Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cid's_Mind 11-07-05, 04:21 PM	First of all let me set up the encounter, I was running the module The Sunless Citadel. (Encounter took place in room #41 for those of you who have it) In this room is a large shaft leading down. This room also has two doors that are about 20 feet apart from one another. Now, the party decides to enter both doors at the same time. Creatures inside are goblins, and hobgoblins. Combat starts and the party realizes that they need to get inside quickly and get some sort of flanking or take out the enemy cleric. One party member sees a chance and takes it on his turn. He says he is going to bullrush a hobgoblin that is only 10 feet away. Rolls are made and player wins. He pushes the hobgoblin into the shaft (and kills it. ..) and then moves 15 feet away to get flanking on another creature. Now, I know that on page 154 of the PHB the rule states: You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. The group and I got into a discussion about this because I didn't think that someone can make a bull rush that lets you move and then still get your move action in. To me this seems to be a really strong "special attack" seeing that you can move yourself, another person, and then still move away. I will be the first to say, I do see it both ways, as a standard action and my way. But I want to know what you guys think. My group is split on the idea and we just went along with it at the time for games sake. Thanks from, Cid's Mind. ____________________ To some, there are many. To many, there are some. To me, there is only me.
LaoKhanWei 11-07-05, 04:24 PM	I'd say he should only be able to do this if he has spring attack. I'm also not sure he should grant a flanking bonus if he's just moving close to the enemy rather than actively attacking the enemy. Flanking is based on the idea that it's harder to fight two people off if they're attacking you from two different directions at once. IMO this is not happening yet.
Talon Stormwarden 11-07-05, 05:15 PM	In order to bullrush you have to move into the defender's square, there's your move action for the round. The bullrush (opposed strength check) is a standard action. That's all you get, so he's done after the bullrush. It's a tad ambiguous, as it doesn't explicitly state that the initial move is separate from the bullrush action, but I think that's how I'd rule it. I'd be interested to hear arguments to the contrary though.
Keenath 11-07-05, 05:24 PM	I think you can, in fact, push somebody and then also take a move action. Why does that bother you? There are several balancing factors: 1) You can't exceed your normal movement, so it doesn't let you go any faster than usual. No matter what, you can't move further by bull rushing than you could move by walking. 2) You spend a standard action doing it. It's like moving as a standard action, but you're taking the other guy with you. 3) You have to win a strength check by a lot to move them more than one square -- if you win by 5 points, you can push him 10 feet, and so on. If you have Spring Attack, theoretically you could move, bull rush, then move again, where the before and after moves are your move action, and the bull rush (with all associated movement) is your standard action. If you don't have spring attack, you can either charge-bull rush (which takes your full action and doesn't allow movement after the charge), or you can move, then bull rush (again, you can't move afterwards). If you want to bullrush, then move, you have to start out adjacent to the target.
Keenath 11-07-05, 05:26 PM	In order to bullrush you have to move into the defender's square, there's your move action for the round.Nah... for any combat action that says, "You enter your opponents square" as part of the action (grapple, bullrush...), that movement is a part of the attack, not a move action that you have to use in addition to the attack. In the case of grapple, it says, "This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round," which means you can move your full speed before starting the grapple, and still move into the opponent's space. In the case of bull rush, the movement into the opponent's square still counts against the movement limit, but doesn't require a separate action to do.
Mogofeiden 11-07-05, 05:31 PM	Hi all, Come on people, the PHB says bullrush is a standard Action (attack), if part of a charge then is a full round action (charge is a full round action). Bullrush is not overpowered or broken (as you can't move more than your speed unless you charge), unless you place a bottomless pit in every room. Also spring attack is more versatile so, leave the players alone. If the target is in a threatned square then apply flanking, as in the situation described the target could provoke AoO thus the flanking applies. Regards
Mogofeiden 11-07-05, 05:34 PM	If you have Spring Attack, theoretically you could move, bull rush, then move again, where the before and after moves are your move action, and the bull rush (with all associated movement) is your standard action. . You can't use a standard action with spring attack, only an attack action.
LaoKhanWei 11-07-05, 05:35 PM	Oh yeah, and if an NPC gets knocked off a cliff, bottomless bit, etc you can always allow them a reflex save to grab the edge. If it's a small enough hole they can brase themselves against two sides of it. If the walls are rough they may be able to grab something on the way down (people do it all the time in movies). I like to think as a general rule, if you don't actually see someone die, there's a 90% chance they're still alive :)
00_Whupass 11-07-05, 05:36 PM	The open shaft in this particular encounter is what made bullrush so very useful since he was able to push a creature down it. Normally however if a character bullrushed someone and then wanted to move afterwords he would provoke an attack of opportunity for leaving the square threatened by the creature he pushed. This is a situation where a player sized up the situation and came up with a creative inovative and fitting solution to the problem, does that mean the ability is too powerful, no. This is a case of having the right tool for the right job, a hammer drives nails better than a sword, does this mean the hammer is too good, no, just suited to the job at hand. Give your player a heartfelt Kudos for his creative quick thinking that helped overcome the challenge of the encounter.
Kendrick 11-07-05, 05:36 PM	Movement is not included in the Bull Rush action. The only way to move and do a Bull Rush at the same time is to charge, which is a full round action. Your player could also use his move action to move up to the enemy and then bull rush as a standard action (for example, to avoid the AC penalty for charging). In neither case could he move, bull rush, and then move again. It's questionable whether this would work even with spring attack, since bull rushing is a standard action. It would be reasonable IMO, but I'm not sure it works by the RAW.
Nom 11-07-05, 05:48 PM	One party member sees a chance and takes it on his turn. He says he is going to bullrush a hobgoblin that is only 10 feet away. Rolls are made and player wins. He pushes the hobgoblin into the shaft (and kills it. ..) and then moves 15 feet away to get flanking on another creature.The hobgoblin starts 10 feet away. To bull rush, you need to be adjacent. Since bull rush involves movement, he cannot use a 5 foot step, and must use his move action to close from 10 ft. to 5 ft.. His standard action is the bull rush. He's then out of actions, leaving none to manoeuvre. Note that he could also have charged, though there's no particular reason to do so in this situation. Had the character started adjacent to the hobgoblin then he would not have needed to move before bullrushing and thus would still have a standard action available afterwards.
GhostStepper 11-07-05, 05:57 PM	I think this one is ify but could technically get passed the the rule lawyers. It does say that moving into your opponent's square counts against your movement for the round and that if you beat his roll you can move him back subsequent spaces (which also count against your movement) but it never says such movement is a separate action from the initial bullrush. One could technically find that a bullrush that moves the PC and his foe say 15 feet is simply a standard action which costs 15 feet of movement. It is most deffinatly not a normal movement action since its based on a "bullrush opposed check". The charge special action sets the precedent for allowing a creature to move multiple squares as part of action which technically isnt a "move action". It is in fact a full round action which involves moving multiple squares with a maximum movement directly related to your speed. Based on that its not a stretch to rule that a bullrush initiated in a space adjacent to the target which ultimately involves our PC moving 15 feet is all part of a "bullrush' ( = standard) action and that a character with a speed of 30 could move the other 15 as a move action. Of course this is just my interpretation.
Kendrick 11-07-05, 06:02 PM	Right, GhostStepper, but keep in mind that unless he begins the round adjacent to the hobgoblin he has to use his move action for the turn to get there.
00_Whupass 11-07-05, 06:12 PM	hmm, I was under the impression that you had to move at least 20 feet before attempting a bullrush, as you must with a charge, but a quick check of the SRD reveals me to be in error. Here's my new take on the scenario, bullrush is a standard action that includes all movement after the opposed check, any movement before that would require a separate move action. Since a character is limited to a one standard action and one move action per round a character could move before or after a bullrush, but not both. Since this is a standard action, not an attack action, spring attack doesn't allow you to split your movement into before and after the bullrush, at least not RAW though a house rule might be reasonable. So no your player could not move into contact with the bugbear, bullrush the bugbear into the pit and then move again.
GhostStepper 11-07-05, 06:20 PM	i think moving TO the adjacent square, making the bullrush, moving into the opponent's square and moving with him another few spaces (assuming a high enough roll) and then moving elsewhere is bending the rules far enough to break them for sure.
RisingZan 11-07-05, 06:35 PM	In the Rules as Written, a Bull Rush is a standard action or part of a charge so a player can either: 1) Charge and Bull Rush an enemy to push them in the direction of the charge (Obviously) 2) Move adjacent to an opponent and Bull Rush them from an adjacent space into the space opposite that space (and along that line) 3) Bull Rush an adjacent opponent and then move after the Bull Rush is resolved (this would provoke from the enemy unless they either fell down a pit or were pushed into a spiked wall and impaled, etc). No normal PC ability will allow you to Move, Bull Rush and Move again. Spring attack also won't allow this since it specifies that only works for a single attack with melee weapon (could be expanded to two attacks with the Dual Strike feat). These are the only abilities I know of that would allow a Move, Bull Rush, Move- 1) Quickness - a supernatural ability owned by some monsters, such as a Choker. 2) The 3.0 version of Haste, since it actually gave you an extra action every round (and which is basically what the Quickness ability is in 3.5). The one thing I wish the Rules as Written did include, is at least an idea of how to adjucate Bull Rushing an enemy into a Wall or other solid object. Do they take damage? Lethal or Subdual? Is the damage based upon how far they moved or how much more they would have moved? Can they then be considered pinned against the wall (perhaps after an additional grapple check)?
Talon Stormwarden 11-07-05, 06:40 PM	Nah... for any combat action that says, "You enter your opponents square" as part of the action (grapple, bullrush...), that movement is a part of the attack, not a move action that you have to use in addition to the attack. In the case of grapple, it says, "This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round," which means you can move your full speed before starting the grapple, and still move into the opponent's space. In the case of bull rush, the movement into the opponent's square still counts against the movement limit, but doesn't require a separate action to do. You're right. What I was thinking but didn't transmit to my fingers to type was that the character needed a move action to move up to the goblin, which is exactly what Nom posted. /bow Edit: Wow, on 2nd thought (err, 3rd I guess), what I typed was exactly what I was thinking, which was wrong. So like, nevermind and stuff. Still though, go Nom.
Zherog 11-07-05, 08:38 PM	hmm, I was under the impression that you had to move at least 20 feet before attempting a bullrush, as you must with a charge, but a quick check of the SRD reveals me to be in error. You have to move at least 10' for a charge, not 20. ;)
Silvercrys 11-07-05, 10:31 PM	According to the PH, you can make one move action and one standard action in a round. You can take a move action either before or after your standard action, but you cannot split your move (Unless you have Spring Attack). You must move into an opponent's square to initiate a bull rush (This provokes attacks of opportunity from the defender and anyone else threatening the square). So, I would say that the PC used his move action to move into the opponent's square and used his standard action to bull rush. And Grappling doesn't have you move into the opponent's square, you make a melee touch attack roll against him.
RisingZan 11-08-05, 12:23 AM	As Bull Rush is written, you don't burn a move action to enter the opponent square if you're already adjacent; entering the space initiates the bull rush and is therefore part of the standard action. However, if you are not adjacent at the start of your turn you must move to an adjacent square and before initiating the bull rush. I would say this also applies to larger creatures with reach - for example, a Huge giant with 15 foot reach would still have to be only 5 feet away from an enemy before he could bull rush it, but in that case he'd probably just charge. Also, for purposes of a bull rush you can't exceed your normal movement. In this case I would personal adjucate that any movement before the bull rush to close + the bull rush itself (in case of a very large bull rush) can be up to your total double move, but if you bull rush without first moving, and the bull rush itself is longer than a standard move, you can't move after that. Here's an example of what I mean. Character has speed of 30 and has really high strength. Enemy is small, and weak (Str 1), so the bull rush difference is huge Character starts adjacent to the opponent- If total bull rush would move 30 feet or less, you can finish it, and then move (provoking as normal). If total bull rush would be more than 30 feet (say the difference was 50 somehow). The character could move the oppoenent up to 50 and could not move any more, or could bull rush the 30 and then take a move action. Character does not start adjacent to the opponent- Character moves 15 feet to close and then bull rushes. If the bull rush result is more than 30 feet, the character can continue the bull rush as allowed by the result until total distance moved that turn is 60 feet (I might only allow this if charging) That's just how I would personally adjucate it. In any case, my earlier post specifies the the RAW says. Not even Spring attack allows you to Move - Bull Rush - Move in a single turn.