and foremost a game. The heirarchy of design decision is thus:
(1) rules balance
(2) fits heroic fantasy genre

"realistic" is only given a look in as far as it is tangentially related to #2.

If the game said that great swords were wielded in one hand, it would make as much sense as saying bucklers are strapped to your arm...

I'm willing to accept a LOT in a fantasy game. I mean a LOT. But getting basic facts of how real world items are used is going to far. Next the game will say that horses PUSH cats...
paladin2019
03-11-07, 05:27 PM Warclub, what does Stone say regarding bucklers and archers or crossbowmen? What about Burton?
paladin2019
03-11-07, 05:28 PM Next the game will say that horses PUSH cats...

Well, I suppose that's one way to look at scaring them out of your way :D
Tetsubo
03-11-07, 05:37 PM Warclub, what does Stone say regarding bucklers and archers or crossbowmen? What about Burton?

Burton I trust, Stone... not so much...
Chalkboard_Sonata
03-11-07, 05:39 PM For game development to accurately depict all historical, scientific or fantastic tropes would require both an immense increase in personal and in development time. Given that games, realistically, have a finite maximum for each, something has got to give. And honestly, I'd rather have my game be balanced first and foremost rather than medievally accurate. I certainly could read a book or do some other task to get my medieval fix. I play Dungeons and Dragons primarily a) to overcome pre-delineated challenges, and b)to casually pass the time with friends.

Not everyone has a passing knowledge of Medieval history, just as everyone isn't intimately familiar with chemistry (Which is why it is alright for both acidic and alkaline substances to be called 'Acids'). To demand that game developers have at least as much knowledge of Medieval Weaponry as you, is both unduly arrogant and purely counter-intuitive. It would be like me demanding that they define the alignment axises in relation to Nietzschean morality - wholly unnecessary and ultimately not fun for the vast majority of gamers.
paladin2019
03-11-07, 05:47 PM Burton I trust, Stone... not so much...
And your answer is?
ClementWillowbreaker
03-11-07, 09:33 PM If bucklers being strapped to your arm bothers you, say that they are actually arm-guards. Pretend the little picture in the PHB with "Buckler" under it is just another light shield. Nothing has to change. If you are extra-bothered, you could make sure to find-replace every use of "buckler" with "armguard". You can rename bastard swords, "katanas" the same way.
Nom
03-11-07, 10:50 PM I'm willing to accept a LOT in a fantasy game. I mean a LOT. But getting basic facts of how real world items are used is going to far.At least 60% of the weapons and armour in the game are at least partially mis-named or mis-statted from their real-world equivalents, even within the D&D model. So what! If the names bother you, follow Clement's suggestion and rename them. The item is ultimately defined by its game rules, not whatever label the writers happened to attach to it.

Frankly, claiming that bucklers are the straw that breaks your suspension of disbelief camel's back is a lot like complaining about specs of dust on the deck chairs on the titanic. It pales into insignificance in the bigger picture.
Jaxgaret
03-11-07, 11:42 PM Frankly, claiming that bucklers are the straw that breaks your suspension of disbelief camel's back is a lot like complaining about specs of dust on the deck chairs on the titanic. It pales into insignificance in the bigger picture.

QFT.

In a game where Dragons can fly without magical assistance [which is, from a physiological standpoint, an impossibility], the fact that Bucklers are misnamed is not that big of a deal.
penchant
03-12-07, 12:31 AM Maybe its called a Buckler because you buckle it on instead of holding it? I've never actually seen one in a museum (I've been as far as Germany), so I don't have any reference for it other than in fantasy lit. Personally, I could not see a purpose for a buckler as defensive unless it was strapped to your forearm.
OneWinged4ngel
03-12-07, 01:03 AM And honestly, I'd rather have my game be balanced first and foremost rather than medievally accurate.

Here's the problem with this opinion. As Monte Cooke describes in this article (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_los_142 ) WotC didn't really give much consideration to balance, instead purpousefully just throwing the rules out there without much consideration to balance in order to reward people for making "better" choices. This is why we're left with such an unbalanced game. (Honestly, do you really think core D&D is anywhere near balanced?)
ClementWillowbreaker
03-12-07, 02:23 PM Here's the problem with this opinion. As Monte Cooke describes in this article (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_los_142 ) WotC didn't really give much consideration to balance, instead purposefully just throwing the rules out there without much consideration to balance in order to reward people for making "better" choices. This is why we're left with such an unbalanced game. (Honestly, do you really think core D&D is anywhere near balanced?)

The Buckler isn't an example of this. Magic Weapon and Magic Stone both being lvl1 spells is. One is ok for filling up slots as a low-level cleric, and the other is completely useless. And disgruntled ex-employees very rarely have glowing words of praise.

And the core is unbalanced towards fighters in the beginning and casters at the end to make us buy supplements to fix them. And supplements are designed for power-creep to make us buy more supplements to even things out from there. No one ever sold a book with mediocre and unimpressive content compared to a book the shopper by definition already has.
Watchman
03-12-07, 02:53 PM The D&D "buckler" is really just a case of wrong terminology. As said bucklers are actually shields grasped in the hand (well, small ones usually; some quite big ones such as the Roman scutum and many of its contemporaries were held the same way...), but I'm willing to forgive the WotC folks (whose knowledge on fair few historical armament issues in general is obviously somewhat limited anyway) for not actually knowing what the heck they should call small shields starpped to the arm. I don't know any good catchall term either. There's been no particular shortage of those in history; archers, both mounted and foot, have been a major user group (another variation of the theme involved holding a shield in the same hand that held the bow - obviously a bit tricky proposition), but the small pelte of the Hellenic pikemen is pretty much the same thing.
Matthew_
03-12-07, 09:29 PM 'Buckler' has also had a long currency as a word interchangable with 'Shield'. That they chose 'Buckler' to describe what is essentially a Light Shield that straps to the arm is no bigger deal than using 'Long Sword' to describe a single handed sword or 'Chain Mail' to describe Mail Armour, or 'Tower Shield' to describe a Pavise.

There is no precise and universally agreed terminology for arms and armour. A quick peruse of the internet presents at least one dictionary definition that allows the word Buckler to describe both held and worn types...

http://www.collins.co.uk/wordexchange/Sections/DicSrchRsult.aspx?word=buckler

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tetsubo 03-11-07, 02:21 PM	Does anyone know where the game writers got the idea that a buckler is strapped to your arm? Real bucklers are held in your hand, just like any other type of shield (supported with additional straps as needed), though admittedly much smaller. It always bugs me when something as simple as this doesn't get translated into the game correctly...
pres_man 03-11-07, 02:28 PM	From fantasy films and drawings such as this: http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q261/pres_man/sven.jpg *scene from Conan the Destroyer, where Arnold is fighting his old buddy Sven.
paladin2019 03-11-07, 02:32 PM	Because that's the way they are described as being used by crossbowman in several scholarly works? Because it's easier mechanically to do it this way and allow a character to also wield a dagger in the off-hand than to add a madu to the weapon charts?
Tetsubo 03-11-07, 05:03 PM	There are also many more references to melee fighting with bucklers where they are held in the hand. Heck, I've even seen some of then live... A buckler strapped to your arm in melee isn't much more useful than an arm guard... nor useless but not providing as much protection as an actively utilized buckler in hand...
draconic_swine 03-11-07, 05:08 PM	I assume you're at least a casual student of medieval weapons and fighting, or at least have an interest in it? I'm going to say yes, based on the fact that you realize that bucklers aren't used this way and that it bugs you. However, just because you know "better" doesn't mean others do - I have a number of friends who believe just about every medieval myth out there, and take it as fact. The game designers just probably didn't know any better.
Tetsubo 03-11-07, 05:15 PM	I assume you're at least a casual student of medieval weapons and fighting, or at least have an interest in it? I'm going to say yes, based on the fact that you realize that bucklers aren't used this way and that it bugs you. However, just because you know "better" doesn't mean others do - I have a number of friends who believe just about every medieval myth out there, and take it as fact. The game designers just probably didn't know any better. Correct. I consider myself well informed for a layperson. Possibly better informed than that... And anyone writing a product based on that historical era better be darn well more informed than I am. Otherwise they have no business using that era as their products default setting. I'm not talking about people with PHDs here. Just access to a dozen solid reference books. The fact that pretty much no writer that has ever even gotten close to D&D seems to be that well informed bugs the ever loving cr*p out of me... There is no shame in ignorance. Only in remaining ignorant...
Nom 03-11-07, 05:19 PM	D&D models heroic fantasy, not realistic medieval combat. It's also first and foremost a game. The heirarchy of design decision is thus: (1) rules balance (2) fits heroic fantasy genre "realistic" is only given a look in as far as it is tangentially related to #2.
Tetsubo 03-11-07, 05:24 PM	D&D models heroic fantasy, not realistic medieval combat. It's also first and foremost a game. The heirarchy of design decision is thus: (1) rules balance (2) fits heroic fantasy genre "realistic" is only given a look in as far as it is tangentially related to #2. If the game said that great swords were wielded in one hand, it would make as much sense as saying bucklers are strapped to your arm... I'm willing to accept a LOT in a fantasy game. I mean a LOT. But getting basic facts of how real world items are used is going to far. Next the game will say that horses PUSH cats...
paladin2019 03-11-07, 05:27 PM	Warclub, what does Stone say regarding bucklers and archers or crossbowmen? What about Burton?
paladin2019 03-11-07, 05:28 PM	Next the game will say that horses PUSH cats... Well, I suppose that's one way to look at scaring them out of your way :D
Tetsubo 03-11-07, 05:37 PM	Warclub, what does Stone say regarding bucklers and archers or crossbowmen? What about Burton? Burton I trust, Stone... not so much...
Chalkboard_Sonata 03-11-07, 05:39 PM	For game development to accurately depict all historical, scientific or fantastic tropes would require both an immense increase in personal and in development time. Given that games, realistically, have a finite maximum for each, something has got to give. And honestly, I'd rather have my game be balanced first and foremost rather than medievally accurate. I certainly could read a book or do some other task to get my medieval fix. I play Dungeons and Dragons primarily a) to overcome pre-delineated challenges, and b)to casually pass the time with friends. Not everyone has a passing knowledge of Medieval history, just as everyone isn't intimately familiar with chemistry (Which is why it is alright for both acidic and alkaline substances to be called 'Acids'). To demand that game developers have at least as much knowledge of Medieval Weaponry as you, is both unduly arrogant and purely counter-intuitive. It would be like me demanding that they define the alignment axises in relation to Nietzschean morality - wholly unnecessary and ultimately not fun for the vast majority of gamers.
paladin2019 03-11-07, 05:47 PM	Burton I trust, Stone... not so much... And your answer is?
ClementWillowbreaker 03-11-07, 09:33 PM	If bucklers being strapped to your arm bothers you, say that they are actually arm-guards. Pretend the little picture in the PHB with "Buckler" under it is just another light shield. Nothing has to change. If you are extra-bothered, you could make sure to find-replace every use of "buckler" with "armguard". You can rename bastard swords, "katanas" the same way.
Nom 03-11-07, 10:50 PM	I'm willing to accept a LOT in a fantasy game. I mean a LOT. But getting basic facts of how real world items are used is going to far.At least 60% of the weapons and armour in the game are at least partially mis-named or mis-statted from their real-world equivalents, even within the D&D model. So what! If the names bother you, follow Clement's suggestion and rename them. The item is ultimately defined by its game rules, not whatever label the writers happened to attach to it. Frankly, claiming that bucklers are the straw that breaks your suspension of disbelief camel's back is a lot like complaining about specs of dust on the deck chairs on the titanic. It pales into insignificance in the bigger picture.
Jaxgaret 03-11-07, 11:42 PM	Frankly, claiming that bucklers are the straw that breaks your suspension of disbelief camel's back is a lot like complaining about specs of dust on the deck chairs on the titanic. It pales into insignificance in the bigger picture. QFT. In a game where Dragons can fly without magical assistance [which is, from a physiological standpoint, an impossibility], the fact that Bucklers are misnamed is not that big of a deal.
penchant 03-12-07, 12:31 AM	Maybe its called a Buckler because you buckle it on instead of holding it? I've never actually seen one in a museum (I've been as far as Germany), so I don't have any reference for it other than in fantasy lit. Personally, I could not see a purpose for a buckler as defensive unless it was strapped to your forearm.
OneWinged4ngel 03-12-07, 01:03 AM	And honestly, I'd rather have my game be balanced first and foremost rather than medievally accurate. Here's the problem with this opinion. As Monte Cooke describes in this article (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_los_142 ) WotC didn't really give much consideration to balance, instead purpousefully just throwing the rules out there without much consideration to balance in order to reward people for making "better" choices. This is why we're left with such an unbalanced game. (Honestly, do you really think core D&D is anywhere near balanced?)
ClementWillowbreaker 03-12-07, 02:23 PM	Here's the problem with this opinion. As Monte Cooke describes in this article (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_los_142 ) WotC didn't really give much consideration to balance, instead purposefully just throwing the rules out there without much consideration to balance in order to reward people for making "better" choices. This is why we're left with such an unbalanced game. (Honestly, do you really think core D&D is anywhere near balanced?) The Buckler isn't an example of this. Magic Weapon and Magic Stone both being lvl1 spells is. One is ok for filling up slots as a low-level cleric, and the other is completely useless. And disgruntled ex-employees very rarely have glowing words of praise. And the core is unbalanced towards fighters in the beginning and casters at the end to make us buy supplements to fix them. And supplements are designed for power-creep to make us buy more supplements to even things out from there. No one ever sold a book with mediocre and unimpressive content compared to a book the shopper by definition already has.
Watchman 03-12-07, 02:53 PM	The D&D "buckler" is really just a case of wrong terminology. As said bucklers are actually shields grasped in the hand (well, small ones usually; some quite big ones such as the Roman scutum and many of its contemporaries were held the same way...), but I'm willing to forgive the WotC folks (whose knowledge on fair few historical armament issues in general is obviously somewhat limited anyway) for not actually knowing what the heck they should call small shields starpped to the arm. I don't know any good catchall term either. There's been no particular shortage of those in history; archers, both mounted and foot, have been a major user group (another variation of the theme involved holding a shield in the same hand that held the bow - obviously a bit tricky proposition), but the small pelte of the Hellenic pikemen is pretty much the same thing.
Matthew_ 03-12-07, 09:29 PM	'Buckler' has also had a long currency as a word interchangable with 'Shield'. That they chose 'Buckler' to describe what is essentially a Light Shield that straps to the arm is no bigger deal than using 'Long Sword' to describe a single handed sword or 'Chain Mail' to describe Mail Armour, or 'Tower Shield' to describe a Pavise. There is no precise and universally agreed terminology for arms and armour. A quick peruse of the internet presents at least one dictionary definition that allows the word Buckler to describe both held and worn types... http://www.collins.co.uk/wordexchange/Sections/DicSrchRsult.aspx?word=buckler