Bull Rush Clarification [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bull Rush Clarification [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sarm Ronan
02-27-06, 10:13 PM This is a rather silly question, but one that is so disputed that I had to come here to get a neutral perspective. Here's the problem in a nutshell: Does the Bull Rush special attack require an attack roll or is it simply a contest of strength?

In the description of the Bull Rush (see below) it clearly states that you can "make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack)" which clearly seems to denote an attack roll is required...but nowhere else does it mention what might happen if one fails this attack roll. (That's either because there isn't an attack roll to fail...or that you would handle it just like any other attack that misses...)

Instead you have this sentence: "Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space." So, that seems to state that the first thing you do to initiate a Bull Rush is to simply move into the occupied space...and that no attack roll is required to do so...hence the attack of opportunity and the opposed Strength checks follow. So which is it?

Here's the Bull Rush special attack description from the PHB 3.5e for reference:

BULL RUSH

You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge (see Charge, below). When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.)

Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.

Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)

If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.
draconic_swine
02-27-06, 11:28 PM From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush) (emphasis mine):

You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge.

So yes, a bullrush does require an attack roll.
kjenks
02-28-06, 08:16 AM No attack roll, just what the rules say.
jaelis
02-28-06, 08:51 AM Agreed with kjenks, there's no attack roll here. The line draconic_swine quotes is just to explain what kind of action a bull rush is. I don't know why they put in the parenthetical comment "(an attack)", but the rest of the text clearly explains how it works. I would take it to mean that a bull rush counts as an attack for purposes of, for instance, breaking an invisibility spell.
Raven Dark
02-28-06, 09:12 AM No attack roll at all.

The ability to bull rush is one of the most underused forms of attackin the game. Why neuter it more?
Sarm Ronan
02-28-06, 10:46 AM Thanks for all the advice. I was under the impression that there was no attack, but the Swashbuckler/Dread Pirate PC in my campaign recently went up against some well-trained orcs with Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush and was questioning the fact that he was getting pushed around quite a bit. He's so difficult to hit in normal combat I decided I'd use the orc grunts to push him towards the real threats (ogres and orc leader).

The PC was getting knocked about at least once every round during that particular combat and decided to ask (politely) why I wasn't making attack rolls while he was being Bull Rushed. I didn't want to disrupt combat so I gave a quick interpretation of Bull Rush and said we could talk about it afterwards. So, at the end of the session there was a debate and I said I'd check it out online. I was surprised to find that this particular question hadn't come up before (at least not in any of the forums I've visited), as there is obviously some confusion about the wording. Thanks again for all the help!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sarm Ronan 02-27-06, 10:13 PM	This is a rather silly question, but one that is so disputed that I had to come here to get a neutral perspective. Here's the problem in a nutshell: Does the Bull Rush special attack require an attack roll or is it simply a contest of strength? In the description of the Bull Rush (see below) it clearly states that you can "make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack)" which clearly seems to denote an attack roll is required...but nowhere else does it mention what might happen if one fails this attack roll. (That's either because there isn't an attack roll to fail...or that you would handle it just like any other attack that misses...) Instead you have this sentence: "Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space." So, that seems to state that the first thing you do to initiate a Bull Rush is to simply move into the occupied space...and that no attack roll is required to do so...hence the attack of opportunity and the opposed Strength checks follow. So which is it? Here's the Bull Rush special attack description from the PHB 3.5e for reference: BULL RUSH You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge (see Charge, below). When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.) Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable. Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.) If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.
draconic_swine 02-27-06, 11:28 PM	From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush) (emphasis mine): You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. So yes, a bullrush does require an attack roll.
kjenks 02-28-06, 08:16 AM	No attack roll, just what the rules say.
jaelis 02-28-06, 08:51 AM	Agreed with kjenks, there's no attack roll here. The line draconic_swine quotes is just to explain what kind of action a bull rush is. I don't know why they put in the parenthetical comment "(an attack)", but the rest of the text clearly explains how it works. I would take it to mean that a bull rush counts as an attack for purposes of, for instance, breaking an invisibility spell.
Raven Dark 02-28-06, 09:12 AM	No attack roll at all. The ability to bull rush is one of the most underused forms of attackin the game. Why neuter it more?
Sarm Ronan 02-28-06, 10:46 AM	Thanks for all the advice. I was under the impression that there was no attack, but the Swashbuckler/Dread Pirate PC in my campaign recently went up against some well-trained orcs with Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush and was questioning the fact that he was getting pushed around quite a bit. He's so difficult to hit in normal combat I decided I'd use the orc grunts to push him towards the real threats (ogres and orc leader). The PC was getting knocked about at least once every round during that particular combat and decided to ask (politely) why I wasn't making attack rolls while he was being Bull Rushed. I didn't want to disrupt combat so I gave a quick interpretation of Bull Rush and said we could talk about it afterwards. So, at the end of the session there was a debate and I said I'd check it out online. I was surprised to find that this particular question hadn't come up before (at least not in any of the forums I've visited), as there is obviously some confusion about the wording. Thanks again for all the help!