Bull Rush and AoOs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bull Rush and AoOs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CazicT
02-08-07, 11:40 AM Ok, here's a rather complicated bull rush scenario. The hero "H" wants to bull rush the foe "Y". "X" and "Z" are also both foes. Let's assume that everyone has as many attacks of opportunity as they need just for completeness. "H" is going to bull rush Y straight back 2 squares (diagonally down). Lets assume his check succeeds, who gets attacks of opportunity and when?

Inital setup:
HX
YZ

Enter Y's square:
X
HZ

Move with Y diagonally:
X
Z
H

Complete:
X
Z
H
Y

My analysis is that bull rush provokes an AoO from all foes who threaten the square you are moving into because it is a special attack. However, AoO for regular movement would still have to be done right?

1.
So when "H" moves into "Y"s square "X" would get an AoO beforehand because "H" is moving out of a square the "X" threatens. Following this logic however, "Y" also would get an AoO before the bull rush attempt because technically "Y" threatens the square "H" wants to move away from.

2.
Well now that that is over, "H" moves into "Y"s square and the bull rush attempt provokes AoO from all threateners and the bull rushee. So "X", "Y", and "Z" get attacks (I stated earlier assume multiplie AoOs for everyone).

3.
Now "H" wants to move with Y and push him an addition 5 ft. Assuming his check was high enough, no problem, but now this causes more AoOs. Moving out of squares that "X" and "Z" threaten, they get AoOs. None for "Y" this time because he is the bull rushee I guess. These AoOs get done BEFORE the movement happens.
Well now that the movement has ocurred, does "Z" get one final AoO because "H" is still bull rushing "Y" which is a special attack happening in a square that "Y" is threatening?

This example is definetly contrived as most foes aren't going to have multiplie AoO's. But I guess the overarching question is if the AoO's from Bull Rush are a result of the movement, the fact that it is a special attack, or both?? Of course this could be further complicated if I had allies in the path. They get AoOs on the guy i'm bull rushing, but is this due to the movement or the special attack or both??
Steevo
02-08-07, 01:02 PM My analysis is that bull rush provokes an AoO from all foes who threaten the square you are moving into because it is a special attack. However, AoO for regular movement would still have to be done right?

1.
So when "H" moves into "Y"s square "X" would get an AoO beforehand because "H" is moving out of a square the "X" threatens. Following this logic however, "Y" also would get an AoO before the bull rush attempt because technically "Y" threatens the square "H" wants to move away from.

Correct. At least by my interpretation of the rules.

2.
Well now that that is over, "H" moves into "Y"s square and the bull rush attempt provokes AoO from all threateners and the bull rushee. So "X", "Y", and "Z" get attacks (I stated earlier assume multiplie AoOs for everyone).

Also correct, with the caveat that X and Z have a 25% chance of hitting Y if they choose to take this AoO (part of the Bull's Rush special rules.)

3.
Now "H" wants to move with Y and push him an addition 5 ft. Assuming his check was high enough, no problem, but now this causes more AoOs. Moving out of squares that "X" and "Z" threaten, they get AoOs.

Incorrect. You only provoke one AoO for each each opportunity you present. In this case the opportunity is movement, and both X and Y have already taken their AoO when H left the first square. Z still gets this AoO because he hasn't had the opportunity yet.

The way I play, X would still get this AoO if he declined to take the earlier one (step 1), but I'm not sure if that's RAW or a house rule. Y no longer threatens any squares because he's in the middle of being bull's rushed, so he doesn't get this AoO anyway.

Likewise the final AoO from Z is also from movement, so he would not get that one if he had taken the earlier opportunity.

This example is definetly contrived as most foes aren't going to have multiplie AoO's. But I guess the overarching question is if the AoO's from Bull Rush are a result of the movement, the fact that it is a special attack, or both?? Of course this could be further complicated if I had allies in the path. They get AoOs on the guy i'm bull rushing, but is this due to the movement or the special attack or both??

Regarding allies, I would rule they only get the AoO from the bull's rush, which is only provoked in the square where Y began, and they still have a 25% chance of hitting H by mistake. The movement is not being done by Y, so it doesn't provoke.
CazicT
02-08-07, 01:56 PM [QUOTE=Steevo;11426638]
Incorrect. You only provoke one AoO for each each opportunity you present. In this case the opportunity is movement, and both X and Y have already taken their AoO when H left the first square. Z still gets this AoO because he hasn't had the opportunity yet.
QUOTE]

Thanks for your response.

In the description of Comabat Reflexes on p. 92 it says "You can still make only one attack of opportunity per opportunity." I always took this to mean that you can only attack once rather than using multiple attacks if you have them, but if you move out of a square they threaten that's one opportunity and then if you move out of another square that's another opportunity so they get another attack. You might be right, though, i'm not sure.

Either way, it seems like you agree there are opportunities for both the movement and the act itself which makes bull rushing potentially more dangerous than it looks at first.
J_Riley
02-08-07, 02:06 PM You might be right, though, i'm not sure.

Steevo's interpretation is the generally accepted one. Pg. 137 of the PHB, last paragraph, does a good job of spelling it out.
ibayboy
02-08-07, 02:14 PM Regarding allies, I would rule they only get the AoO from the bull's rush, which is only provoked in the square where Y began, and they still have a 25% chance of hitting H by mistake. The movement is not being done by Y, so it doesn't provoke.

Both combatants provoke from all people that threaten.

(Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)
CazicT
02-08-07, 02:39 PM Ahh yes you are both 100% correct, only 1 AoO per foe for movement in a round. This makes a little more sense now. So at most each foe in this scenario could get 2 AoOs 1 for moving out of threatened squares and 1 for performing a special attack in a threatened square.

After looking at the Bull Rush text though, I'm thinking that the AoO that the bull rush description talks about replaces the one that is used normally for movement rather than adding to it.

If this wasn't the case than the feat "Improved Bull Rush" would only remove one of the AoO, but the one for moving into the defender's square (and thus out of one that the defender presumably threatens) would still be carried out.

But I don't think that is really what was intended. So i'm leaning toward believing that when you move into the defender's square all foes that threaten that square get there "Bull Rush" AoO and that is it (this includes 25% chance of hitting wrong person).

Then when you move with the defender pushing him, any NEW threateners of the squares you pass through get a "Bull Rush" AoO and that is it.

So everyone involved gets at most 1 AoO and this has 25% chance of hitting wrong person. The defender himself doesn't have a 25% of hitting wrong person though.

The only caveat to this is if you when you move into the defender's square and out of a square that is threatened by someone who doesn't threaten your new square, maybe they should get a regular movement AoO first...
draconic_swine
02-08-07, 03:12 PM No, you still provoke two AoO's - one for initiating the bull rush, and another if you move with your opponent. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush):

Initiating a Bull Rush
First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.)

Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.

Bull Rush Results
If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)

If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.

The bull rush description shows two possible attacks of opportunity. Any opponent who threatens you while doing either action can make an attack of opportunity against you. There is no provision that the moving with your opponent provokes attacks of opportunity only from opponents who "newly" threaten you.
CazicT
02-08-07, 03:32 PM OK, thanks, I think it is getting a little clearer now.
So:
When you say I want to do a bull rush, anyone who threatens the space you are leaving (the one adjacent to the defender), get's an AoO, including the defender (If no Improved Bull Rush). Anyone other than the defender has 25% chance of hitting wrong person.

Once this is taken care of, you can either move with the defender or not (assuming you outrolled him by enough, otherwise you can't move any more).

If you don't wish to move any more or can't, you take no more AoO and the defender get's pushed to the next square over. Now does the defender get AoO from your allies that threaten the space he was just pushed from?? And if so I would guess there is that 25% chance that the wrong target gets hit.

If you want to move with your opponent, then every time you leave a square any combatants that threaten the square can take an AoO and have the 25% chance of hitting the wrong person. I would guess that if they had previously taken an AoO due to this bull rush, they cannot take another AoO even with combat reflexes as this would be considered the same opportunity.

Once you are done moving with the defender, you push the defender to the next square and he takes AoO from anyone who hasn't taken one yet and threatens the square he is leaving (the one you are in right now).

Seems to make sense, but what if you fail your bull rush attempt and get pushed back into the square you were coming from. Any opponent who was on the other side of the defender who didn't get an AoO from your initial attempt since you were moving into a square they threatened, not out of, now seem like they should get one since you are leaving a square they threaten. I guess this would still have a 25% of hitting the wrong person.
Nom
02-08-07, 09:20 PM I think you're misunderstanding slightly.

Assuming you start adjacent, the first AoO is provoked when you attempt to enter the defender's square. From most characters, this is because you left a threatened square. From the defender, it's because you are entering his space. Improved Bull Rush negates the latter. Note that the AoO is a movement based AoO ("move into the defender's square. Doing this ..."), not a special AoO generated by the bull-rush.

As for a failed rush, I'd assume that means that you are thwarted in entering the square and thus don't. It's not quite what the rules say, but I think it's what they're trying to model. In any case, it's a movement based AoO, so at most only characters who would threaten you in the defender's square can make an AoO and only if they haven't previously made an AoO. Personally, I'd treat it as if you failed to enter the defender's square and thus wouldn't provoke additional AoOs.
CazicT
02-09-07, 10:09 AM The description of bull rush definitely indicates that you enter the defender's square as the first part of the rush, before the results are known.

This is where the wording becomes unspecific. It says each opponent that threatens you gets an AoO including the defender. Everyone except the defender gets a 25% of targeting the wrong person. It does not say however WHICH SQUARE, the one you were coming from or the one you were leaving. If you moved into that square normally without anyone in it, then of course anyone who threatens the square you were leaving would get a normal AoO; so it makes sense that this would not be eliminated in this case. However, why would there be a 25% chance of hitting wrong person in this case since you are still technically in the square without the defender at this point.

I guess this could be a case where the nature of turned-based action trying to simulate real-time action confuses the matter. Maybe they introduce this 25% mistarget chance to indicate you are "on your way" into the square when the AoO happens.

I'm leaning towards thinking anyone who threatens either square gets an AoO, but has the 25% mis-target chance. The defender gets an AoO with no mis-target chance, unless the bull rusher has Improved Bull Rush in which case the defender's AoO gets eliminated.

From here you roll to see the results. If you fail you go straight back, no additional AoOs needed since any threatener's had their chance when you came into the square initially. If you succeed, you might move more or might not. If you do, whenever you leave a space, all threateners get an AoO with the 25% mis-target chance and likewise the defender is subject to AoOs as well. When you are done moving you give your final push to the defender to push him into the next square and any allies can take there AoO because he was leaving a threatened square, but the 25% mis-target chance still applies.
In any case, all combatants can get a most 1 AoO from this entire bull rush, even if they have combat reflexes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CazicT 02-08-07, 11:40 AM	Ok, here's a rather complicated bull rush scenario. The hero "H" wants to bull rush the foe "Y". "X" and "Z" are also both foes. Let's assume that everyone has as many attacks of opportunity as they need just for completeness. "H" is going to bull rush Y straight back 2 squares (diagonally down). Lets assume his check succeeds, who gets attacks of opportunity and when? Inital setup: HX YZ Enter Y's square: X HZ Move with Y diagonally: X Z H Complete: X Z H Y My analysis is that bull rush provokes an AoO from all foes who threaten the square you are moving into because it is a special attack. However, AoO for regular movement would still have to be done right? 1. So when "H" moves into "Y"s square "X" would get an AoO beforehand because "H" is moving out of a square the "X" threatens. Following this logic however, "Y" also would get an AoO before the bull rush attempt because technically "Y" threatens the square "H" wants to move away from. 2. Well now that that is over, "H" moves into "Y"s square and the bull rush attempt provokes AoO from all threateners and the bull rushee. So "X", "Y", and "Z" get attacks (I stated earlier assume multiplie AoOs for everyone). 3. Now "H" wants to move with Y and push him an addition 5 ft. Assuming his check was high enough, no problem, but now this causes more AoOs. Moving out of squares that "X" and "Z" threaten, they get AoOs. None for "Y" this time because he is the bull rushee I guess. These AoOs get done BEFORE the movement happens. Well now that the movement has ocurred, does "Z" get one final AoO because "H" is still bull rushing "Y" which is a special attack happening in a square that "Y" is threatening? This example is definetly contrived as most foes aren't going to have multiplie AoO's. But I guess the overarching question is if the AoO's from Bull Rush are a result of the movement, the fact that it is a special attack, or both?? Of course this could be further complicated if I had allies in the path. They get AoOs on the guy i'm bull rushing, but is this due to the movement or the special attack or both??
Steevo 02-08-07, 01:02 PM	My analysis is that bull rush provokes an AoO from all foes who threaten the square you are moving into because it is a special attack. However, AoO for regular movement would still have to be done right? 1. So when "H" moves into "Y"s square "X" would get an AoO beforehand because "H" is moving out of a square the "X" threatens. Following this logic however, "Y" also would get an AoO before the bull rush attempt because technically "Y" threatens the square "H" wants to move away from. Correct. At least by my interpretation of the rules. 2. Well now that that is over, "H" moves into "Y"s square and the bull rush attempt provokes AoO from all threateners and the bull rushee. So "X", "Y", and "Z" get attacks (I stated earlier assume multiplie AoOs for everyone). Also correct, with the caveat that X and Z have a 25% chance of hitting Y if they choose to take this AoO (part of the Bull's Rush special rules.) 3. Now "H" wants to move with Y and push him an addition 5 ft. Assuming his check was high enough, no problem, but now this causes more AoOs. Moving out of squares that "X" and "Z" threaten, they get AoOs. Incorrect. You only provoke one AoO for each each opportunity you present. In this case the opportunity is movement, and both X and Y have already taken their AoO when H left the first square. Z still gets this AoO because he hasn't had the opportunity yet. The way I play, X would still get this AoO if he declined to take the earlier one (step 1), but I'm not sure if that's RAW or a house rule. Y no longer threatens any squares because he's in the middle of being bull's rushed, so he doesn't get this AoO anyway. Likewise the final AoO from Z is also from movement, so he would not get that one if he had taken the earlier opportunity. This example is definetly contrived as most foes aren't going to have multiplie AoO's. But I guess the overarching question is if the AoO's from Bull Rush are a result of the movement, the fact that it is a special attack, or both?? Of course this could be further complicated if I had allies in the path. They get AoOs on the guy i'm bull rushing, but is this due to the movement or the special attack or both?? Regarding allies, I would rule they only get the AoO from the bull's rush, which is only provoked in the square where Y began, and they still have a 25% chance of hitting H by mistake. The movement is not being done by Y, so it doesn't provoke.
CazicT 02-08-07, 01:56 PM	[QUOTE=Steevo;11426638] Incorrect. You only provoke one AoO for each each opportunity you present. In this case the opportunity is movement, and both X and Y have already taken their AoO when H left the first square. Z still gets this AoO because he hasn't had the opportunity yet. QUOTE] Thanks for your response. In the description of Comabat Reflexes on p. 92 it says "You can still make only one attack of opportunity per opportunity." I always took this to mean that you can only attack once rather than using multiple attacks if you have them, but if you move out of a square they threaten that's one opportunity and then if you move out of another square that's another opportunity so they get another attack. You might be right, though, i'm not sure. Either way, it seems like you agree there are opportunities for both the movement and the act itself which makes bull rushing potentially more dangerous than it looks at first.
J_Riley 02-08-07, 02:06 PM	You might be right, though, i'm not sure. Steevo's interpretation is the generally accepted one. Pg. 137 of the PHB, last paragraph, does a good job of spelling it out.
ibayboy 02-08-07, 02:14 PM	Regarding allies, I would rule they only get the AoO from the bull's rush, which is only provoked in the square where Y began, and they still have a 25% chance of hitting H by mistake. The movement is not being done by Y, so it doesn't provoke. Both combatants provoke from all people that threaten. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)
CazicT 02-08-07, 02:39 PM	Ahh yes you are both 100% correct, only 1 AoO per foe for movement in a round. This makes a little more sense now. So at most each foe in this scenario could get 2 AoOs 1 for moving out of threatened squares and 1 for performing a special attack in a threatened square. After looking at the Bull Rush text though, I'm thinking that the AoO that the bull rush description talks about replaces the one that is used normally for movement rather than adding to it. If this wasn't the case than the feat "Improved Bull Rush" would only remove one of the AoO, but the one for moving into the defender's square (and thus out of one that the defender presumably threatens) would still be carried out. But I don't think that is really what was intended. So i'm leaning toward believing that when you move into the defender's square all foes that threaten that square get there "Bull Rush" AoO and that is it (this includes 25% chance of hitting wrong person). Then when you move with the defender pushing him, any NEW threateners of the squares you pass through get a "Bull Rush" AoO and that is it. So everyone involved gets at most 1 AoO and this has 25% chance of hitting wrong person. The defender himself doesn't have a 25% of hitting wrong person though. The only caveat to this is if you when you move into the defender's square and out of a square that is threatened by someone who doesn't threaten your new square, maybe they should get a regular movement AoO first...
draconic_swine 02-08-07, 03:12 PM	No, you still provoke two AoO's - one for initiating the bull rush, and another if you move with your opponent. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush): Initiating a Bull Rush First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.) Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable. Bull Rush Results If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.) If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space. The bull rush description shows two possible attacks of opportunity. Any opponent who threatens you while doing either action can make an attack of opportunity against you. There is no provision that the moving with your opponent provokes attacks of opportunity only from opponents who "newly" threaten you.
CazicT 02-08-07, 03:32 PM	OK, thanks, I think it is getting a little clearer now. So: When you say I want to do a bull rush, anyone who threatens the space you are leaving (the one adjacent to the defender), get's an AoO, including the defender (If no Improved Bull Rush). Anyone other than the defender has 25% chance of hitting wrong person. Once this is taken care of, you can either move with the defender or not (assuming you outrolled him by enough, otherwise you can't move any more). If you don't wish to move any more or can't, you take no more AoO and the defender get's pushed to the next square over. Now does the defender get AoO from your allies that threaten the space he was just pushed from?? And if so I would guess there is that 25% chance that the wrong target gets hit. If you want to move with your opponent, then every time you leave a square any combatants that threaten the square can take an AoO and have the 25% chance of hitting the wrong person. I would guess that if they had previously taken an AoO due to this bull rush, they cannot take another AoO even with combat reflexes as this would be considered the same opportunity. Once you are done moving with the defender, you push the defender to the next square and he takes AoO from anyone who hasn't taken one yet and threatens the square he is leaving (the one you are in right now). Seems to make sense, but what if you fail your bull rush attempt and get pushed back into the square you were coming from. Any opponent who was on the other side of the defender who didn't get an AoO from your initial attempt since you were moving into a square they threatened, not out of, now seem like they should get one since you are leaving a square they threaten. I guess this would still have a 25% of hitting the wrong person.
Nom 02-08-07, 09:20 PM	I think you're misunderstanding slightly. Assuming you start adjacent, the first AoO is provoked when you attempt to enter the defender's square. From most characters, this is because you left a threatened square. From the defender, it's because you are entering his space. Improved Bull Rush negates the latter. Note that the AoO is a movement based AoO ("move into the defender's square. Doing this ..."), not a special AoO generated by the bull-rush. As for a failed rush, I'd assume that means that you are thwarted in entering the square and thus don't. It's not quite what the rules say, but I think it's what they're trying to model. In any case, it's a movement based AoO, so at most only characters who would threaten you in the defender's square can make an AoO and only if they haven't previously made an AoO. Personally, I'd treat it as if you failed to enter the defender's square and thus wouldn't provoke additional AoOs.
CazicT 02-09-07, 10:09 AM	The description of bull rush definitely indicates that you enter the defender's square as the first part of the rush, before the results are known. This is where the wording becomes unspecific. It says each opponent that threatens you gets an AoO including the defender. Everyone except the defender gets a 25% of targeting the wrong person. It does not say however WHICH SQUARE, the one you were coming from or the one you were leaving. If you moved into that square normally without anyone in it, then of course anyone who threatens the square you were leaving would get a normal AoO; so it makes sense that this would not be eliminated in this case. However, why would there be a 25% chance of hitting wrong person in this case since you are still technically in the square without the defender at this point. I guess this could be a case where the nature of turned-based action trying to simulate real-time action confuses the matter. Maybe they introduce this 25% mistarget chance to indicate you are "on your way" into the square when the AoO happens. I'm leaning towards thinking anyone who threatens either square gets an AoO, but has the 25% mis-target chance. The defender gets an AoO with no mis-target chance, unless the bull rusher has Improved Bull Rush in which case the defender's AoO gets eliminated. From here you roll to see the results. If you fail you go straight back, no additional AoOs needed since any threatener's had their chance when you came into the square initially. If you succeed, you might move more or might not. If you do, whenever you leave a space, all threateners get an AoO with the 25% mis-target chance and likewise the defender is subject to AoOs as well. When you are done moving you give your final push to the defender to push him into the next square and any allies can take there AoO because he was leaving a threatened square, but the 25% mis-target chance still applies. In any case, all combatants can get a most 1 AoO from this entire bull rush, even if they have combat reflexes.