Bull Rush, Overrun, and ... Baseball? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bull Rush, Overrun, and ... Baseball? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xeviat-DM
08-06-06, 07:53 PM I have been working at improving the rules system for a while. My largest project has been changing the slot based spell mechanic to an MP based mechanic (following in the footsteps of the XPH), while my second pet project has been improving feats so they are all on even footing.

While looking through the feats, Improved Bull Rush and Improved Overrun caught my eye. Why, do you ask? It was because I have never once in 5 years of playing 3rd Edition seen a player take these feats; I've seen a player use these manuevers without feats on a few occasions, but never have they taken the feats.

Why is this? I think it is because Bull Rush and Overrun are far too situational of maneuvers to see frequent use. Their largest problem is that their value is in the DM's hands, much like favored enemy; a player has little ability to make Bull Rush or Overrun useful, their value is based on terran and mission objectives. Yes, I am aware that there are a few tactical feats which allow these abilities to be used to better ability, but raw PHB only they seem subpar (by virtue primarily of theinfreqency of their selection).

I think Overrun can be easily improved by putting a damage mechanic in it; when a mount overrun/tramples a foe, they take hoof damage after all. Think about it, if you shoulder rush someone with enough force to knock them down, I'm pretty sure they're going to be hurt a bit in the process. I'll put this on the back burner now, though, because Bull Rush is the real target of this thread.

The only time Bull Rush is exceptionally useful is when players are fighting near a cliff. But this normally rare occasion alone doesn't make the manuever worth while. Taking a look at the real world, I can think of several uses for pushing someone away; when environmental conditions make one area hazardous (such as quicksand, cliffs, ect.), when terrain may help you push someone over (if debre or clutter lined the floor, someone could stumble if you pushed them into it), and when you're trying to keep someone away from someone/somewhere. Of these three, two of them can currently be used in game, but there is no ability to push someone into obstructions to make them fall. That's possible change #1.

Thinking on pushing a little more, I noticed that there is no damage involved in Bull Rush at all, even if you push someone into a wall. If someone pushes you with enough force to be able to run with you and carry you back, if you're stopped by a wall you should probably take some damage. That's possible change #2.

Then my thought process got a little stranger. While thinking about action movies, video games, cartoons, and other forms of violent entertainment, I remembered several instances of exceptionally strong individuals batting weaker individuals away with impunity. Yes, the Mighty Blow feat exists ... but I don't think this should take a feat. Take a second to think about it ... have you ever played soccer, golf, baseball, tenis, or any sport? Think about kicking a ball, hitting a ball with a bat, club, or racket ... the ball moves away from you when you hit it. This doesn't take exceptional training, it's a simple mechanic.

Now, doing something similar to a creature the same size as you would be difficult, but not impossible for the very strong. I'm not sure if this in itself should require exceptional training (a feat), but that's what I'm here for.

So, the proposition that I came to was to potentially change Bull Rush to Knock-Back:

Knock-Back: As a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity, you can attempt a powerful blow with a melee weapon or unarmed strike that, if successful, may knock the target away.
You suffer a -4 attack penalty when performing a knock-back; the attack must be placed precisely and is easy to see coming. If the attack roll is successful, the target takes damage normally and must then make a strength check (DC = damage dealt by the attack, with bonuses for being larger than medium or penalties for being smaller than medium, as with grapple) or be pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 points they fail the strength check by, they may be knocked back an additional 5 feet (the attacker may choose to push them back less distance).
Alternately, you may attempt a knock-back with a push rather than an attack. Instead of making a melee attack at a -4 penalty, you attempt a melee touch attack at no penalty (this still provokes an attack of opportunity). If the touch attack is successful, the attacker and defender make opposed strength checks (with bonuses for being larger than medium or penalties for being smaller than medium, as with grapple); if the defender fails this opposed check, they are pushed back 5 feet, plus an additional 5 feet for every 5 points they failed their check. (The attacker needs to gain some sort of bonus if they choose to continue with them).
If the defender's movement carrys them into an immovable object (such as a wall), both the defender and object suffer 1d6 damage for every 10 points the defender failed their strength check (objects typically have hardness, which applies vs. this damage). If the defender's movement carrys them into the space of a creature, that creature may make a DC 15 reflex save to avoid this same damage; if successful, the defender continues their movement.

The language could be cleaned up, but I think you might get the picture.

My reasoning for allowing the knock-back/push to push the target further than 5 feet is due to the sports analagy; the distance from homeplate to first or third base is 70ish feet, and batters typically hit the ball at least this far before it hits the ground; even a barely proficiant batter can manage this. Sure, the ball is an object (and thus has an effective strength of 0, or a -5 strength modifier, a -12 size modifier for being diminunative, and should automatically get a result of 0 on their strength check; this gives the baseball a total -17 on their strength check, but I still don't think a batter is going to deal 53 damage to the ball in order to send it flying 70 feet, much less 300 feet to get a homerun).

While making d20 rules for baseball may seem like a waste of time, i think it can be used as an adiquate measuring stick to gauge this maneuver; I think the bullrush rules work fine for people (and I don't think weight needs to be brought in, because heavier creatures tend to have higher strength or at least gain stability/quadraped bonuses, and larger creatures get bonuses too).

So, what do you think? Could Bull Rush be changed to Knock-Back, with a push option? Do you think that would make the manuever utilized more? Can it be balanced?
armnaxis
08-07-06, 03:27 AM Hi,

I think your knock-back feat is nice and may work as written; you should play-test it. Might spice things up a bit. What about AoO while beeing thrown/pushed back? (Be weary about the acient dragon who takes this feat...)

Though, it should not work the same on objects. For instance, both a baseball and an orange are objects with no Str score, but if hit with a bat they perform, uh, different. Thing is, physics are a bit more complicated - density, weight, flexibility and impact resistance all matter. You *might* be able to deduce rules for batting objects based on density and hardness, but, uh, i would use the ranged combat rules for thrown objects (adjust range increment).
Salla
08-07-06, 03:35 AM I almost always take Improved Bull Rush if I'm doing a Power Attack fighter. It's actually useful for one other, fairly frequent situation that occurs in combat: Someone's just open a gigantic can on one of your teammates and they can't take much more, so you bull rush them away from your teammate. I've also used it to shove someone towards a teammate so he can make a full attack action ... or shoved someone into flanking position for our party rogue.
Xeviat-DM
08-07-06, 07:31 PM I'm not suggesting this as a feat, I'm suggesting a fundamental change to the Bull Rush maneuver. Bull Rush as it is now would be the "push" option of the "knock-back" maneuver, and Improved Knock-Back would be different.

But you're right about the difference between a baseball and an orange. A baseball seems to have high resilance to bludgeoning impacts; could that be because of hardness or DR/slashing or piercing on the part of the baseball? Again, I was just using baseball as an example of a "knock-back" attack that someone who isn't exceptionally skilled can do (as my justification of it not being a feat).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 08-06-06, 07:53 PM	I have been working at improving the rules system for a while. My largest project has been changing the slot based spell mechanic to an MP based mechanic (following in the footsteps of the XPH), while my second pet project has been improving feats so they are all on even footing. While looking through the feats, Improved Bull Rush and Improved Overrun caught my eye. Why, do you ask? It was because I have never once in 5 years of playing 3rd Edition seen a player take these feats; I've seen a player use these manuevers without feats on a few occasions, but never have they taken the feats. Why is this? I think it is because Bull Rush and Overrun are far too situational of maneuvers to see frequent use. Their largest problem is that their value is in the DM's hands, much like favored enemy; a player has little ability to make Bull Rush or Overrun useful, their value is based on terran and mission objectives. Yes, I am aware that there are a few tactical feats which allow these abilities to be used to better ability, but raw PHB only they seem subpar (by virtue primarily of theinfreqency of their selection). I think Overrun can be easily improved by putting a damage mechanic in it; when a mount overrun/tramples a foe, they take hoof damage after all. Think about it, if you shoulder rush someone with enough force to knock them down, I'm pretty sure they're going to be hurt a bit in the process. I'll put this on the back burner now, though, because Bull Rush is the real target of this thread. The only time Bull Rush is exceptionally useful is when players are fighting near a cliff. But this normally rare occasion alone doesn't make the manuever worth while. Taking a look at the real world, I can think of several uses for pushing someone away; when environmental conditions make one area hazardous (such as quicksand, cliffs, ect.), when terrain may help you push someone over (if debre or clutter lined the floor, someone could stumble if you pushed them into it), and when you're trying to keep someone away from someone/somewhere. Of these three, two of them can currently be used in game, but there is no ability to push someone into obstructions to make them fall. That's possible change #1. Thinking on pushing a little more, I noticed that there is no damage involved in Bull Rush at all, even if you push someone into a wall. If someone pushes you with enough force to be able to run with you and carry you back, if you're stopped by a wall you should probably take some damage. That's possible change #2. Then my thought process got a little stranger. While thinking about action movies, video games, cartoons, and other forms of violent entertainment, I remembered several instances of exceptionally strong individuals batting weaker individuals away with impunity. Yes, the Mighty Blow feat exists ... but I don't think this should take a feat. Take a second to think about it ... have you ever played soccer, golf, baseball, tenis, or any sport? Think about kicking a ball, hitting a ball with a bat, club, or racket ... the ball moves away from you when you hit it. This doesn't take exceptional training, it's a simple mechanic. Now, doing something similar to a creature the same size as you would be difficult, but not impossible for the very strong. I'm not sure if this in itself should require exceptional training (a feat), but that's what I'm here for. So, the proposition that I came to was to potentially change Bull Rush to Knock-Back: Knock-Back: As a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity, you can attempt a powerful blow with a melee weapon or unarmed strike that, if successful, may knock the target away. You suffer a -4 attack penalty when performing a knock-back; the attack must be placed precisely and is easy to see coming. If the attack roll is successful, the target takes damage normally and must then make a strength check (DC = damage dealt by the attack, with bonuses for being larger than medium or penalties for being smaller than medium, as with grapple) or be pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 points they fail the strength check by, they may be knocked back an additional 5 feet (the attacker may choose to push them back less distance). Alternately, you may attempt a knock-back with a push rather than an attack. Instead of making a melee attack at a -4 penalty, you attempt a melee touch attack at no penalty (this still provokes an attack of opportunity). If the touch attack is successful, the attacker and defender make opposed strength checks (with bonuses for being larger than medium or penalties for being smaller than medium, as with grapple); if the defender fails this opposed check, they are pushed back 5 feet, plus an additional 5 feet for every 5 points they failed their check. (The attacker needs to gain some sort of bonus if they choose to continue with them). If the defender's movement carrys them into an immovable object (such as a wall), both the defender and object suffer 1d6 damage for every 10 points the defender failed their strength check (objects typically have hardness, which applies vs. this damage). If the defender's movement carrys them into the space of a creature, that creature may make a DC 15 reflex save to avoid this same damage; if successful, the defender continues their movement. The language could be cleaned up, but I think you might get the picture. My reasoning for allowing the knock-back/push to push the target further than 5 feet is due to the sports analagy; the distance from homeplate to first or third base is 70ish feet, and batters typically hit the ball at least this far before it hits the ground; even a barely proficiant batter can manage this. Sure, the ball is an object (and thus has an effective strength of 0, or a -5 strength modifier, a -12 size modifier for being diminunative, and should automatically get a result of 0 on their strength check; this gives the baseball a total -17 on their strength check, but I still don't think a batter is going to deal 53 damage to the ball in order to send it flying 70 feet, much less 300 feet to get a homerun). While making d20 rules for baseball may seem like a waste of time, i think it can be used as an adiquate measuring stick to gauge this maneuver; I think the bullrush rules work fine for people (and I don't think weight needs to be brought in, because heavier creatures tend to have higher strength or at least gain stability/quadraped bonuses, and larger creatures get bonuses too). So, what do you think? Could Bull Rush be changed to Knock-Back, with a push option? Do you think that would make the manuever utilized more? Can it be balanced?
armnaxis 08-07-06, 03:27 AM	Hi, I think your knock-back feat is nice and may work as written; you should play-test it. Might spice things up a bit. What about AoO while beeing thrown/pushed back? (Be weary about the acient dragon who takes this feat...) Though, it should not work the same on objects. For instance, both a baseball and an orange are objects with no Str score, but if hit with a bat they perform, uh, different. Thing is, physics are a bit more complicated - density, weight, flexibility and impact resistance all matter. You might be able to deduce rules for batting objects based on density and hardness, but, uh, i would use the ranged combat rules for thrown objects (adjust range increment).
Salla 08-07-06, 03:35 AM	I almost always take Improved Bull Rush if I'm doing a Power Attack fighter. It's actually useful for one other, fairly frequent situation that occurs in combat: Someone's just open a gigantic can on one of your teammates and they can't take much more, so you bull rush them away from your teammate. I've also used it to shove someone towards a teammate so he can make a full attack action ... or shoved someone into flanking position for our party rogue.
Xeviat-DM 08-07-06, 07:31 PM	I'm not suggesting this as a feat, I'm suggesting a fundamental change to the Bull Rush maneuver. Bull Rush as it is now would be the "push" option of the "knock-back" maneuver, and Improved Knock-Back would be different. But you're right about the difference between a baseball and an orange. A baseball seems to have high resilance to bludgeoning impacts; could that be because of hardness or DR/slashing or piercing on the part of the baseball? Again, I was just using baseball as an example of a "knock-back" attack that someone who isn't exceptionally skilled can do (as my justification of it not being a feat).